Author Topic: Here We Go Again with Mass Posture Changes (Read 1698 times)

bowler · « **on:** November 24, 2012, 10:51:53 AM »

A friend reported to me that this week the priest just ordered the people to stand from now on during the Preface, at Low mass.

Here we go again with changes, it's 1965 all over again. The custom for Low Mass postures in the USA, did not change for as far back as my missls go (=-100 years ), and likely forever in the USA, till like the 1965 missal.

Next thing you know, at Low mass they'll also have us standing at the Our Father , and answering like the altar servers.

I think we're being setup for the B-16 New 1962 missal coming out soon.

nipr · « **Reply #1 on:** November 24, 2012, 01:15:20 PM »

At my SSPX chapel IF the Angelus is said in the evening when they have Mass, it is usually said kneeling with no special recognition (bowing of the body or head forward) at the words "and He became man." I was taught that the Angelus should always be said standing and everyone should genuflect at these words. It is not just one priest who is doing it.

Also, during the Stations of the Cross last spring we did not genuflect at each Station as I was also taught. I noticed some people started to but when others didn't and Father didn't, no one did.

I perceive a SERIOUS lack of obvious devotion at my chapel similar to the atmosphere at Novus Ordo church. Prayers are said as fast as possible by the priests and some in the congretation don't like this, the doors of the chapel are locked immediately after evening services even though I was told the chapel would be open until much later on in the evening, the chapel is locked after morning services on weekends when people are off work and might want to come spend time making a Holy Hour or such. It seems to be just like the Novus Ordo -- the church is open only for Mass.

If no Mass, why come? I was told this by a NO church secretary once--forbidden to go into the church to pray when I had an urgent problem and wanted to spend time there to think and pray about it. Because no Mass was scheduled, I was not permitted to go into the church. Now that I am at a Society chapel, the door is also being closed to me and others as well. Only a select few have a key, being those who do work inside the church just like at the Novus Ordo. Father knows I don't have a key and he has not given me one.

The church is open during the day when school is in session but for people who work this does them little good. During the summer the church is not open to the general public during the day. Concurrent with this, never once have I heard it preached that people should come and make Holy Hours, etc. at the church. The church seems to be just for Mass, just like at the Novus Ordo. Private devotion to the Blessed Sacrament is never fostered.

We have a security system and cameras to protect the church. Often the priests aren't home to unlock the door. It is not right to keep people from visiting the Blessed Sacrament and making private devotions by locked doors, especially on weekends when they have more time to do so. I've tried going to the priory to ask to be let in but no one is home. Just think of all the indulgences people are missing out on!!! And just think of how many people don't even know about these devotions because the priests never speak of them.

Catholic life is more than just the Mass and the Rosary.

Miseremini · « **Reply #2 on:** November 24, 2012, 01:19:20 PM »

Yes here we go again! But aren't we helping them by accepting THEIR terminology? We should never refer to this new missal as 1962; we should refer to it as the 2012 missal. We accepted the label Traditionalist which acknowledged there was another legitimate acceptable form of catholicism under Rome. WE are Roman Catholics.

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** November 24, 2012, 01:19:53 PM »

It just sounds like the Dialogue Mass to me, which is a pre-V2 development.

It is much more common in Europe; I was told by older seminarians that it's the "default" or "assumed" type of Mass over there.

Here's a nice 4th-hand report for you (or at least the gist of it):

When the seminarians went on their Europe trip, they told the rest of us about it the next year. One of the anecdotes was how they were in this large church (with side altars) and Mass was already proceeding on the main altar. When they asked about saying Mass on a side altar, the response was, "What? wouldn't the two congregations get confused, with all the different responses going on at once?" and the Americans explained they'd be having a LOW Mass, where only the servers make responses. Apparently it was assumed they'd be saying a Dialogue Mass.

A Dialogue Mass is a lot like a sung Mass, only the Kyriale is recited by all rather than sung by all. There are other parts that are recited by all as well; usually parts the servers would say.

It was in Latin though, so I don't see the problem with greater participation by the Faithful. It seems to me more the way Mass should be. Mass has several aspects that are often overlooked by Trad Catholics, because of what has happened with Bugnini, the New Mass, and the Conciliar religion.

I'm going to start a new topic about this.

