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Author Topic: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX  (Read 21943 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2019, 08:20:27 PM »
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  • I think that their coach is the bigger issue.  She is not playing and need not be dressed that way.

    As for the girls, I think that the clothes might be as modest as you can get while playing the sport.  As far as girls' sports, if they are in a closed venue with a known girls sport taking place, then if some guy shows up there and finds himself "tempted," then he should have known better than to go there.  But it looks like they are outside of the sports venue, and the picture should not have been taken that way.  They could have had them stand up and capture only the view above the bottoms of their uniforms.  So, for instance, if there's a private property, a camp, for instance, where it's just girls in attendance, they could go swimming.  So what might be OK in that context, may not be outside of it.  Same thing applies to some girls' sports.  In a Catholic society, girls' sporting events should likely be offlimits to men and boys ... except as necessary.  But, as it is, if they restrict their immodesty to within the venue, nobody is forcing any man to attend.  If I walk into a womens' locker room and see nude women, is that their fault and are they being "immodest"?  I should not have gone in there ... obviously.  Likewise, if there's a girls' swim meet, I should not go in there, nor a girls' volleyball game.

    So, the rules, IMO, should be:
    1) dress as modestly as possible given the sport if someone is playing (coach and other staff do not count)
    2) keep the objectively-immodest dress within the venue (don't venture outside of the venue or take pictures that aren't properly cropped)



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #46 on: November 13, 2019, 09:00:37 PM »
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  • I think that their coach is the bigger issue.  She is not playing and need not be dressed that way.

    As for the girls, I think that the clothes might be as modest as you can get while playing the sport.  As far as girls' sports, if they are in a closed venue with a known girls sport taking place, then if some guy shows up there and finds himself "tempted," then he should have known better than to go there.  But it looks like they are outside of the sports venue, and the picture should not have been taken that way.  They could have had them stand up and capture only the view above the bottoms of their uniforms.  So, for instance, if there's a private property, a camp, for instance, where it's just girls in attendance, they could go swimming.  So what might be OK in that context, may not be outside of it.  Same thing applies to some girls' sports.  In a Catholic society, girls' sporting events should likely be offlimits to men and boys ... except as necessary.  But, as it is, if they restrict their immodesty to within the venue, nobody is forcing any man to attend.  If I walk into a womens' locker room and see nude women, is that their fault and are they being "immodest"?  I should not have gone in there ... obviously.  Likewise, if there's a girls' swim meet, I should not go in there, nor a girls' volleyball game.

    So, the rules, IMO, should be:
    1) dress as modestly as possible given the sport if someone is playing (coach and other staff do not count)
    2) keep the objectively-immodest dress within the venue (don't venture outside of the venue or take pictures that aren't properly cropped)

    Girls have no business playing sports (a masculine recreation whose only purpose is to encourage competitiveness and provide a cathartic outlet for aggression in a controlled environment).

    Saying girls can play sports privately still undermines their feminine psyche, and encourages masculine traits incompatible with submissiveness, nurturing, and other essential qualities of espousal and motherhood.

    Essentially what you are saying is that I could sit around in thong underwear and practice knitting and embroidery, so long as only other “men” are around, and any pics of me in a inappropriate attire are carefully cropped.

    This vigorous defense by some of women in sports reveals an undeniable taint of feminism, and is surprising to see coming from those who consider themselves traditional.

    Soon we will hear from Fr. Urrutigoity, warning us not to be puritanical.

    Yes, for any who have not yet been slow-boiled in modernism, women in sports is a scandal (as are the demeaning outfits, which seem to be nothing more than a contrived facade of modesty, but which are in reality an ulterior means by which to be modern, and show some leg).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #47 on: November 14, 2019, 03:14:39 AM »
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  • I think you make a good point, Sean.

    As a child I was never happy when I had sport, and I would ask the teacher could I polish the desks instead. She would allow me!

    I thought it was because I was not very physically adept, but maybe it was that Unconsciously I felt what you are describing. I could never compete in sports.

    Thank you. The only physical recreation (not competitive sport) that I enjoyed was swimming, but never competitively.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #48 on: November 14, 2019, 03:38:33 AM »
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  • As far as girls' sports, if they are in a closed venue with a known girls sport taking place, then if some guy shows up there and finds himself "tempted," then he should have known better than to go there. ….In a Catholic society, girls' sporting events should likely be offlimits to men and boys ... except as necessary.  But, as it is, if they restrict their immodesty to within the venue, nobody is forcing any man to attend.
    When discussing immodest dress, your focus appears always to be on the sin of tempting men. Your comment above further corroborates it. What you are describing is a type of situational "modesty". The entire comment from SJ is spot on, but the part that directly applies to your erroneous mindset is this:


    Quote
    Essentially what you are saying is that a group of girls could sit around in thong underwear and practice knitting and embroidery, so long as other “men” are not around, and any pics of them in the inappropriate attire are carefully cropped.

