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Author Topic: Great Post on AQ Condemns Bishop Fellay  (Read 14647 times)

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Great Post on AQ Condemns Bishop Fellay
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2012, 01:02:00 PM »
Nishant2011 the broken record repeats the same arguments.

Great Post on AQ Condemns Bishop Fellay
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2012, 06:29:44 PM »
Quote from: Nishant2011
Quote from: Seraphim
 Still fixating on the quality of the deal, ratheer than asking why we are talking about a deal at all the doctrinal issues remain.

  Any talk of a deal while Rome is unconverted is an implicit acceptance of dogmatic pluralism in the Church.

  No Catholic, much less Archbishop Lefebvre, would stand for this!


Dear Seraphim, well, I really don't mean to be contentious here, but are you sure the Archbishop would have rejected a priori any offer whatsoever of canonical regularization?

Quote from: On 6 Sept, 1990, Archbishop Lefebvre
Someone was saying to me yesterday, "But what if Rome accepted your bishops and then you were completely exempted from the other bishops' jurisdiction?" But firstly, they are a long way right now from accepting any such thing, and then, let them first make us such an offer! But I do not think they are anywhere near doing so.


This is Bishop Fellay's own justification for being open to the possibility, through prayer and prudence, that this may be God's will - i.e. there are no prior grounds to think that it absolutely cannot be, nor did Archbishop Lefebvre say that he would absolutely refuse to consider it, even at that time. He merely said he would put the discussion on the doctrinal level, and this the SSPX under Bishop Fellay has done, and done, in my humble opinion, very well.

I think the virtue of prudence also calls for heeding the advice of one's confreres, and reasonable honesty with those souls under your pastoral care, and in this regard I feel Bishop Fellay should do more, without simply resorting to threats or appeals to obedience, to state plainly and clearly why he believes this is the course God is laying out for the Society.

Also, when you say again that nothing has changed regarding doctrine, I ask, what of the works of Msgr. Gherardini, Bishop Athanasius Schneider et al? Is the present environment at the least not a vast improvement from the Archbishop's day when many persons and groups were simply uninterested in discussing or considering doctrine at all?


   Your post of this ABL snippet is disengenuous, as proven by the context from when it was clipped:

1) Just prior, he rules out any talk of a merely practical deal

2) But then proceeds to discuss, as a theoretical exercise and afterthought, why such talk is nonsense anyway when the Romans are set against it

3) You would have this snippet evince that were the Roman not opposed at that time, ABL would sign?

4) Shame on you.


Great Post on AQ Condemns Bishop Fellay
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2012, 11:04:53 AM »
Anthony M, well, I had hoped to avoid casting personal aspersions, but anyway.

Quote from: Seraphim
 Your post of this ABL snippet is disengenuous, as proven by the context from when it was clipped:


Here, then, is a larger portion, two entire paragraphs, of the relevant passage, along with a link to the full speech.

Quote
What is going to happen? I do not know. Perhaps the coming of Elias! I was just reading this morning in Holy Scripture, Elias will return and put everything back in place! "Et omnia restituet" —"and he will restore all things." Goodness gracious, let him come straightaway! I do not know. But humanly speaking, there is no chance of any agreement between Rome and ourselves at the moment.

Someone was saying to me yesterday, "But what if Rome accepted your bishops and then you were completely exempted from the other bishops' jurisdiction?" But firstly, they are a long way right now from accepting any such thing, and then, let them first make us such an offer! But I do not think they are anywhere near doing so. For what has been up till now the difficulty has been precisely their giving to us a Traditionalist bishop. They did not want to. It had to be a bishop according to the profile laid down by the Holy See. "Profile". You see what that means! Impossible. They knew very well that by giving us a traditional bishop they would be setting up a Traditionalist citadel able to continue. That they did not want. Nor did they give it to St. Peter's Society. When St. Peter's say they signed the sane Protocol as we did in May, 1988, it is not true because in our Protocol there was one bishop, and two members of the Roman Commission, of which their Protocol had neither. So they did not sign the same Protocol as we did. Rome took advantage of drawing up a new Protocol to remove those two concessions. At all costs they wanted to avoid that. So we had to do as we did on June 30, 1988...  


There is one simple consideration that proves your position untenable in the first place - why Archbishop Lefebvre even considered signing an agreement with Rome for the removal of prior irregularities in 1988 at all.

So, on the contrary, it does indeed show that Archbishop Lefebvre did not consider accepting an offer of regularization as intrinsically evil (which contradicting the faith or "implicitly accepting doctrinal pluralism" would be).
else he would never have considered it under any circuмstances.