Miseremini · « **Reply #4 on:** November 24, 2012, 01:50:19 PM »

Quote from: nipr

At my SSPX chapel IF the Angelus is said in the evening when they have Mass, it is usually said kneeling with no special recognition (bowing of the body or head forward) at the words "and He became man." I was taught that the Angelus should always be said standing and everyone should genuflect at these words. It is not just one priest who is doing it.

[/b] Look in any old prayer book or missal for the proper way to pray the Angelus. It is prayed kneeling EXCEPT on Saturday evening and on Sunday when it is prayed standing, (then you genuflect at the words "And the Word was made Flesh") What kind of angelus is your chapel praying with the words "and He became man"? Is this some new N.O. version? The Reginal Caeli is always prayed standing when prayed instead of the Angelus from Holy Saturday until Trinity Sunday.

Raphaela · « **Reply #5 on:** November 24, 2012, 02:11:06 PM »

Quote from: bowler

A friend reported to me that this week the priest just ordered the people to stand from now on during the Preface, at Low mass.

Here we go again with changes, it's 1965 all over again. The custom for Low Mass postures in the USA, did not change for as far back as my missls go (=-100 years ), and likely forever in the USA, till like the 1965 missal.

Next thing you know, at Low mass they'll also have us standing at the Our Father, and answering like the altar servers.

To be resisted at all costs. Standing for parts of Low Mass was made compulsory by Fr. Schmidberger this year in SSPX chapels in Germany, as well as the Dialogue Mass. But these are aberrations of the Liturgical Movement, which used them to lock-step people into their liturgy of the future.

The laity are ABSOLUTELY free to do as they wish at Mass, as long as they are not irreverent. So don't let any priests (especially French ones) tell you otherwise!

Ferdinand · « **Reply #6 on:** November 24, 2012, 02:55:02 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

It just sounds like the Dialogue Mass to me, which is a pre-V2 development.

It is much more common in Europe; I was told by older seminarians that it's the "default" or "assumed" type of Mass over there.

Here's a nice 4th-hand report for you (or at least the gist of it):

When the seminarians went on their Europe trip, they told the rest of us about it the next year. One of the anecdotes was how they were in this large church (with side altars) and Mass was already proceeding on the main altar. When they asked about saying Mass on a side altar, the response was, "What? wouldn't the two congregations get confused, with all the different responses going on at once?" and the Americans explained they'd be having a LOW Mass, where only the servers make responses. Apparently it was assumed they'd be saying a Dialogue Mass.

A Dialogue Mass is a lot like a sung Mass, only the Kyriale is recited by all rather than sung by all. There are other parts that are recited by all as well; usually parts the servers would say.

It was in Latin though, so I don't see the problem with greater participation by the Faithful. It seems to me more the way Mass should be. Mass has several aspects that are often overlooked by Trad Catholics, because of what has happened with Bugnini, the New Mass, and the Conciliar religion.

I'm going to start a new topic about this.

nipr · « **Reply #7 on:** November 24, 2012, 03:42:33 PM »

Quote from: Miseremini

Quote from: nipr
At my SSPX chapel IF the Angelus is said in the evening when they have Mass, it is usually said kneeling with no special recognition (bowing of the body or head forward) at the words "and He became man." I was taught that the Angelus should always be said standing and everyone should genuflect at these words. It is not just one priest who is doing it.

[/b] Look in any old prayer book or missal for the proper way to pray the Angelus. It is prayed kneeling EXCEPT on Saturday evening and on Sunday when it is prayed standing, (then you genuflect at the words "And the Word was made Flesh") What kind of angelus is your chapel praying with the words "and He became man"? Is this some new N.O. version? The Reginal Caeli is always prayed standing when prayed instead of the Angelus from Holy Saturday until Trinity Sunday.

Thanks for clearing that up for me! I was wrong about "and He became man" -- we do say "and the Word was made Flesh". I got confused there; don't know what I was thinking of. In private I say the prayer in Latin but I still should have remembered what I say in Latin is not what I wrote here. Sorry for the mistake.