    Until you fully imbibe and understand the other and deeper repercussions of the sin of immodestly, you will forever see this as a simple matter of the sin of tempting men. I think the error comes from your coming from a good clean background (nothing to feel unmanly about), and you even thought of being a priests, going to the seminary for x years . I on the other hand was raised in the streets, living in sin, never having learned anything about the faith (and that is nothing to be proud of). Maybe that is why SSPX priests do not speak of the immodest dress, they do not see it either, to their mindset it is just a silly matter of a few inches of cloth.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #49 on: November 14, 2019, 05:35:29 AM »
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  • Girls have no business playing sports (a masculine recreation whose only purpose is to encourage competitiveness and provide a cathartic outlet for aggression in a controlled environment).

    Saying girls can play sports privately still undermines their feminine psyche, and encourages masculine traits incompatible with submissiveness, nurturing, and other essential qualities of espousal and motherhood.

    Essentially what you are saying is that I could sit around in thong underwear and practice knitting and embroidery, so long as only other “men” are around, and any pics of me in a inappropriate attire are carefully cropped.

    This vigorous defense by some of women in sports reveals an undeniable taint of feminism, and is surprising to see coming from those who consider themselves traditional.

    Soon we will hear from Fr. Urrutigoity, warning us not to be puritanical.

    Yes, for any who have not yet been slow-boiled in modernism, women in sports is a scandal (as are the demeaning outfits, which seem to be nothing more than a contrived facade of modesty, but which are in reality an ulterior means by which to be modern, and show some leg).

       There are many ideals, we Trads should strive to achieve.  Do you agree?

       For example, Catholic gentlemen shouldn't describe their debate adversaries as pieces of excrement, stupid or incapable.


       To put the neo-trad ladies into context:

         1. They are living in the hottest state in the nation.  I didn't fine their attire or their fat little knees provocative.
             It could have been much, much worse.

         2. While many sports are out-of-bounds, Catholic girls should be able to do something in the field of sports.

         3. Our Lady of Sorrows has many more problems than athletic culottes.
             


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #50 on: November 14, 2019, 05:54:49 AM »
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  • Let's try to keep the two issues separate:

    1) whether girls should be competing (is competitive chess off limits also?)
        what if they play in a less competitive environment, intramural, etc.?
        sports can have many benefits physically, emotionally, psychologically

    2) modesty
        while modesty should be observed even when not in the presence of the opposite sex, the latter is in fact a huge determining factor regarding immodesty
        some things that women should not do in the presence of men are not an issue when done among others of their own gender

    I'll get into more detail later ... have to head to work now.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #51 on: November 14, 2019, 05:59:03 AM »
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  • HINT:  can anyone point to anything from the Church which states that spots are "off limits" to girls?

    When discussions took place regarding female athletic attire, this entirely presupposes the licitness of their playing sports

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #52 on: November 14, 2019, 06:01:52 AM »
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  • Most sports leagues require that children have practice and/or games on Sunday morning, ...

    This is rarely the case.  Most leagues play on Saturdays and sometimes Sunday afternoons, and practices are invariably during the week.  There's an occasional tournament, if one gets into a very competitive club type of league, where some games might be scheduled on Sunday mornings, once or twice a year, but that is the exception rather than the rule.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #53 on: November 14, 2019, 06:03:46 AM »
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  •   There are many ideals, we Trads should strive to achieve.  Do you agree?

      For example, Catholic gentlemen shouldn't describe their debate adversaries as pieces of excrement, stupid or incapable.


      To put the neo-trad ladies into context:

        1. They are living in the hottest state in the nation.  I didn't fine their attire or their fat little knees provocative.
            It could have been much, much worse.

        2. While many sports are out-of-bounds, Catholic girls should be able to do something in the field of sports.

        3. Our Lady of Sorrows has many more problems than athletic culottes.
              

    I appreciate your honest rejection of both the norms for Catholic modesty, and Catholic femininity.

    Yes, I can well imagine the BVM wearing these outfits and playing volleyball.

    NOT!!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #54 on: November 14, 2019, 06:09:36 AM »
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  • I appreciate your honest rejection of both the norms for Catholic modesty, and Catholic femininity.

    Yes, I can well imagine the BVM wearing these outfits and playing volleyball.

    NOT!!

    You are making up your own norms, Sean.  Again, please point to a Church teaching which precludes women/girls entirely from athletic endeavours.

