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Author Topic: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX  (Read 21953 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
« Reply #270 on: November 18, 2019, 05:57:19 AM »
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  • I have no idea where everyone gets their immodesty standards from. Pius XI settled it already. If the skirt is barely below the knee, then it CANNOT be called decent. What is so complicated about this rule?!

    This is a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about.  I will make this post and then be done with this thread.  This is an utterly ridiculous oversimplification of moral theology ... and that's why laymen should not be imputing sin to others who do not measure up to how they have formed their own consciences.  It needs to be left up to priests who have been properly trained to guide people in their moral lives and who have the authority, right, and obligation to do so.

    Catholic Church teaches (based on divine law) that it's sinful to work on Sundays.  I see someone mowing his lawn on a Sunday and proceed to wag my finger (and tongue) at him that "look, a mortal sinner!"

    If this isn't exactly what the Pharisees did, then I don't know what is.

    But Catholic moral theologians teach that there can be proportionate reasons that justify working on Sundays, and the reason would be proportionate to the amount of work being done.  Is 5 minutes of work a mortal sin?  Is 15 minutes?  Catholic moral theologians generally give about 2 hours as a rule of thumb for when it would become a mortal sin.  But that's if you have no reason to do so.  If you go work 8 hours at a job because, say, you're an ER doctor and someone has to cover the ER, that's not a sin at all.  Or, if a man goes to work at a second job on the weekends (including Sundays) because he's struggling to pay his mortgage or other bills, then he may be permitted to do so.  If a man is mowing the yard of an elderly neighbor and doing it on Sunday because it's the only free time he has left, then that's permitted.  If someone needs to spend 10 minutes taking out garbage because Monday morning is their garbage pickup day, then that's permitted.  Some theologians say that it's permitted to go to a department store to buy things necessary for your own licit activities.

    Look, if you want to hire a "Sunday Jєω" so that you don't have to lift a finger on Sundays, that's your business, but don't wag your finger at someone and denounce them as a sinner simply because their conscience is not formed as rigorously as your own.

    Same kinds of proportionate reason standards apply to modesty.  The greater the immodesty, the graver the proportionate reason must be.  Unless there's some issue with these skirts flying up and showing panties, they are only slightly immodest and do not need a serious proportionate reason to justify doing them.  If some guy gets tempted to impure thoughts by a girl with a skirt/pant (whatever it is they're wearing) one inch above the knee while the knee itself is covered with a knee pad, then he's got bigger issues.  If someone believes that by wearing such an outfit a girl is practically a streetwalker and is being turned into a whore right before our eyes, then the person has some mental issues.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #271 on: November 18, 2019, 05:59:51 AM »
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  • Apart from trying to form your own consciences, leave moral theology to the priests.  Stop sitting in your theological armchairs denouncing everyone else as sinners, even when you don't know all the facts and details.  It's not your role and it's not your business.  If you wish to make your wife and daughters wear burqas out in public, then that's your business, but don't attempt to impose that on someone else.


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #272 on: November 18, 2019, 06:22:03 AM »
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  • Padre Pio said skirts and dresses 8 inches below the knee.  He refused to give a woman absolution because she had a clothing shop that sold ladies slacks.  
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #274 on: November 18, 2019, 08:28:31 AM »
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  • Oh, Ladislaus, now you're attacking those who disagree with you and charging that we're "imputing sin" on others?  You yourself said that, most likely a venial sin was committed by slightly immodest attire.  You discussed venial sin a few times on this thread. 
    .
    This discussion started off by talking about a REAL LIFE example, but then you muddied the waters by inserting theoretical principles and distracting from the discussion.  Now we're fully talking about theory and the mini-skirt picture you posted, and you've illogically circled back to saying we are "imputing sin" on others?  How, pray tell, does one impute sin on a hypothetical person?
    .
    You're all over the place on this.  You've gone back and forth between a real life example and theory and this thread could've made more sense if you could stick to one or the other.  ...or at least you could be more clear when you mentally switch, as many times, it's not clear.  Then you unnecessarily fight with people who are talking one vs the other.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #275 on: November 18, 2019, 08:33:37 AM »
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  • Quote
     Stop sitting in your theological armchairs denouncing everyone else as sinners, even when you don't know all the facts and details.  It's not your role and it's not your business.
    What people wear socially is public knowledge and is plain for all to see.  There are no "facts and details" which explain away immodest dress, except for extreme circuмstances.  99% of the time, what people wear is of their own choosing, so the only defense for immodest dress is a faulty conscience, which is not an moral excuse, because it's a form of ignorance that is morally culpable.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #276 on: November 18, 2019, 08:35:48 AM »
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  • Quote
    If some guy gets tempted to impure thoughts by a girl with a skirt/pant (whatever it is they're wearing) one inch above the knee while the knee itself is covered with a knee pad, then he's got bigger issues.  If someone believes that by wearing such an outfit a girl is practically a streetwalker and is being turned into a whore right before our eyes, then the person has some mental issues.
    You're arguing against the wind.  No one has said the above in any way.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #277 on: November 18, 2019, 09:39:50 AM »
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  • You're arguing against the wind.  No one has said the above in any way.
    He's been doing that this whole thread. To each his own, you can't change the way people process what they see in the world and how they react to it. Ladislaus processes what he sees and hears in the world through a moral theology book. I could post so many contradictions that he has posted here that I could start another thread. It is almost like his only source to make a decision is a moral theology book. One contradiction for example is that he says people here play moral theologian, meanwhile that is all he has been doing during the whole thread. Then he says that it is up to priests to tell us how to dress, and someone posts the rules of modesty by a bishop and another the rule of a saint, Padre Pio, and he totally rejects them. From my experience of 65 years of learning something everyday, there is nothing one can do to help a person who every time he has to make a decision has to consult a manual. Needless to say no one will learn anything from them because the muddle up everything so much that at the end the person listening doesn't even know what the teacher believes.  Like I said all along, on this subject of dress for women, he should just listen and just ask questions,but he never will. Like I said, to each his own.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #278 on: November 18, 2019, 10:02:57 AM »
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  • What people wear socially is public knowledge and is plain for all to see.  There are no "facts and details" which explain away immodest dress, except for extreme circuмstances.  99% of the time, what people wear is of their own choosing, so the only defense for immodest dress is a faulty conscience, which is not an moral excuse, because it's a form of ignorance that is morally culpable.
    It is good that he triggered you to respond like you have, I could post here all of your responses from the beginning to teach people modesty, and one would see how you went perfecting the methods of communication to get across to him and others. Keep up the good work.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #279 on: November 18, 2019, 10:53:11 AM »
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  • He's been doing that this whole thread. To each his own, you can't change the way people process what they see in the world and how they react to it. Ladislaus processes what he sees and hears in the world through a moral theology book. I could post so many contradictions that he has posted here that I could start another thread. It is almost like his only source to make a decision is a moral theology book. One contradiction for example is that he says people here play moral theologian, meanwhile that is all he has been doing during the whole thread. Then he says that it is up to priests to tell us how to dress, and someone posts the rules of modesty by a bishop and another the rule of a saint, Padre Pio, and he totally rejects them. From my experience of 65 years of learning something everyday, there is nothing one can do to help a person who every time he has to make a decision has to consult a manual. Needless to say no one will learn anything from them because the muddle up everything so much that at the end the person listening doesn't even know what the teacher believes.  Like I said all along, on this subject of dress for women, he should just listen and just ask questions,but he never will. Like I said, to each his own.
    My religious life consisted of being baptized at birth, First Communion and Confirmation without knowing anything but standing and sitting whenever everyone else did at mass. That was all before the Novus Ordo. I knew absolutely nothing about the faith. Then when I was like 13, I stopped going to mass altogether and went to live in the world till I was 42 years of age, making money and chasing bikini clad girls on tropical beaches. My life was making money, lifting weights to look "buff", and picking up bikini clad girls 18-23 years of age.  One day it dawned on me that I was a bad example to my 19 year old niece, there I was bringing different 19 year old girls to Thanksgiving every year (that's right, still doing it at 42). THEN I changed my life completely. I made a 180 degree turn and went to confession, mass and the books to learn the faith. I amassed  a library of over $5000 over the next 5 years and later met my wife at mass.