I'm going from memory in stating we said the Angelus standing many years ago. I use a 1957 Raccolta and it doesn't specify what posture (at least that I can find at the moment). After reading your post I checked my 1962 missal and you're right, of course. If that's the correct posture from before Vatican II, I will change immediately. Thank you for informing me.

nipr

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #8 on:** November 24, 2012, 04:01:02 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

It just sounds like the Dialogue Mass to me, which is a pre-V2 development.

It is much more common in Europe; I was told by older seminarians that it's the "default" or "assumed" type of Mass over there.

Here's a nice 4th-hand report for you (or at least the gist of it):

When the seminarians went on their Europe trip, they told the rest of us about it the next year. One of the anecdotes was how they were in this large church (with side altars) and Mass was already proceeding on the main altar. When they asked about saying Mass on a side altar, the response was, "What? wouldn't the two congregations get confused, with all the different responses going on at once?" and the Americans explained they'd be having a LOW Mass, where only the servers make responses. Apparently it was assumed they'd be saying a Dialogue Mass.

A Dialogue Mass is a lot like a sung Mass, only the Kyriale is recited by all rather than sung by all. There are other parts that are recited by all as well; usually parts the servers would say.

It was in Latin though, so I don't see the problem with greater participation by the Faithful. It seems to me more the way Mass should be. Mass has several aspects that are often overlooked by Trad Catholics, because of what has happened with Bugnini, the New Mass, and the Conciliar religion.

I'm going to start a new topic about this.

Matthew-

I guess we will have to disagree on this one.

I have been surprised you have this view, especially after what we were taught in Liturgy class at STAS.

St Piux X said active participation meant following along in your Missal.

Modernist liturgists said active participation = vocal participation.

This was a deliberate corruption.

The dialogue fiasco was the embodiment of this corrupted understanding, and paved the way for the Novus Ordo, by design.

That the dialogue Mass came before V2 means nothing, since all the modernist liturgists had been tampering before V2.

A good book on the subject is Fr Diddier Bonneterre's "The Liturgical Movement."

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #9 on:** November 24, 2012, 04:37:59 PM »

Ps to Matthew:

Hope my tone was charitable.

You know I am very choleric, and mean no offense when I try to make points in a very direct way.

And you know I respect you.

Hope it came across that way.

bowler · « **Reply #10 on:** November 27, 2012, 02:31:58 PM »

Quote from: bowler

A friend reported to me that this week the priest just ordered the people to stand from now on during the Preface, at Low mass.

Here we go again with changes, it's 1965 all over again. The custom for Low Mass postures in the USA, did not change for as far back as my missls go (=-100 years ), and likely forever in the USA, till like the 1965 missal.

Next thing you know, at Low mass they'll also have us standing at the Our Father , and answering like the altar servers.

I think we're being setup for the B-16 New 1962 missal coming out soon.

Quote from: Matthew

It just sounds like the Dialogue Mass to me,

I talked again and he says it is not a dialogue mass, that it is just the regular low mass, and that a seminarian has been stationed there, instituted the standing during the preface at low mass to the children in the school, and that the school teachers that go to daily mass started doing it there too.

Likely the next step is the Our Father standing, and then answering along with the server. Let's see at what point the parishioners complain.

Jerome · « **Reply #11 on:** November 27, 2012, 03:09:06 PM »

Do you think it would make any difference if the parishioners "complain"???

Raphaela · « **Reply #12 on:** November 27, 2012, 06:38:48 PM »

Quote from: bowler

I talked again and he says it is not a dialogue mass, that it is just the regular low mass, and that a seminarian has been stationed there, instituted the standing during the preface at low mass to the children in the school, and that the school teachers that go to daily mass started doing it there too.

Likely the next step is the Our Father standing, and then answering along with the server. Let's see at what point the parishioners complain.

From its beginning until a few years ago, liturgical practices in the SSPX followed what was usual in individual countries before the Council. Continental Europe was heavily influenced by the Liturgical Movement, but England and the US less so, so were much more "conservative". But the Society didn't use to have a policy about such things. Now it seems it does. Why?

It's common practice for people with an ideological goal to indoctrinate the children and not bother with the recalcitrant parents (with the unpleasant result of causing a rift between the two). Parents should watch out for things being taught in SSPX schools that they don't agree with and resist them before it's too late. They have a head start because these things have happened before, in the 1950's and 1960's. The SSPX is shifting in the same way the Church shifted in those years. Is this true of the seminary training as well?