    As far as modesty, you know, right?, that in the early Church women were baptized by immersion and either nude or close to it.  That was the original role of the so-called (non-ordained) "deaconesses".  They would assist the women being baptized while the bishop would stand behind a screen so as not to see them while he pronounced the form of Baptism.  So, again, given the stipulation I laid out that the girls should not dressed that way in mixed company or out in public, the perfect modesty required when in the presence of the opposite sex does not always apply.

    If the girls were to, say, play volleyball at an all-girls' school in the gym, in an intramural (not-particularly-competitive) manner, I don't see anything wrong with that.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #55 on: November 14, 2019, 06:11:40 AM »
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  • HINT:  can anyone point to anything from the Church which states that spots are "off limits" to girls?

    When discussions took place regarding female athletic attire, this entirely presupposes the licitness of their playing sports
    It’s implicit in the teaching on modest attire, and in the Catholic conception of femininity.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #56 on: November 14, 2019, 06:13:51 AM »
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  • Yes, I can well imagine the BVM wearing these outfits and playing volleyball.

    There are many things that Our Lady would not do that are, nevertheless, licit and not sinful ... e.g., getting married and having marital relations.  Moral theologians always distinguish between the evangelical counsels, which are things that are not strictly required for all, but nevertheless represent the striving for a higher state of perfection.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04435a.htm

    Quote
    This distinction between the precepts of the Gospel, which are binding on all, and the counsels, which are the subject of the vocation of the comparatively few, has ever been maintained by the Catholic Church. It has been denied by heretics in all ages, and especially by many Protestants in the sixteenth and following centuries, on the ground that, inasmuch as all Christians are at all times bound, if they would keep God's Commandments, to do their utmost, and even so will fall short of perfect obedience, no distinction between precepts and counsels can rightly be made.
    ...
    The difference between a precept and a counsel lies in this, that the precept is a matter of necessity while the counsel is left to the free choice of the person to whom it is proposed.

    Our Lady, of course, freely chose to adopt and to follow, EVERY such counsel for perfection, but that does not mean all are bound, nor are all capable of keeping them, so that, for instance, as St. Paul states, some need to marry rather than to "burn".

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #57 on: November 14, 2019, 06:19:25 AM »
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  • You are making up your own norms, Sean.  Again, please point to a Church teaching which precludes women/girls entirely from athletic endeavours.

    As far as modesty, you know, right?, that in the early Church women were baptized by immersion and either nude or close to it.  That was the original role of the so-called (non-ordained) "deaconesses".  They would assist the women being baptized while the bishop would stand behind a screen so as not to see them while he pronounced the form of Baptism.  So, again, given the stipulation I laid out that the girls should not dressed that way in mixed company or out in public, the perfect modesty required when in the presence of the opposite sex does not always apply.

    If the girls were to, say, play volleyball at an all-girls' school in the gym, in an intramural (not-particularly-competitive) manner, I don't see anything wrong with that.

    Yes, yes, I’m making stuff up.  Everyone knows the Church has no problem with high cut revealing attire on women, manly attire on women, makeup, or whatever else feminist liberal Americans want to push through on the pretext it hasn’t been infallibly condemned.

    Why, if the BVM were alive today, she would wear pants, play field hockey, and slap on some makeup before heading out for girls night to impress the other girls.

    BS!

    For someone so severe in other areas, your liberal-laxist-feminist views in this area are rather surprising.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #58 on: November 14, 2019, 06:22:38 AM »
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  • There are many things that Our Lady would not do that are, nevertheless, licit and not sinful ... e.g., getting married and having marital relations.  Moral theologians always distinguish between the evangelical counsels, which are things that are not strictly required for all, but nevertheless represent the striving for a higher state of perfection.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04435a.htm

    Our Lady, of course, freely chose to adopt and to follow, EVERY such counsel for perfection, but that does not mean all are bound, nor are all capable of keeping them, so that, for instance, as St. Paul states, some need to marry rather than to "burn".

    Thank you for honest liberal and uncatholic viewpoint that the imitation of the BVM is not The reference point for Catholic norms of modesty and femininity.

    This is the cause of all your subsequent laziest-feminist errors.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline HOOLIGAN4HIRE

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    Re: Holy Family Academy - ANOTHER SCANDAL IN PHOENIX
    « Reply #59 on: November 14, 2019, 07:57:44 AM »
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  • The HFA girls volleyball team DOES NOT play their games in a "closed gym setting"... they play all over the Valley, weeknights & Saturdays, and in front of all types of crowds (Catholic, Protestant, secular).  On November 2nd the volleyball Finals were at the Arizona State University basketball arena.  As for the defense that we live in "the hottest State in the country", the gyms are air conditioned and the high temps this time of year are in the low 80 degree range.