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Offline MrsZ

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How Catholics ought to dress (email from SSPX)
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2015, 06:10:53 PM »
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  • I think it's a nice instinct to want to assume young women in their teens and twenties just don't know what they're wearing or how it affects men.  But iId on't believe it's true.  A child, maybe ... and I know children are now wearing whatever is fashionable to ape their older sisters or celebrities.  Some children who've been corrupted by those same celebs / movies / tv / music ... probably unfortunately know as well.  

    But for women in adolescence and beyond know that they are emphasizing their bodies in a way that causes attention.   It's hardwired into to us to seek to get attention-approval from a man for our appearance.  If we are raised to believe that immodest dressing is the most powerful way to do that, we do that.

    I don't think women need to know the specific details of what this physically or mentally or spiritually does to a man to know that it's something they are getting an enormous payoff in regard to their own pride and vanity.  

    And for SaintAlice ...my unfortunate experience has been that all men look at women's backsides.  All of the them, all the time.  They just have learned to not be obvious about it.  And if a woman is walking somewhere in tight pants and  people walking  or standing behind her , rest assured that everyone, men and women alike, are looking at her backside.  

    And it's not just attractive young women either.  FAt or thin, young or old ... wearing pants ... everyone's backsides are on display.  It's just that most women could care less about men's backsides. At the N.O. parish we attend, rows and rows of women, young and old alike wearing pants ... big backsides, small backsides, all with pockets, or pockets with designs or things on them to DRAW ATTENTION to their backsides!

    It's like we're all baboons anymore....sending out the mating call.

    Gross.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    « Reply #16 on: June 24, 2015, 08:28:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey




    Yes, Dressing with Dignity is a good book.
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    How Catholics ought to dress (email from SSPX)
    « Reply #17 on: June 24, 2015, 08:36:52 PM »
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  • This is from Our Lady of the Rosary Library.  

    IF YOU ASK ME ABOUT...
    Women's Pantsuits
    Sewell Hall
    Understand, no one has asked me about pant-suits.  No one except a preacher or two wondering how we should approach the subject.  And perhaps a parent or two wondering whether to permit their daughters to wear them.  But no one who was wearing them, or contemplating wearing them, has ever asked me about them.

    It's not that I want to be asked.  I just wonder if older women are being asked by younger women about them.  I wonder if mothers are being asked about them.  I wonder if women who begin wearing them even ask themselves about them – whether they are right or wrong, good or bad.  It seems to me that most women these days simply follow blindly wherever fashion leads.  But Christian women, realizing that fashion is in the hands of worldly people, need to question every innovation fashion offers.

    But if anyone did ask me, I suppose my answer would vary according to the person asking.  In giving different answers to different types of people, I would be in good company.  Jesus practiced that.

    Different Answers
    If a lady wearing one of the short, short miniskirt fashions should ask me about pant-suits, I would probably say, "Yes, yes."  If it is a choice between pantsuits and mini-skirts, the former are much to be preferred.  It is my conviction, based on abundant evidence, that the short skirts are the most immodest and morally degrading fashion ever to be generally accepted in this country.  I blush to think that Christian women have allowed themselves to be bamboozled into wearing a garment so clearly inspired by the devil.

    If I should be asked about pant-suits by the kind of person who will abstain from those things that can be proved to be immoral and immodest within themselves, I would probable make no effort to sustain a position.  I cannot charge that they are conducive to lustful thinking or immodest in that way.  The other objections that I would raise would probably have little or no effect on such a person.  So why waste time and effort?

    But if my querist is one who is very conscientious about being the best possible Christian; one who wants to abstain from every appearance of evil; one who wants to maintain a perfectly wholesome influence regardless of her fashion image; then I have somewhat to say.  Such a woman will understand the following objections:

