My uncle called me today to tell me the news that according to archbishop Pozzo,  Bishop Fellay has *accepted* the personal prelature deal.

Isn't that essentially the old news from 2 weeks ago?

He even said it was a development from today. (I did tell him that I already knew about the news from 2 weeks ago.)

My uncle admitted that there was nothing about it on the SSPX.org website. That suggests that the negotiations are still in play, and that nothing is finalized. Basically we're still in the same situation that we've been in for the past 4 years. SSPX wanting a deal, SSPX and Rome working feverishly on a (practical accord) deal, but the deal hasn't been finalized or publicized.

Yes, it appears that there is some confusion related to Archbishop Pozzo's statement that Bishop Fellay "accepted" a personal prelature. It seems Bishop Fellay has accepted a personal prelature in principle, but no formal acceptance has been made.

Silly Romans, you weren't supposed to let the cat out of the bag until the Feast of the Assumption twenty...SEVENTEEN, AFTER the Rosary Crusade!

Uhoh, someone didn't read the script.  It 'll be interesting to see how this plays out.  The article clearly says "accepts ".

 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.periodistadigital.com%2Freligion%2Fvaticano%2F2016%2F08%2F13%2Freligion-iglesia-vaticano-monsenor-guido-pozzo-ecclesia-dei-la-fraternidad-de-san-pio-x-ha-aceptado-la-proposicion-de-una-prelatura-personal.shtml

Guido Pozzo: the Fraternity of St. Pius X "has accepted" the proposal of a personal prelature
The offer of this canonical structure "is a great vote of confidence in the SSPX"
Cameron Doody, August 13, 2016 at 22:04
Lefebvrian again break the dialogue with Rome and accused the Pope of "promoting confusion"
Francisco could grant a personal prelature or an Ordinariate to Lefebvrians
Francisco met on Saturday with the leader of the Lefebvrians
 We agree with the Fraternity on the principle that the council can only be accurately understood in the context of the whole of Tradition and the perennial Magisterium
Vatican II />
Vatican II

Vatican II
(Cameron Doody) .- The superior of the schismatic and ultraconservative Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), Bernard Fellay, "has accepted" the offer from the Vatican that this group be reconciled with the Church of Rome under the figure of a prelature staff, though, so that this proposal becomes effective, "there are still details to clarify."

This is what has been revealed this week the Vatican in charge of negotiations with Lefebvrians -the secretary of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, Monsignor Guido Pozzo - who also explained that "the core of the discussion" which is still pending " it is the question of to what extent the texts of Vatican II in continuity with the constant teaching of the Church ".

As explained Archbishop Pozzo German newspaper Die Zeit, the ultra group still has "difficulties" with the declaration Nostra Aetate and Unitatis Redintegratio Dignitatis Humanae declaration -docuмents all Vatican II plus "issues regarding relations Christianity with modernity. "

With his statements, the prelate did not reveal anything new that was not already know. What does cause some surprise, however, it is his assertion that the docuмents with which the Church has made ??its aggiornamento or "update" to the realities of the modern world do not contain "dogmas or definitive statements."

Unlike. According says the archbishop, the position that the Fathers of Vatican II adopted regarding the relations of the Catholic Church with other Churches, other religions and the state are debatable, and clarificables, regarding the "canonical recognition" or "degree of acceptance "requiring both by members of the SSPX as that of Catholics who are already in communion with Rome.

As a sign of this project relativization of the importance of Vatican II, which, in the version of Archbishop Pozzo, have formed part of the negotiations in Rome with ultratraditionalist group FSSPX- the prelate has rejected the interpretation given to the declaration Nostra Aetate any significance beyond that of a collection of "pastoral practices and standards."