But he considered the offer, as he says above, because of the possibility of gaining a Bishop to continue his work. In the present day, by a regularization, Rome would de facto grant ordinary jurisdiction to, and recognize all four of the Bishops he himself chose.


Great Post on AQ Condemns Bishop Fellay
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2012, 02:57:04 PM »
Quote from: Nishant2011
Anthony M, well, I had hoped to avoid casting personal aspersions, but anyway.

Quote from: Seraphim
 Your post of this ABL snippet is disengenuous, as proven by the context from when it was clipped:


Here, then, is a larger portion, two entire paragraphs, of the relevant passage, along with a link to the full speech.

Quote
What is going to happen? I do not know. Perhaps the coming of Elias! I was just reading this morning in Holy Scripture, Elias will return and put everything back in place! "Et omnia restituet" —"and he will restore all things." Goodness gracious, let him come straightaway! I do not know. But humanly speaking, there is no chance of any agreement between Rome and ourselves at the moment.

Someone was saying to me yesterday, "But what if Rome accepted your bishops and then you were completely exempted from the other bishops' jurisdiction?" But firstly, they are a long way right now from accepting any such thing, and then, let them first make us such an offer! But I do not think they are anywhere near doing so. For what has been up till now the difficulty has been precisely their giving to us a Traditionalist bishop. They did not want to. It had to be a bishop according to the profile laid down by the Holy See. "Profile". You see what that means! Impossible. They knew very well that by giving us a traditional bishop they would be setting up a Traditionalist citadel able to continue. That they did not want. Nor did they give it to St. Peter's Society. When St. Peter's say they signed the sane Protocol as we did in May, 1988, it is not true because in our Protocol there was one bishop, and two members of the Roman Commission, of which their Protocol had neither. So they did not sign the same Protocol as we did. Rome took advantage of drawing up a new Protocol to remove those two concessions. At all costs they wanted to avoid that. So we had to do as we did on June 30, 1988...  


There is one simple consideration that proves your position untenable in the first place - why Archbishop Lefebvre even considered signing an agreement with Rome for the removal of prior irregularities in 1988 at all.

So, on the contrary, it does indeed show that Archbishop Lefebvre did not consider accepting an offer of regularization as intrinsically evil (which contradicting the faith or "implicitly accepting doctrinal pluralism" would be).
else he would never have considered it under any circuмstances.

But he considered the offer, as he says above, because of the possibility of gaining a Bishop to continue his work. In the present day, by a regularization, Rome would de facto grant ordinary jurisdiction to, and recognize all four of the Bishops he himself chose.



   Not sure you are reading the same article you pasted a link to?

   I would invite the faithful here to read it, and decide for themselves whether any reasonable person would conclude from it that ABL entertained the possibility of agreeing to a purely practical agreement.

 

Great Post on AQ Condemns Bishop Fellay
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2012, 04:38:32 PM »
Quote from: Nishant2011
Anthony M, well, I had hoped to avoid casting personal aspersions, but anyway.

Quote from: Seraphim
 Your post of this ABL snippet is disengenuous, as proven by the context from when it was clipped:


Here, then, is a larger portion, two entire paragraphs, of the relevant passage, along with a link to the full speech.

Quote
What is going to happen? I do not know. Perhaps the coming of Elias! I was just reading this morning in Holy Scripture, Elias will return and put everything back in place! "Et omnia restituet" —"and he will restore all things." Goodness gracious, let him come straightaway! I do not know. But humanly speaking, there is no chance of any agreement between Rome and ourselves at the moment.

Someone was saying to me yesterday, "But what if Rome accepted your bishops and then you were completely exempted from the other bishops' jurisdiction?" But firstly, they are a long way right now from accepting any such thing, and then, let them first make us such an offer! But I do not think they are anywhere near doing so. For what has been up till now the difficulty has been precisely their giving to us a Traditionalist bishop. They did not want to. It had to be a bishop according to the profile laid down by the Holy See. "Profile". You see what that means! Impossible. They knew very well that by giving us a traditional bishop they would be setting up a Traditionalist citadel able to continue. That they did not want. Nor did they give it to St. Peter's Society. When St. Peter's say they signed the sane Protocol as we did in May, 1988, it is not true because in our Protocol there was one bishop, and two members of the Roman Commission, of which their Protocol had neither. So they did not sign the same Protocol as we did. Rome took advantage of drawing up a new Protocol to remove those two concessions. At all costs they wanted to avoid that. So we had to do as we did on June 30, 1988...  


There is one simple consideration that proves your position untenable in the first place - why Archbishop Lefebvre even considered signing an agreement with Rome for the removal of prior irregularities in 1988 at all.