    Objections
    They reflect the Unisex Movement.  Under the heading, "The Pantsuit:  Hemline Controversy" the 1970 Compton Encyclopedia Yearbook states on page 249:  "Paris couturier Jacques Esterel states that 'identification of the sexes in terms of clothes will become a thing of the past.'  He designed identical tunic and pants outfits for father, mother, and child."  The next sentence calls these "unisex clothes."  Hand in hand with this effort of the unisex movement to break down distinctions in appearance between the sexes is its effort to elevate ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity to respectability.  Both goals are an abomination in the sight of God.  God's purpose that men and women dress distinctly is clearly reflected in both the Old and New Testaments (Deut. 22:5; 1 Cor. 11:1-16).  The latter passage also requires distinctive hair lengths for the sexes.  When men begin wearing long hair and ruffles as women shorten their hair and put on pants, it is obvious that Satan is having his way.  It is not God's plan.  It is a movement in the wrong direction.
    They reflect the influence of the Women's Liberation Movement.  This movement objects to the distinction between masculine and feminine spheres.  It rejects the God assigned responsibility of women to "bear children, guide the house" (1 Tim, 5:14):  "to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands" (Titus 2:5).  It maintains that whatever a man may do, a women may do.  Therefore, she has both the reason and the right to dress like a man.  This is but an extension of the movement that earlier put women in slacks, with a cigarette in one hand, a cocktail in the other, and curses and obscenities on the lips.  Neither men nor women have a right to practice such things.  It is a movement to enslavement rather than liberation.  It is a movement in rebellion against God.  Christian women will want to avoid any appearance of sympathy with it.
    They encourage immodest posture and habits.  It seems to this writer that the wearing of slacks, jeans, and other masculine types of apparel tends to encourage a coarser, more boisterous, less feminine disposition and bearing.  This, we admit, is a rather subjective opinion, but it is shared by many others of our acquaintance.
    Beware of the Devil's Craftiness
    The devil's craftiness is amazing indeed.  He shifts from one position to another.  Just when we get our guns aimed at dancing because of its intimate embrace, he comes up with dances that involve no physical contact, but only indecent movements.  Just as we apply the Sword of the Spirit to the indecent exposure of mini fashions, he introduces cover-up fashions objectionable on other grounds.  No wonder many are deceived!

    Christian women (and men as well), if they would remain free of the devil's devices, must learn to hold off from new fads until they can determine whether the devil is behind them – and if he is, what he is up to.  The person who just must be like the world, just must be in style, just must keep up with what is IN – that person is just the kind the devil finds easy prey.

    Padre Pio on Women's Dress
    from Prophet of the People,
    by Dorothy M. Gaudiose, pp. 191-2
    Women received especially rough treatment from Padre Pio because of current fashions.  He had always been a merciless enemy of feminine vanity.  "Vanity," he said, "is the son of pride, and is even more malignant than its mother.  Have you ever seen a field of ripe corn?  Some ears are tall; others are bent to the ground.  Try taking the tallest, the proudest ones, and you will see that they are empty; but if you take the smallest, the humblest ones, they are laden with seeds.  From this you can see that vanity is empty."

    Padre Pio wouldn't tolerate low-necked dresses or short, tight skirts, and he forbade his spiritual daughters to wear transparent stockings.  Each year his severity increased.  He stubbornly dismissed them from his confessional, even before they set foot inside, if he judged them to be improperly dressed.  On some mornings he drove away one after another, until he ended up hearing very few confessions.

    His brothers observed these drastic purges with a certain uneasiness and decided to fasten a sign on the church door:  "By Padre Pio's explicit wish, women must enter his confessional wearing skirts at least eight inches below the knees.  It is forbidden to borrow longer dresses in church and to wear them for the confessional."

    The last warning was not without effect.  There was a furtive exchange of skirts, blouses, and raincoats, that took place at the last moment in the half-lit church to remedy any failings.

    The women made their adjustments, but perhaps not exactly enough.  Padre Pio continued to send some away before giving them a chance to confess.  He would glower at them and grumble, "Go and get dressed."  And sometimes he added, "Clowns!"  He spared no one...  Persons he saw for the first time, or his long-time spiritual daughters.  Often the skirts were decidedly many inches below the knees, but not sufficiently long for his moral severity.

    As the years began to weigh on Padre Pio, his daily hours in the confessional were limited to four, equally divided between men and women.  In addition to being dressed properly, they had to know the Italian language, even though he could somehow understand people speaking another language.  But he knew Italian, Latin, and very little French, consistently refusing to hear confessions except in Italian or Latin.

    Sometimes when Padre Pio refused to absolve his penitents and closed the small confessional door in their faces, the people would reproach him asking why he acted this way.  "Don't you know," he asked, "what pain it costs me to shut the door on anyone?  The Lord has forced me to do so.  I do not call anyone, nor do I refuse anyone either.  There is someone else who calls and refuses them.  I am His useless tool."