    I said all of that to show how a person can change their entire life completely. It was only by God's Grace that I changed. I will say that before I converted, all of my life, if someone showed me a better way to do something, I immediately dropped the old way. The only thing in my life that I am proud of is that. Most people never change anything in their lives (even the most minor thing like wearing a skirt a few inches longer) and the way they do things, they hit their heads on the same stone every day till they die.

    When I heard Bp. Wiiliamson teach that men should not wear shorts, I listened and stopped wearing shorts. Yesterday, on CI someone said that a priest told him that it is a mortal sin to say bad words, like the F-Bomb, he asked if that was true. The answer tells it all about how I think about living the faith:

    Quote
    If a priest said that swearing is a mortal sin, then I would stop swearing and confess my mortal sin. No big deal. You are not going to find me spending even one second finding out what the Moral Theology Books say, I could care less. It is not like he is asking me to cut off my arm.

    To answer your question, when I am in doubt about a mortal sin, I go and confess it as a mortal sin, and let God sort it out. And that's the last thought I give it.

    "Kill them all, let God sort them out"
    "It is not like they are asking me to cut off my arm", THAT is my moral theology book.

    Now, if a priest told me that I could wear shorts and flip-flop to mass, that is a laxity and it goes against my common sense, and I would not do it. I would not go to a meeting with a buyer at Home Depot to sell my products in shorts and flip-flops, and who the heck is the buyer compared to gong to God's House?


    If Padre Pio and all of the instructions on modest dressing that keep getting posted over and over say that a woman should not wear pants, tight form fitting clothes, dresses that show the knees when they sit, sleeves shorter than the half way between the elbow and shoulder..... what is the big deal? Why do women fight it? They are not asking you to cut off your arm.

    My mother (Novus Ordo), at 65 years of age, once asked me what exercise she could do so her biceps would look more firm in her sleeveless tops. I told her that it was a LOT of work, that it was easier to just wear a sleeve. The message is that most women do not have the physique to show off skin, they are not 18 year old fitness instructors or 1 in 1,000,000 teenage models. So, nobody is asking you to cut off your arms.

    That is my moral theology book, the real world and my experiences learned in it.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Frank

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #280 on: November 18, 2019, 12:20:55 PM »
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  • If you read how strongly St John Vianney opposed dancing 200 years ago, then ask yourself what he would do with a girl in a miniskirt playing sports, you will come to a definitive answer about the whole issue.
    The BVM held him up as THE model priest. We should listen to her and him.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #281 on: November 18, 2019, 06:16:57 PM »
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  • If you read how strongly St John Vianney opposed dancing 200 years ago, then ask yourself what he would do with a girl in a miniskirt playing sports, you will come to a definitive answer about the whole issue.
    The BVM held him up as THE model priest. We should listen to her and him.
    :applause:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #282 on: November 18, 2019, 07:27:29 PM »
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  • Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #283 on: November 18, 2019, 08:09:56 PM »
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  • Was it three dead horses that we beat  :confused:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #284 on: January 06, 2020, 10:50:13 AM »
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  • I wonder what happened with this.
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