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Author Topic: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX  (Read 21948 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2019, 08:11:07 AM »
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    • Dear Ladislaus,

    You are just arguing for arguments sake, likely because it is SJ on the other side.

    Until you fully imbibe and understand the other and deeper repercussions of the sin of immodestly, you will forever see this as a simple matter of the sin of tempting men, just a an insignificant matter of a few inches of cloth. 
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline HOOLIGAN4HIRE

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #61 on: November 14, 2019, 08:18:25 AM »
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    • WOO HOO... HFA GIRLS "STATE VOLLEYBALL CHAMPS" (the Creepy-Looking Male Coach looks very excited, too!!!)...

    They're #1 and they're almost ready for LITURGICAL DANCER TRY-OUTS!!!  :applause:

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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #62 on: November 14, 2019, 08:25:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on November 14, 2019, 05:35:29 AM

      To put the neo-trad ladies into context:

        1. They are living in the hottest state in the nation.  I didn't fine their attire or their fat little knees provocative.
            It could have been much, much worse.



      
              
    Your focus is also on the sin of tempting men,  a simplistic mindset which leads one to dismiss this as an insignificant matter of a few inches of cloth.

    By the way, I have lived/live and worked outdoors in much much hotter locations in the tropics (the climate in Arizona is dry and they have seasons. I hiked there in 107 degrees, it was cool compared to the tropics because the air is dry). I have never worn shorts to do hard labor work in the outdoors in my life. Shorts means bug bites of every kind, it means grease and dirt on your skin, burns from hot steel, cuts from thorns/machete/shovels...….. In sports, I played football in the same stifling humid heat, where a 300lb athlete loses 17 lbs in a practice,  all of that and never wore shorts.  
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline HOOLIGAN4HIRE

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #63 on: November 14, 2019, 08:30:30 AM »
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    • And a BIG CONGRATS to the HFA / 91st Psalms Protestant church JOINT "Ecuмenical Soccer Team"...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    HFA boys help secure second place at State!
    Many boys in grades 8-12 are currently playing on the soccer team of 91st Psalm Christian School. The team is coached by HFA parent Dr. Shannon Obernuefemann and Gabriel DeMark.
    On Saturday, November 2nd the HFA boys helped secure a second-place finish against Pan America High School in the CAA Division 2 State Championships.
    The HFA boys gave their all and are proud of their soccer season!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

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    Offline HOOLIGAN4HIRE

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #64 on: November 14, 2019, 08:32:49 AM »
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    • HFA IS JUST A BUNCH OF TRAD-PHONIES!!!
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    Offline HOOLIGAN4HIRE

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #65 on: November 14, 2019, 08:37:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 14, 2019, 08:25:25 AM
    Your focus is also on the sin of tempting men,  a simplistic mindset which leads one to dismiss this as an insignificant matter of a few inches of cloth.

    By the way, I have lived/live and worked outdoors in much much hotter locations in the tropics (the climate in Arizona is dry and they have seasons. I hiked there in 107 degrees, it was cool compared to the tropics because the air is dry). I have never worn shorts to do hard labor work in the outdoors in my life. Shorts means bug bites of every kind, it means grease and dirt on your skin, burns from hot steel, cuts from thorns/machete/shovels...….. In sports, I played football in the same stifling humid heat, where a 300lb athlete loses 17 lbs in a practice,  all of that and never wore shorts.  
    ...and they play in air-conditioned gyms, so there's just no excuse for it.  "Highway to Modernism"!
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #66 on: November 14, 2019, 09:27:48 AM »
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    • Quote
    As for the girls, I think that the clothes might be as modest as you can get while playing the sport. 
    "As modest as you can get"?  Does such a standard exist in the public forum?  I don't see how.
    .
    Quote
    As far as girls' sports, if they are in a closed venue with a known girls sport taking place,
    Such a "closed venue" does not exist in our current society.  You're inserting an idealism which is imaginary.
    .
    Quote
    then if some guy shows up there and finds himself "tempted," then he should have known better than to go there. 
    If he were tempted for reasons other than the clothing, I agree.  But since we're talking about clothing, your point makes no sense.
    .
    Quote
    But it looks like they are outside of the sports venue, and the picture should not have been taken that way.  They could have had them stand up and capture only the view above the bottoms of their uniforms. 
    They were either dressed immodestly or they were not.  These girls either scandalized those in attendance or not.  The issue of the picture is a SEPARATE issue, where they take an isolated immodesty and SPREAD IT to those not in attendance.  Assuming one argues that the clothing was immodest at the game, then a picture is an ADDITIONAL sin, which exposes the scandal to far more people.
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    Quote
    So, for instance, if there's a private property, a camp, for instance, where it's just girls in attendance, they could go swimming.  So what might be OK in that context, may not be outside of it.  Same thing applies to some girls' sports. 
    We don't live in this ideal world where women are separated from men in sporting events.  Your example of swimming at a girls camp is acceptable.  Sporting events aren't private in the same degree.  Not. at. all. 