    Even the men had rules to follow.  They were not permitted to enter the church with three-quarter length sleeves.  Boys as well as men had to wear long trousers at church, if they didn't want to be shown out of church, that is.  But women in short skirts were his prime targets.  Padre Pio's citadel was perhaps the only place in the world where the fashions of the 1930s still ruled in the 1960s.

    (Do you recall what Our Lady of Fatima said about "certain fashions?")

    Take the Modesty Pledge!
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    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    How Catholics ought to dress (email from SSPX)
    « Reply #18 on: June 24, 2015, 09:13:14 PM »
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  • Pledge To Bring Christian Women
    Back To Decency In Dress

    Purpose:  It is no accident that the terrible immoral trend in our nation and the world at large should coincide with shameless fashions in dress.  The women of any nation help determine its morals.  So it is to the (professing) Christian women that this pledge is directed.  Most Christian women cannot be discerned from the worldly unbelievers in their style of dress.

    "In like manner I wish women to be decently dressed, adorning themselves with modesty and dignity." (1 Tim. 2:9) A true Christian, as St. Paul admonishes, will not indulge in any freedom if he causes his brother to sin. Well might we say, "If any unseemly dress fashions lead men to sin, I will not dress so."



    THE PLEDGE

    Realizing that you simply cannot promote modesty without standards, I pledge to do my part in restoring a true Christian example by adopting the following dress code:

    I pledge to wear dress or skirts that extend well below the knees in any posture. My dresses will not be sleeveless or have low necklines.
    I pledge not to wear trousers, slacks, or shorts as this apparel is not pleasing to God: "A woman shall not be clothed with man's apparel neither shall a man use woman's apparel: for he that doeth these things is abominable before God." (Deut. 22:5)
    I will keep this pledge with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ regardless of the spirit of the times.
    Signed______________________________
    www.olrl.org/virtues/
    Home
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline shin

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    How Catholics ought to dress (email from SSPX)
    « Reply #19 on: June 24, 2015, 09:48:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
    Pledge To Bring Christian Women
    Back To Decency In Dress

    Purpose:  It is no accident that the terrible immoral trend in our nation and the world at large should coincide with shameless fashions in dress.  The women of any nation help determine its morals.  So it is to the (professing) Christian women that this pledge is directed.  Most Christian women cannot be discerned from the worldly unbelievers in their style of dress.

    "In like manner I wish women to be decently dressed, adorning themselves with modesty and dignity." (1 Tim. 2:9) A true Christian, as St. Paul admonishes, will not indulge in any freedom if he causes his brother to sin. Well might we say, "If any unseemly dress fashions lead men to sin, I will not dress so."



    THE PLEDGE

    Realizing that you simply cannot promote modesty without standards, I pledge to do my part in restoring a true Christian example by adopting the following dress code:

    I pledge to wear dress or skirts that extend well below the knees in any posture. My dresses will not be sleeveless or have low necklines.
    I pledge not to wear trousers, slacks, or shorts as this apparel is not pleasing to God: "A woman shall not be clothed with man's apparel neither shall a man use woman's apparel: for he that doeth these things is abominable before God." (Deut. 22:5)
    I will keep this pledge with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ regardless of the spirit of the times.
    Signed______________________________
    www.olrl.org/virtues/
    Home


    This is really splendid!
    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-


    Offline clare

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    How Catholics ought to dress (email from SSPX)
    « Reply #20 on: June 25, 2015, 01:28:10 AM »
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  • Quote
    Objections
    They reflect the Unisex Movement. Under the heading, "The Pantsuit: Hemline Controversy" the 1970 Compton Encyclopedia Yearbook states on page 249: "Paris couturier Jacques Esterel states that 'identification of the sexes in terms of clothes will become a thing of the past.'...

    Thing is, while there are undoubtedly women who dress masculinely and men who dress femininely, there is more to clothing than one item, in this case trousers. Is a woman with a long floral blouse, and feminine shoes, suddenly dressing like a man if she also happens to be wearing trousers which are clearly feminine in design? And is a man who also happens to be wearing the same combination I just described, dressed appropriately for a man simply because he has trousers on? The whole ensemble needs to be taken into account.


    Offline Meg

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    « Reply #21 on: June 25, 2015, 11:57:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: MrsZ


    And it's not just attractive young women either.  FAt or thin, young or old ... wearing pants ... everyone's backsides are on display.  It's just that most women could care less about men's backsides. At the N.O. parish we attend, rows and rows of women, young and old alike wearing pants ... big backsides, small backsides, all with pockets, or pockets with designs or things on them to DRAW ATTENTION to their backsides!