Such declaration "has no dogmatic authority, and as such no one can demand that one recognizes it as dogmatic". Moreover, "this statement can only be understood in the light of tradition and the continual Magisterium," which is to say that any reading of that statement asserting that "there is an independent salvific way of Christ and His Church ... is totally unfounded and it must be rejected. "

In the opinion of the secretary of Ecclesia Dei, such a waiver, in the Church today, the doctrine of extra ecclesiam nulla salus - "outside the Church there is no salvation" - is the result of an ephemeral "Spirit of the Council" which also have caused much "confusion and uncertainty", would be the direct culprit that has not yet unity between the Church of Rome and the Fraternity of St. Pius X.

This "spirit" of opening -at which, it should be noted, reforms of the Catholic Church should be for the last fifty years is not, for the Archbishop Pozzo, nothing but a zeitgeist - "the spirit of the age" - that in addition to having manipulated, distorted or clipped messages Council and potatoes, "it has nothing to do with the Tradition of the Church."

And it is in this sense -in the necessary shift to the Vatican II is no longer interpreted as "a super pastoral dogma, but part of the whole tradition and the constant magisterium" - that discussions with the Lefebvrians to Pozzo, they are being especially fruitful.



The other facet of the design of Archbishop Pozzo for possible reconciliation of the SSPX with the Church of Rome is, if anything, even more troubling. The approach to the Lefebvrians have passed, so the prelate revealed this week Die Zeit, a redefinition of those who are "really the essential requirements to be Catholic , " and that from a hermeneutics of "decisive background of Tradition keep going".

"We agree with the Fraternity," says Monsignor Pozzo, "on the principle that the Council [Vatican II] can only be accurately understood in the context of the whole of Tradition and the perennial Magisterium". But it is arguable that the reforms of Vatican II to dialogue with, and appreciation of, other religions, other Churches and ideologically pluralistic societies should be considered "innovations" to the "true faith" or as "adjustments" to zeitgeist-and therefore, according to the Archbishop Pozzo inadmissible under the "hermeneutics of continuity" - or as a natural development of the depositum fidei.

Pozzo appointment to the Secretary of the Council, Cardinal Pericle Felici, and then - Secretary of the Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity, Archbishop Johannes Willebrands, in an attempt to diminish the importance of Nostra Aetate and other "pastoral" docuмents -and not dogmatists "- the Council.

"When the Pope [Francisco] appointed me again as Secretary of the Commission Ecclesia Dei," Pozzo also reveals the German weekly, "I urged dialogue with patience, determination and unhurried." Hence the criteria imposed by the pontiff -along with the necessary "to create a climate of trust" "personal relationships" and involvement "in evangelization and charitable work" - for which should be assessed any future definitive agreement with SSPX.

"The style and layout Francisco concrete help achieve unity among people not only to think but also to learn," says Archbishop Pozzo. Is this insistence of Pope Bergoglio in pastoral, mercy and transformation through the meeting which will be the only criterion to judge to what extent the discussion with Lefebvre has been "enriching for the whole Church" as Pozzo intended to be .

I think I've got it!

Now I know why +Fellay had to oust +Williamson:  he couldn't abide by the fact of +W's mastery of the English language.  

+Fellay was JEALOUS of his brother bishop's English language proficiency -- something that would forever be beyond +F's grasp, as his mother tongue is elsewhere and he's always thinking in Swiss or German or French and translating INTO English, at BEST.  Whereas +W doesn't have that handicap.

Point in fact:
The following is a poor translation into English, and it is OBVIOUSLY one not rendered by Bishop Williamson, because if he had done the translation it would be comprehensible in English.  Period.

Of course, for +W to undertake such a task would demand a degree of torture for him, since the content of the message, below, would be a miserable task to put into clear words.  E.g., lot of it is inherently unclear.

Silly Romans, you weren't supposed to let the cat out of the bag until the Feast of the Assumption twenty...SEVENTEEN, AFTER the Rosary Crusade!

Uhoh, someone didn't read the script.  It 'll be interesting to see how this plays out.  The article clearly says "accepts ".