    Quote
    In a Catholic society, girls' sporting events should likely be offlimits to men and boys ... except as necessary. 
    That society doesn't exist.  We're talking about current reality.

    Quote
    But, as it is, if they restrict their immodesty to within the venue, nobody is forcing any man to attend.  If I walk into a womens' locker room and see nude women, is that their fault and are they being "immodest"?  I should not have gone in there ... obviously.  Likewise, if there's a girls' swim meet, I should not go in there, nor a girls' volleyball game.
    No such thing as a girls-only swim meet.  They don't exist nowadays.

    Quote
    So, the rules, IMO, should be:
    1) dress as modestly as possible given the sport if someone is playing (coach and other staff do not count)
    2) keep the objectively-immodest dress within the venue (don't venture outside of the venue or take pictures that aren't properly cropped)
    You are either dressed modestly or not.  "Modestly as possible" is anti-Catholic thinking, and only applies to emergency situations.
    .
    .
    Pope Pius XI on sports, to women:
    The means employed to give health to the body, “the noble instrument of the soul,” he stated, should take into account suitability of time and place. They should not excite vanity or promote immodesty. And they must not lessen a young woman’s “reserve and self-possession which are both the ornament and guarantee of virtue”
    – Pope Pius XI – (Letter A Lei, Vicario Nostro, May 2, 1928).
    .
    .
    Pope Pius XII speaking to girls on sports:
    “If a form of dress becomes a grave and proximate danger for the soul, it is certainly not hygienic for the spirit, and you must reject it”  . . . .  “Will you, then, for the love of Christ, in the esteem for virtue, not find at the bottom of your hearts the courage and strength to sacrifice a little well-being – a physical advantage, if you will – to conserve safe and pure the life of your souls?”
    -  Allocution to the girls of Catholic Action, October 6, 1940
    .
    Papal Decree Concerning Modesty,
    POPE PIUS XI, 12 January 1930
    http://www.olvrc.com/reference/docuмents/Modesty.Pius.XI.pdf

    3. Let those same parents prohibit their children from public athletic events and gymnastics competitions, or at least, if their daughters must be involved in them, that they take care to exhibit clothing which is fully in keeping with modesty and that their parents never permit them to wear immodest clothing.

    .

    .

    "Fully keeping with modesty" does not mean "modestly as possible".
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #67 on: November 14, 2019, 09:32:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: HOOLIGAN4HIRE on November 14, 2019, 08:18:25 AM
     

    They could easily cover themselves underneath the skirts with leggings, like football pants that already have the knee pads. BY the way, volleyball players wear padding around other areas. 
     
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #68 on: November 14, 2019, 09:33:33 AM »
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    • Quote
    Your focus is also on the sin of tempting men,  a simplistic mindset which leads one to dismiss this as an insignificant matter of a few inches of cloth

    Great point.  Women used to be taught, and made to comply, with modesty even when they were only in the presence of other women.  Modesty is a STANDARD of morality that must be met, as a matter of salvation, whether alone or with those of the same sex and certainly with those of the opposite sex. 
    .
    Pay attention to #8 below.  It's talking about sin for immodesty only the presence of other women...
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    .
    PAPAL DECREE CONCERNING MODESTY
    HIS HOLINESS POPE PIUS XI
    12 January 1930
    .
    7. May pious associations of women be established and fostered, organizations which, by their counsel, example and deed, set before themselves the goal of checking the abuse of dress, which is not consistent with the dictates of Christian modesty, as well as the goal of promoting purity of morals and modesty of dress.
    .
    8. Into the pious associations of women, let not those women be admitted who put on immodest clothing; and once admitted, if afterwards they commit a sin in this regard, and come not to their senses when admonished, may be expelled as well.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #69 on: November 14, 2019, 09:44:29 AM »
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    • THE MARYLIKE STANDARDS FOR MODESTY IN DRESS
    .
    “A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper.” (The Cardinal Vicar of Pope Pius XI).
    .
    1. Marylike is modest without compromise, “like Mary,” Christ’s mother.
    2. Marylike dresses have sleeves extending at least to the elbows; and skirts reaching below the knees.
    [N.B. Because of impossible market conditions quarter-length sleeves are temporarily tolerated with Ecclesiastical Approval, until Christian womanhood again turns to
    Mary as the model of modesty in dress.]
    .
    3. Marylike dress requires full coverage for the bodice, chest, shoulders and back; except for a cut-out about the neck not exceeding two inches below the
    neckline in front and in back and a corresponding two inches on the shoulders.
    4. Marylike dresses do not admit as modest coverage transparent fabrics — laces, nets, organdy, nylons, etc. — unless sufficient backing is added.  However, their moderate use as trimmings is acceptable.
    5. Marylike dresses do not admit the use improper of flesh-colored fabrics.
    6. Marylike dresses conceal rather than reveal the figure of the wearer; they do not unduly emphasize the parts of the body.
    7. Marylike dresses provide full coverage — even after the jacket, the cape or the stole are removed.
    8. Slacks or ‘jeans’ are not to be worn to church.
    .
    Marylike fashions are designed to conceal as much of the body as possible rather than reveal it. This would automatically eliminate such fashions as tight fitting slacks or ‘jeans’, sweaters, shorts; shorts which do not reach down at least to the knees; sheer blouses and sleeveless dresses, etc. These Marylike standards are a guide to instill a sense of modesty. Women and girls who follow these standards and who look to Mary as their ideal and model will have no problem of modesty in dress. She who follows these standards will not be the occasion of sin nor a source of embarrassment or shame to others.
    .
    .
    -- Maybe this sounds outdated, but modesty and morality are never outdated.  We live in a "modern world".  If you want to go to hell with the moderns, it's your choice.  Catholics are supposed to "be not of the world".  The first step to rejecting the world, and following Christ (especially for women) is to dress differently.  That's very hard for women, but no one ever said that getting to heaven was easy.