    It's like we're all baboons anymore....sending out the mating call.

    Gross.


    You are SO right. I attend the NO, for the most part, and one of the more unpleasant aspects of is that many women and some men wear tight-fitting pants to Mass. I can't help but notice when they are in front of me at Mass. Yuck!

    You're right about us (well, non-trads, that is) being all baboons - sending out the mating call. It's awful.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Alexandria

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    How Catholics ought to dress (email from SSPX)
    « Reply #22 on: June 25, 2015, 12:56:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: MrsZ
    I think it's a nice instinct to want to assume young women in their teens and twenties just don't know what they're wearing or how it affects men.  But iId on't believe it's true.  A child, maybe ... and I know children are now wearing whatever is fashionable to ape their older sisters or celebrities.  Some children who've been corrupted by those same celebs / movies / tv / music ... probably unfortunately know as well.  

    But for women in adolescence and beyond know that they are emphasizing their bodies in a way that causes attention.   It's hardwired into to us to seek to get attention-approval from a man for our appearance.  If we are raised to believe that immodest dressing is the most powerful way to do that, we do that.

    I don't think women need to know the specific details of what this physically or mentally or spiritually does to a man to know that it's something they are getting an enormous payoff in regard to their own pride and vanity.  

    And for SaintAlice ...my unfortunate experience has been that all men look at women's backsides.  All of the them, all the time.  They just have learned to not be obvious about it.  And if a woman is walking somewhere in tight pants and  people walking  or standing behind her , rest assured that everyone, men and women alike, are looking at her backside.  

    And it's not just attractive young women either.  FAt or thin, young or old ... wearing pants ... everyone's backsides are on display.  It's just that most women could care less about men's backsides. At the N.O. parish we attend, rows and rows of women, young and old alike wearing pants ... big backsides, small backsides, all with pockets, or pockets with designs or things on them to DRAW ATTENTION to their backsides!

    It's like we're all baboons anymore....sending out the mating call.

    Gross.


    Wonderful post, Mrs. Z, and I couldn't agree more.  Women young and old need to wake up.  No more shame left in them.  The grossest are the young ladies who are pregnant with skin tight tops over their stomach.  Where is the dignity of motherhood in that vulgar display?


    Offline Alexandria

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    « Reply #23 on: June 25, 2015, 01:01:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    At our chapel the only women I have EVER seen without a veil and wearing pants are the odd NO'ers who stumble in unaware that they are not at any ordinary new order church.  They really stand out with their spandex leggings, tight tank tops and flip-flops!


    That reminds me of one couple we saw at the SSPX chapel one Sunday about ten years ago.   Where they came from I do not know, but they, as you wrote, apparently stumbled in unaware that the church was not your typical anything goes parish in novus ordo-ville.    The both of them were dressed as if they were about to go fishing.  She had pants on and nothing on her head.  What got me is that they both went up to Holy Communion.  Nothing wrong with that and maybe it's just me, but had it been me, I would have been mortified at the way I was dressed and not having my head covered and would not have called further attention to myself by traipsing up the aisle to receive.

    Offline Alexandria

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    « Reply #24 on: June 25, 2015, 01:08:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria
    Quote from: Marlelar
    At our chapel the only women I have EVER seen without a veil and wearing pants are the odd NO'ers who stumble in unaware that they are not at any ordinary new order church.  They really stand out with their spandex leggings, tight tank tops and flip-flops!


    That reminds me of one couple we saw at the SSPX chapel one Sunday about ten years ago.   Where they came from I do not know, but they, as you wrote, apparently stumbled in unaware that the church was not your typical anything goes parish in novus ordo-ville.    The both of them were dressed as if they were about to go fishing.  She had pants on and nothing on her head.  What got me is that they both went up to Holy Communion.  Nothing wrong with that and maybe it's just me, but had it been me, I would have been mortified at the way I was dressed and not having my head covered and would not have called further attention to myself by traipsing up the aisle to receive.


    Just wanted to add to this post that I think that goes along with an absence of any sense of shame in either men or women anymore.  Everyone has "rights" these days.  Everyone.   :rolleyes:

    Offline jen51

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    « Reply #25 on: June 25, 2015, 01:10:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria
     The grossest are the young ladies who are pregnant with skin tight tops over their stomach.  Where is the dignity of motherhood in that vulgar display?