So, on the contrary, it does indeed show that Archbishop Lefebvre did not consider accepting an offer of regularization as intrinsically evil (which contradicting the faith or "implicitly accepting doctrinal pluralism" would be).
else he would never have considered it under any circuмstances.

But he considered the offer, as he says above, because of the possibility of gaining a Bishop to continue his work. In the present day, by a regularization, Rome would de facto grant ordinary jurisdiction to, and recognize all four of the Bishops he himself chose.



From the same article you are quoting, which will dispel any illusions as to whether ABL was angling here for a practical agreement:


"WE MUST NOT WAVER


"Well, we find ourselves in the same situation. We must not be under any illusions. Consequently we are in the thick of a great fight, a great fight. We are fighting a fight guaranteed by a whole line of Popes. Hence, we should have no hesitation or fear, hesitation such as, "Why should we be going on our own? After all, why not join Rome, why not join the Pope?" Yes, if Rome and the Pope were in line with Tradition, if they were carrying on the work of all the Popes of the 19th and the first half of the 20th century, of course. But they themselves admit that they have set out on a new path. They themselves admit that a new era began with Vatican II. They admit that it is a new stage in the Church's life, wholly new, based on new principles. We need not argue the point. They say it themselves. It is clear. I think that we must drive this point home with our people, in such a way that they realize their oneness with the Church's whole history, going back well beyond the Revolution. Of course. It is the fight of the City of Satan against the City of God. Clearly. So we do not have to worry. We must after all trust in the grace of God.


"What is going to happen? How is it all going to end?" That is God's secret. Mystery. But that we must fight the ideas presently fashionable in Rome, coming from the Pope's own mouth, Cardinal Ratzinger's mouth, Cardinal Casaroli's mouth, of Cardinal Willebrands and those like them, is clear, clear, for all they do is repeat the opposite of what the Popes said and solemnly stated for 150 years. We must choose, as I said to Pope Paul VI: "We have to choose between you and the Council on one side, and your predecessors on the other; either with your predecessors who stated the Church's teaching, or with the novelties of Vatican II." Reply —"Ah, this is not the moment to get into theology, we are not getting into theology now." It is clear. Hence we must not waver for one moment.


"A FALSE CHARITY


"And we must not waver for one moment either in not being with those who are in the process of betraying us. Some people are always admiring the grass in the neighbor's field. Instead of looking to their friends, to the Church's defenders, to those fighting on the battlefield, they look to our enemies on the other side. "After all, we must be charitable, we must be kind, we must not be divisive, after all, they are celebrating the Tridentine Mass, they are not as bad as everyone says" —but THEY ARE BETRAYING US —betraying us! They are shaking hands with the Church's destroyers. They are shaking hands with people holding modernist and liberal ideas condemned by the Church. So they are doing the devil's work.


"Thus those who were with us and were working with us for the rights of Our Lord, for the salvation of souls, are now saying, "So long as they grant us the old Mass, we can shake hands with Rome, no problem." But we are seeing how it works out. They are in an impossible situation. Impossible. One cannot both shake hands with modernists and keep following Tradition. Not possible. Not possible. Now, stay in touch with them to bring them back, to convert them to Tradition, yes, if you like, that's the right kind of ecuмenism! But give the impression that after all one almost regrets any break, that one likes talking to them? No way! These are people who call us corpse-like Traditionalists, they are saying that we are as rigid as corpses, ours is not a living Tradition, we are glum-faced, ours is a glum Tradition! Unbelievable! Unimaginable! What kind of relations can you have with people like that?


"This is what causes us a problem with certain layfolk, who are very nice, very good people, all for the Society, who accepted the Consecrations, but who have a kind of deep-down regret that they are no longer with the people they used to be with, people who did not accept the Consecrations and who are now against us. "It's a pity we are divided", they say, "why not meet up with them? Let's go and have a drink together, reach out a hand to them" —that's a betrayal! Those saying this give the impression that at the drop of a hat they would cross over and join those who left us. They must make up their minds.


"WE CANNOT COMPROMISE


"That is what killed Christendom, in all of Europe, not just the Church in France, but the Church in Germany, in Switzerland —that is what enabled the Revolution to get established. It was the Liberals, it was those who reached out a hand to people who did not share their Catholic principles. We must make up our minds if we too want to collaborate in the destruction of the Church and in the ruin of the Social Kingship of Christ the King, or are we resolved to continue working for the Kingship of Our Lord Jesus Christ? All those who wish to join us, and work with us, Deo Gratias, we welcome them, wherever they come from, that's not a problem, but let them come with us, let them not say they are going a different way in order to keep company with the liberals that left us and in order to work with them. Not possible.