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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #70 on: November 14, 2019, 10:05:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 13, 2019, 09:00:37 PM
    Girls have no business playing competitive sports (a masculine recreation whose only purpose is to encourage competitiveness and provide a cathartic outlet for aggression in a controlled environment).
    What do you think of my addition SJ? I added it because there are sports activities for girls that are not competitive, or team oriented, nor a cathartic outlet for aggression in a controlled environment.

    For others, notice that in all women's sports, the women are scantily dressed. Even in women's pro football where you would think they would be covered for protection, they play bare butt. Look at track, bare butt. Tennis...… There is a reason for that, it is to attract men to the "sport". Why would anyone go to watch woman's highschool/college/pro sports except they be parents or relatives? It is like going to watch a pro football game between men with their ankles tide together, or other handicap. That is the reason for the bare butt and exposed breasts outfits. It is of course of the devil. Also, because of the aggression in competitive sports it attracts an abnormally high percentage of lesbians to play or watch/stalk. I have a relative who's daughgter played on the highschool volleyball team and I was at his house once when the girls were all there. I smelled something wrong, and over time found that many of them were indeed lesbians, maybe the majority. 
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #71 on: November 14, 2019, 10:10:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 14, 2019, 08:11:07 AM
    You are just arguing for arguments sake, likely because it is SJ on the other side.

    That's ridiculous.  I made my comments before Sean made his reply.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #72 on: November 14, 2019, 10:13:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 14, 2019, 06:11:40 AM
    It’s implicit in the teaching on modest attire, and in the Catholic conception of femininity.

    That is your interpretation of Catholic teaching on those subjects.  Presumably at some point you would find something from the Church about this ... if it were wrong, since many Catholic girls have participated in sports for a very long time now, long before Vatican II.

    I'll actually come back later and cite some things from Pius XI.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #73 on: November 14, 2019, 10:15:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 14, 2019, 09:33:33 AM
    Women used to be taught, and made to comply, with modesty even when they were only in the presence of other women.

    To a point, but not to the same point as when with mixed company or in public.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #74 on: November 14, 2019, 10:17:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 14, 2019, 10:13:51 AM
    Quote from: Ladislaus on Thu Nov 14 2019 10:13:51 GMT-0600 (CST)
    That is your interpretation of Catholic teaching on those subjects.  Presumably at some point you would find something from the Church about this ... if it were wrong, since many Catholic girls have participated in sports for a very long time now, long before Vatican II.

    I'll actually come back later and cite some things from Pius XI.

    LT posted the following earlier:

    Pope Pius XI on sports, to women:
    The means employed to give health to the body, “the noble instrument of the soul,” he stated, should take into account suitability of time and place. They should not excite vanity or promote immodesty. And they must not lessen a young woman’s “reserve and self-possession which are both the ornament and guarantee of virtue”
    – Pope Pius XI – (Letter A Lei, Vicario Nostro, May 2, 1928).

    Pope Pius XII speaking to girls on sports:
    “If a form of dress becomes a grave and proximate danger for the soul, it is certainly not hygienic for the spirit, and you must reject it”  . . . .  “Will you, then, for the love of Christ, in the esteem for virtue, not find at the bottom of your hearts the courage and strength to sacrifice a little well-being – a physical advantage, if you will – to conserve safe and pure the life of your souls?”
    -  Allocution to the girls of Catholic Action, October 6, 1940

    Papal Decree Concerning Modesty,
    POPE PIUS XI, 12 January 1930
    http://www.olvrc.com/reference/docuмents/Modesty.Pius.XI.pdf

    3. Let those same parents prohibit their children from public athletic events and gymnastics competitions, or at least, if their daughters must be involved in them, that they take care to exhibit clothing which is fully in keeping with modesty and that their parents never permit them to wear immodest clothing.
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