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Author Topic: Hewkonian…. If you are listening  (Read 4555 times)

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Offline Infirmus

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Hewkonian…. If you are listening
« on: August 30, 2024, 10:38:13 AM »
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    • Hewkonian please ease the grip you have on your axe. You say Archbishop Lefebvre said NO mass does not confer or transmit grace, and you quoted “Open Letter To Confused Catholics” chapter 3. That chapter deals with the abuses in the NO mass not with the rite of the NO mass. As per below The Archbishop accepted the validity, not the licitness. If you weren’t banned you could offer me something more substantial. As Archbishop Lefebvre said at the Consecrations of the 4 bishops the intentions are doubtful. We can agree for sure that certain abuses will invalidate. Maybe there is a Hewkonite that can provide the claim that there is no grace from the New rite as it written. Just to clarify I am not saying is or isn’t graces.

     ◄ 1988 ►d)    Moreover, we declare that we recognize the validity of the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments celebrated with the intention of doing what the Church does, and according to the rites indicated in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Rituals of the Sacraments promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #1 on: August 30, 2024, 10:58:17 AM »
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    • Since Hewkonian is banned I'll respond instead of him. I think I have a good grip on how these discussions go.

    Hewkonian's response:


    Quote
    No, I'm the TRUE follower of Lefebvre! The following quote was made two months and 15 days after yours so it's worth more ABP points:

    [Insert Lefebvre quote]


    Jokes aside, you can't pick a bishop and make him your rule of faith.
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    Offline RobertS

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #2 on: August 30, 2024, 10:58:39 AM »
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    • Hewkonian's rigorist position on the New Mass is mistaken.

    +ABL also told Michael Davies in 1980: "
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    Those who feel themselves obliged in conscience to assist at the New Mass on Sunday can fulfil their Sunday obligation. But one cannot accuse a person of a grave fault because he prefers not to assist at Mass on Sunday rather than assist at the New Mass."
    https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_two/Chapter_40.htm

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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #3 on: August 30, 2024, 12:22:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: RobertS on August 30, 2024, 10:58:39 AM
    Hewkonian's rigorist position on the New Mass is mistaken.

    +ABL also told Michael Davies in 1980: "https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_two/Chapter_40.htm
    Literally who cares about his opinion? You people can't make any actual arguments besides appeals to "authorities" you chose for yourselves.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #4 on: August 30, 2024, 12:47:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on August 30, 2024, 12:22:08 PM
    Literally who cares about his opinion? You people can't make any actual arguments besides appeals to "authorities" you chose for yourselves.

    Yes, this epitomizes with my frustration with the level of "discourse" / debate here on CI, where people just paste in their authorities (filtered out via their own confirmation bias) that support whatever position they've already decided they want to take, and will not or cannot engage regarding the underlying principles, whether and to what extent they apply, etc.  It's the same thing going on with the Universal Acceptance thread.

    1) Paste in some stuff that backs (or seems to back) your opinion.
    2) Someone makes a well-thought-out response to these based on the principles involved.
    3) Re-paste the stuff you pasted earlier without any regard for the response.

    Anyone can play the old cut and paste game.  I'm not interested in that.  For everything they paste in, I can paste something in, and it would become a battle of cut-and-paste.  Stupid and a waste of time.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #5 on: August 30, 2024, 12:49:00 PM »
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    • Michael Davies was a well-meaning individual but he got a ton of stuff wrong, including that Vatican II could be salvaged except for a single word in the Dignitatis Humanae docuмent, publice.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #6 on: August 30, 2024, 01:13:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on August 30, 2024, 12:22:08 PM
    Literally who cares about his opinion? You people can't make any actual arguments besides appeals to "authorities" you chose for yourselves.

    Well, you too are a layman, isn't that correct? But you want all of us to follow your opinion, which you believe to be authoritative.

    At least Michael Davies was around back in the day. He saw firsthand what was happening, and he wrote about it extensively. Were you there?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #7 on: August 30, 2024, 01:18:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Infirmus on August 30, 2024, 10:38:13 AM
    Hewkonian please ease the grip you have on your axe. You say Archbishop Lefebvre said NO mass does not confer or transmit grace, and you quoted “Open Letter To Confused Catholics” chapter 3. That chapter deals with the abuses in the NO mass not with the rite of the NO mass. As per below The Archbishop accepted the validity, not the licitness. If you weren’t banned you could offer me something more substantial. As Archbishop Lefebvre said at the Consecrations of the 4 bishops the intentions are doubtful. We can agree for sure that certain abuses will invalidate. Maybe there is a Hewkonite that can provide the claim that there is no grace from the New rite as it written. Just to clarify I am not saying is or isn’t graces.

    ◄ 1988 ►d)    Moreover, we declare that we recognize the validity of the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments celebrated with the intention of doing what the Church does, and according to the rites indicated in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Rituals of the Sacraments promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.

    Yes, +ABL believed that the new mass was valid but illicit. With validity, there are a lot of issues that go along with that, and it can get complicated. For example, if the new mass is valid, it may follow that there can be graces from the new mass. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #8 on: August 30, 2024, 04:14:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 30, 2024, 12:49:00 PM
    Michael Davies was a well-meaning individual but he got a ton of stuff wrong, including that Vatican II could be salvaged except for a single word in the Dignitatis Humanae docuмent, publice.
    .

    :facepalm:
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #9 on: August 30, 2024, 04:33:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 30, 2024, 12:49:00 PM
    Michael Davies was a well-meaning individual but he got a ton of stuff wrong, including that Vatican II could be salvaged except for a single word in the Dignitatis Humanae docuмent, publice.
    If he was well-meaning he would have read John Daly's book refuting him. He refused. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #10 on: August 30, 2024, 06:01:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on August 30, 2024, 04:33:20 PM
    If he was well-meaning he would have read John Daly's book refuting him. He refused.

    Was Daly a sedevacantist when he wrote that book? Or was that later? Wasn't a forum member here at one time? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #11 on: August 30, 2024, 06:07:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 30, 2024, 06:01:51 PM
    Was Daly a sedevacantist when he wrote that book? Or was that later? Wasn't a forum member here at one time?

    Yes, John Daly was a sedevacantist when he wrote that book.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #12 on: August 30, 2024, 06:15:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on August 30, 2024, 06:07:14 PM
    Yes, John Daly was a sedevacantist when he wrote that book.

    Okay, thanks.


    I found an old forum thread that has info about Daly's criticisms of Davies. One article says, regarding the book on Davies that Daly wrote:

    "The work [on] Michael Davies - An evaluation written in a tone that the author [Daly] now regrets. He has, in fact, withdrawn the book from publication."


    NOW publishes John Dalys 1989 critique of Michael Davies - Crisis in the Church - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)


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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #13 on: August 31, 2024, 02:56:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 30, 2024, 06:15:39 PM
    Okay, thanks.


    I found an old forum thread that has info about Daly's criticisms of Davies. One article says, regarding the book on Davies that Daly wrote:

    "The work [on] Michael Davies - An evaluation written in a tone that the author [Daly] now regrets. He has, in fact, withdrawn the book from publication."


    NOW publishes John Dalys 1989 critique of Michael Davies - Crisis in the Church - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

    I believe he regrets it because the book was somewhat hash in tone and because his position changed from a practical “home alone” position (Briton’s Catholic Library position) to a more moderate position.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Infirmus

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    Re: Hewkonian…. If you are listening
    « Reply #14 on: September 03, 2024, 06:41:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on August 30, 2024, 10:58:17 AM
    Jokes aside, you can't pick a bishop and make him your rule of faith
    What is your rule of Faith concerning these times?
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