 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.periodistadigital.com%2Freligion%2Fvaticano%2F2016%2F08%2F13%2Freligion-iglesia-vaticano-monsenor-guido-pozzo-ecclesia-dei-la-fraternidad-de-san-pio-x-ha-aceptado-la-proposicion-de-una-prelatura-personal.shtml

Guido Pozzo: the Fraternity of St. Pius X "has accepted" the proposal of a personal prelature

The offer of this canonical structure "is a great vote of confidence in the SSPX"
Cameron Doody, August 13, 2016 at 22:04

Lefebvrian again break the dialogue with Rome and accused the Pope of "promoting confusion"

Francisco could grant a personal prelature or an Ordinariate to Lefebvrians
Francisco met on Saturday with the leader of the Lefebvrians
We agree with the Fraternity on the principle that the council can only be accurately understood in the context of the whole of Tradition and the perennial Magisterium

Vatican II /> Vatican II
Vatican II
(Cameron Doody).- The superior of the schismatic and ultraconservative Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), Bernard Fellay, "has accepted" the offer from the Vatican that this group be reconciled with the Church of Rome under the figure of a prelature staff, though, so that this proposal becomes effective, "there are still details to clarify."

This is what has been revealed this week the Vatican in charge of negotiations with Lefebvrians -the secretary of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, Monsignor Guido Pozzo - who also explained that "the core of the discussion" which is still pending, "it is the question of to what extent the texts of Vatican II in continuity with the constant teaching of the Church."

As explained Archbishop Pozzo German newspaper Die Zeit, the ultra group still has "difficulties" with the declaration Nostra Aetate and Unitatis Redintegratio Dignitatis Humanae declaration - docuмents all Vatican II - plus "issues regarding relations Christianity with modernity."

With his statements, the prelate did not reveal anything new that was not already know[n]. What does cause some surprise, however, it is his assertion that the docuмents with which the Church has made ??its aggiornamento or "update" to the realities of the modern world do not contain "dogmas or definitive statements."

Unlike.

What is this? Unlike as in Facebook or what??!!

According says the archbishop, the position that the Fathers of Vatican II adopted regarding the relations of the Catholic Church with other Churches, other religions and the state are debatable, and clarificables,

Clarificables??

In any case, the underlined is not a sentence.

regarding the "canonical recognition" or "degree of acceptance "requiring both by members of the SSPX as that of Catholics who are already in communion with Rome.

As a sign of this project relativization of the importance of Vatican II, which, in the version of Archbishop Pozzo, have formed part of the negotiations in Rome with ultratraditionalist group FSSPX- the prelate has rejected the interpretation given to the declaration Nostra Aetate any significance beyond that of a collection of "pastoral practices and standards."

Such declaration "has no dogmatic authority, and as such no one can demand that one recognizes it as dogmatic".

Correction:  

Nothing in Vatican II Has Any Dogmatic Authority.

Nothing Whatsoever.

Moreover, "this statement can only be understood in the light of tradition and the continual Magisterium," which is to say that any reading of that statement asserting that "there is an independent salvific way of Christ and His Church ... is totally unfounded and it must be rejected. "

In the opinion of the secretary of Ecclesia Dei, such a waiver, in the Church today, the doctrine of extra ecclesiam nulla salus - "outside the Church there is no salvation" - is the result of an ephemeral "Spirit of the Council" which also have caused much "confusion and uncertainty", would be the direct culprit that has not yet unity between the Church of Rome and the Fraternity of St. Pius X.

This "spirit" of opening -at which, it should be noted, reforms of the Catholic Church should be for the last fifty years is not, for the Archbishop Pozzo, nothing but a zeitgeist - "the spirit of the age" - that in addition to having manipulated, distorted or clipped messages Council and potatoes, "it has nothing to do with the Tradition of the Church."

And it is in this sense -in the necessary shift to the Vatican II is no longer interpreted as "a super pastoral dogma, but part of the whole tradition and the constant magisterium" - that discussions with the Lefebvrians to Pozzo, they are being especially fruitful.



