No, as I said, they would be venially immodest at the grocery store or elsewhere.  They would only be worn during volleyball games and practices.  Wearing them to Mass would exacerbate the sin, although I would not consider this mortally sinful even at Mass.

Why it's wrong for the coach and not the girls illustrates my point exactly.  Coach has no proportionate reason for wearing the outfit (she's not playing), while the girls have the proportionate reason of being able to function properly during a volleyball game and not risk injury.  I've attempted to explain the notion of proportionate reason.  Coach has none, but the girls do.

No, as I said, they would be venially immodest at the grocery store or elsewhere.  They would only be worn during volleyball games and practices.  Wearing them to Mass would exacerbate the sin, although I would not consider this mortally sinful even at Mass.

Why it's wrong for the coach and not the girls illustrates my point exactly.  Coach has no proportionate reason for wearing the outfit (she's not playing), while the girls have the proportionate reason of being able to function properly during a volleyball game and not risk injury.  I've attempted to explain the notion of proportionate reason.  Coach has none, but the girls do.

So you are saying that you would not allow your daughters to wear those outfits to mass and the grocery stores? Is it because of the length or because they are shabby clothes?  

So you are saying that you would not allow your daughters to wear those outfits to mass and the grocery stores? Is it because of the length or because they are shabby clothes?  

On both counts.  They are above the knee (and shabby).  To say that they are venially immodest is not to say that they are OK.  People confuse venial sin with no sin.  It's still a sin and it offends God, and it's compounded by doing the sin at Mass.

You did not address the comment above to anyone, to whom is it addressed?

To whomever it may apply.  I'm not so much put off by WHAT is being said as by HOW it's being said ... by some folks.  There's an undertone of "these dirty whores" in some of the posts on this thread.

Is this immodest?  My opinion is that it is not.

My biggest problem is with the haughty, self-righteous, Pharisaical attitude of standing in judgment over everyone ... whether or not you have all the facts or can present a rational argument.  You refuse to entertain distinctions or degrees of sin or proportionate reasons.  You pretend that moral theology is binary, or at least act like it, that either something is a mortal sin or it's perfect, that there's nothing in between.  You paint moral theology as black-and-white, whereas in actuality it admits of much gray, with prudential considerations being weighed in.  Most of all, you refuse to give anyone of the benefit of the doubt, but immediately stand on your soapbox to denounce these girls as whores ... simply because you can catch a glimpse of knee from their uniforms.

Trust me, God is much more offended by arrogant judgmental self-righteous Pharisaism than by a glimpse of female knee.

TQuote from: Ladislaus  

To whomever it may apply.  I'm not so much put off by WHAT is being said as by HOW it's being said ... by some folks.  There's an undertone of "these dirty whores" in some of the posts on this thread.

If it is not addressed to anyone and has no quotes that prove the accusations you are making, then it is just an irrational emotional outburst and a strawman. I have not seen anyone here call those girls whores. I have not seen any "haughty, self-righteous, Pharisaical attitude of standing in judgment over everyone". The outburst is what is totally out of proportion. If it is addressed to someone then it is a detraction, a mortal sin. You and SJ are constantly detracting against each other like little children, one of you needs to grow up and rise above it. 

Is this immodest?  My opinion is that it is not.

By your own analysis, there is no reason for the skirt to be so short, she is not playing any sport that requires a short dress.

By my analysis, there is not much to see in the picture, it is not clear. The skirt could be tight and thin and she is wearing a G-string that is clearly marked. Maybe the stocking only go up a little past the skirt and when she sits you can see the upper thighs, like French maid outfits.

Is this immodest?  My opinion is that it is not.

Well, I wouldn't wear it.  I wouldn't allow my daughters, if I had any, to wear it.  It looks like black leggings with a black mini-skirt.  It's much too form-fitting.  Why not leggings beneath looser and longer (below knee) culottes?