    This is the trend among pregnant mothers. It's an attention seeking thing. Look at me, look at me, I'm pregnant! I find it very off-putting. Immodest, too.

    As to women in pants, especially jeans, even putting modesty aside.... they just don't look good. Jeans and most pants are not flattering on women- it doesn't matter what kind of woman is wearing them. Also, I find pants incredibly uncomfortable. I quit wearing them a couple years ago for the most part, but wear them from time to time while doing rigorous outdoor tasks. A couple weeks ago I wore pants to do something outside and ended up coming back in to change into a skirt, not caring if it got ripped, torn, or stained because I found the pants so incredibly uncomfortable!
    Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.
    ~James 1:27


    Offline Ladislaus

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    How Catholics ought to dress (email from SSPX)
    « Reply #26 on: June 25, 2015, 01:14:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: MrsZ
    It's just that most women could care less about men's backsides.


    And for some reason the women invariably wear these tight-fitting pants with thinner material whereas men tend to wear thicker materials that don't accentuate the rear end (although there are some exceptions).

    Whether women "care" about it or not, it's also inappropriate for men to wear tight pants.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    « Reply #27 on: June 25, 2015, 01:36:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: shin
    Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
    Pledge To Bring Christian Women
    Back To Decency In Dress

    Purpose:  It is no accident that the terrible immoral trend in our nation and the world at large should coincide with shameless fashions in dress.  The women of any nation help determine its morals.  So it is to the (professing) Christian women that this pledge is directed.  Most Christian women cannot be discerned from the worldly unbelievers in their style of dress.

    "In like manner I wish women to be decently dressed, adorning themselves with modesty and dignity." (1 Tim. 2:9) A true Christian, as St. Paul admonishes, will not indulge in any freedom if he causes his brother to sin. Well might we say, "If any unseemly dress fashions lead men to sin, I will not dress so."



    THE PLEDGE

    Realizing that you simply cannot promote modesty without standards, I pledge to do my part in restoring a true Christian example by adopting the following dress code:

    I pledge to wear dress or skirts that extend well below the knees in any posture. My dresses will not be sleeveless or have low necklines.
    I pledge not to wear trousers, slacks, or shorts as this apparel is not pleasing to God: "A woman shall not be clothed with man's apparel neither shall a man use woman's apparel: for he that doeth these things is abominable before God." (Deut. 22:5)
    I will keep this pledge with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ regardless of the spirit of the times.
    Signed______________________________
    www.olrl.org/virtues/
    Home


    This is really splendid!


    This pledge is from Our Lady of the Rosary Library.
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline tdrev123

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    How Catholics ought to dress (email from SSPX)
    « Reply #28 on: June 25, 2015, 02:44:11 PM »
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  • The majority of traditional organizations have been cowardly as how they approach modesty, they enforce the dress code but only at mass.  They will mention it in sermons or postings but they never actually talk about how a woman or man is supposed to dress outside of mass!  And thats because they know it will cause trouble...but it doesn't matter church teaching is church teaching.  

    If a priest or organization wrote an article or sermon about the actual church teaching of how we are supposed to dress outside of mass it would be far to catholic of a thing to do.
    In the 1950s and before people started to become a sunday only Catholic and that is essentially what most people are today that go to SSPX or sede churches.  

    I would say that the churches I have been to, more than half of the women wear pants regularly outside of mass...and the priests know this and they are silent as a cat.  


    Offline Alexandria

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    « Reply #29 on: June 25, 2015, 02:57:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: tdrev123
    The majority of traditional organizations have been cowardly as how they approach modesty, they enforce the dress code but only at mass.  They will mention it in sermons or postings but they never actually talk about how a woman or man is supposed to dress outside of mass!  And thats because they know it will cause trouble...but it doesn't matter church teaching is church teaching.  

    If a priest or organization wrote an article or sermon about the actual church teaching of how we are supposed to dress outside of mass it would be far to catholic of a thing to do.
    In the 1950s and before people started to become a sunday only Catholic and that is essentially what most people are today that go to SSPX or sede churches.  

    I would say that the churches I have been to, more than half of the women wear pants regularly outside of mass...and the priests know this and they are silent as a cat.  



    Agree with you as well.  Too much compromise with the world in most traditional chapels, and everyone has a good rationalization for whatever compromise.