The other facet of the design of Archbishop Pozzo for possible reconciliation of the SSPX with the Church of Rome is, if anything, even more troubling. The approach to the Lefebvrians have passed, so the prelate revealed this week Die Zeit, a redefinition of those who are "really the essential requirements to be Catholic , " and that from a hermeneutics of "decisive background of Tradition keep going".

"We agree with the Fraternity," says Monsignor Pozzo, "on the principle that the Council [Vatican II] can only be accurately understood in the context of the whole of Tradition and the perennial Magisterium". But it is arguable that the reforms of Vatican II to dialogue with, and appreciation of, other religions, other Churches and ideologically pluralistic societies should be considered "innovations" to the "true faith" or as "adjustments" to zeitgeist-and therefore, according to the Archbishop Pozzo inadmissible under the "hermeneutics of continuity" - or as a natural development of the depositum fidei.

Pozzo appointment to the Secretary of the Council, Cardinal Pericle Felici, and then - Secretary of the Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity, Archbishop Johannes Willebrands, in an attempt to diminish the importance of Nostra Aetate and other "pastoral" docuмents -and not dogmatists "- the Council.

"When the Pope [Francisco] appointed me again as Secretary of the Commission Ecclesia Dei," Pozzo also reveals the German weekly, "I urged dialogue with patience, determination and unhurried." Hence the criteria imposed by the pontiff -along with the necessary "to create a climate of trust" "personal relationships" and involvement "in evangelization and charitable work" - for which should be assessed any future definitive agreement with SSPX.

"The style and layout Francisco concrete help achieve unity among people not only to think but also to learn," says Archbishop Pozzo. Is this insistence of Pope Bergoglio in pastoral, mercy and transformation through the meeting which will be the only criterion to judge to what extent the discussion with Lefebvre has been "enriching for the whole Church" as Pozzo intended to be.

Now it's "Pope Bergoglio?"  Someone has been reading Traditio.com too much (Abp. Pozzo??).

The final paragraph is a real charmer.

In sum, it is this waffling over Vatican II that is the problem.

There is precisely one answer to Vatcian II:  THROW IT OUT.

No part of it is worth keeping because it's all tainted with the devil's handiwork.  Get rid of it.  So long as the SSPX dares to play footsie with this part or that part or what to keep or how to keep it, there will be endless war.  It's a poisoned cake, and any good mother won't be careful to cut out the poison and only serve the unaffected cake to her family.  She throws the whole cake into the "dust bin" as +W says.

SSPX Prelature

  I just heard it announced on Voris'  daily news. I'll try to post a link.

The article from Religion Digital says "Has Accepted" and has picture of SSPX priests lined up at the Vatican. If this picture new or old?

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.periodistadigital.com%2Freligion%2Fvaticano%2F2016%2F08%2F13%2Freligion-iglesia-vaticano-monsenor-guido-pozzo-ecclesia-dei-la-fraternidad-de-san-pio-x-ha-aceptado-la-proposicion-de-una-prelatura-personal.shtml

The article also says: "so that this proposal becomes effective, "there are still details to clarify." but if the picture is new...

Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant

SSPX Prelature

  I just heard it announced on Voris'  daily news. I'll try to post a link.

The article from Religion Digital says "Has Accepted" and has picture of SSPX priests lined up at the Vatican. If this picture new or old?

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.periodistadigital.com%2Freligion%2Fvaticano%2F2016%2F08%2F13%2Freligion-iglesia-vaticano-monsenor-guido-pozzo-ecclesia-dei-la-fraternidad-de-san-pio-x-ha-aceptado-la-proposicion-de-una-prelatura-personal.shtml

The article also says: "so that this proposal becomes effective, "there are still details to clarify." but if the picture is new...

That picture is from 2000 when the SSPX went on pilgrimage to Rome for the Holy Year Jubilee.

I feel like a similar thread has popped up literally once a week for the past 3 years on this forum claiming an agreement that would be announced "very soon."