Author Topic: Give to the Rich (Read 6718 times)

Last Tradhican · « **on:** August 30, 2016, 07:11:30 AM »

In the ordinary course of human interactions, the poor do not donate money and free labor to the rich.

One judges the wealth of others by how they live. The SSPX is building a $100,000,000 seminary, and many other unnecessary buildings all over the United States. Their parishioners are young families with many children to raise. One can only look upon these young parents with admiration, the ultimate sacrifice, a large family. Rarely can any of them look forward to anything but nonstop work for the rest of their lives.

So, how is it that the SSPX can ask for money from its parishioners? The rich are asking the poor for donations.

By their deeds you shall know them.

cath4ever · « **Reply #1 on:** August 30, 2016, 11:53:50 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

So, how is it that the SSPX can ask for money from its parishioners? The rich are asking the poor for donations.

I don't agree. All one has to do is look at the majority of older Catholic churches in any major US city and one will see masterpieces built by the generous donations of the poor...who scrimped and saved to have buildings like that, for God's glory.

If you don't want to give to the new Seminary, you don't have to do so. If any poor family doesn't have money to give, or doesn't want to give, they don't have to do so. If money were being taxed out of existing SSPX chapels for the new Seminary then that would be a different question, but I am not aware that that’s the case.

The same sentiment that is expressed in this OP could very easily (and probably was) used back between 1880 and 1920, when many of those older Churches were built, i.e., “How can the Catholic Church expect poor immigrants to pay to build huge churches when the Vatican is worth millions in assets?”

Matthew · « **Reply #2 on:** August 30, 2016, 12:43:13 PM »

Quote from: cath4ever

Quote from: Last Tradhican
So, how is it that the SSPX can ask for money from its parishioners? The rich are asking the poor for donations.

The same sentiment that is expressed in this OP could very easily (and probably was) used back between 1880 and 1920, when many of those older Churches were built, i.e., “How can the Catholic Church expect poor immigrants to pay to build huge churches when the Vatican is worth millions in assets?”

I don't think it's the same situation at all.

The Church wasn't in crisis back then. Also, those immigrants scrimped and saved for a glorious church IN THEIR OWN BACKYARD. So if they stayed in their hometown, they would be sure to benefit from that church until their death, and their children and grandchildren would benefit by it as well.

I don't think poor people dug nearly as deep to build a seminary on the other side of the country.

But even if they did, it was because there were DOZENS of TRUE CHURCHES (not oratories, chapels, or rented hotels) in their own hometown. So they could choose to be generous to help the formation of priests, the foreign missions, or Peter's Pence.

Compare that to the SSPX today. Some chapels (Austin, TX) don't even have a permanent location of their own. Others are in dilapidated old buildings that used to be protestant churches. And let's not forget about all the locations where there is no Mass offered at all!

Today, it could be successfully argued that the SSPX doesn't have the money to be building a "fancy" 100 million dollar seminary. They should be taking better care of their parishioners (souls) instead.

As one person so eloquently put it, "You don't build monuments during a time of crisis."

When everyone is floating around on the open sea in dozens of lifeboats, you don't waste your time and resources making one of the lifeboats into a "conversation piece". You spend ALL your precious time and energy on the care of souls -- finding more food and water, repairing the various lifeboats, trying to find more survivors floating on driftwood, etc.

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** August 30, 2016, 12:48:25 PM »

That willingness to DIG DEEP is still seen today, in the various Resistance groups that put together their resources and build permanent chapels -- sometimes completely on their own.

These individuals and groups of laymen figure that the money they spend building up a chapel will always benefit them and their families spiritually, so they're willing to sacrifice. Even if something happened to their priest (death, desertion, etc.) they'd still have the chapel and maybe that would help them in their subsequent quest to find another priest.

Looking out for one's own spiritual benefit, and that of one's family, is not being selfish. It's actually following God's will, and putting God first.

Wessex · « **Reply #4 on:** August 31, 2016, 04:35:42 AM »

Religion has always been a cash cow. The humble make offerings to the gods in order to ease their passage through life and hope for some special treatment beyond. It is an old convenient model The barons and noblemen cottoned on to this practice and diverted some of this free money to their own use. They called it taxation and it paid for wars as exercises of their power. Nothing has changed where the elite again keep control through taxation, currency debasement and laws to protect monopolies.

The enrichment of churches is their own downfall. The clergy, more interested in a comfortable life than in barely-remembered principles, shamelessly display their base humanity and fool the faithful into giving to vague noble causes. One of these is called charity and we all know the monster of an industry that is now based on this self-indulgent concept. Bursar Fellay will not be backward in reflecting his Swiss propensities and in offering his branded services to those privileged in knowing the value of them. That value is apparently in need of displays of vulgar ostentation and elitist pretension in order to justify itself.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #5 on:** September 01, 2016, 12:52:38 AM »

Quote

All one has to do is look at the majority of older Catholic churches in any major US city and one will see masterpieces built by the generous donations of the poor...who scrimped and saved to have buildings like that, for God's glory.

A false idea of history. The poor could scarcely put pennies into the the collection basket, nor had they the time to donate, as they were living from hand to mouth. A few rich paid for those churches, and the congregation did their part by putting what they could in the collection basket just to maintain what was already there. The poor by putting in one penny, made a huge contribution relative to their income, but it could not build anything. The immigrants that provided labor to build the churches were all paid, though, again, relative to their income, they made great sacrifices.

Quote

If you don't want to give to the new Seminary, you don't have to do so.

ALL the chapels of the SSPX were once independent chapels, and the congregation, land and buildings were given to the SSPX. That is how the SSPX came to own property.

This $100,000,000 ++ seminary is being built with the SSPX's own money, a A donation from a rich family in Europe with a shady background. The SSPX is now rich, from all the properties that were given to them, and now REALLY even more by this $100,000,000. It is they that need to pay for the new chapels that are needed by the faithful. With $100,000,000++, they could have built 500 chapels of the kind needed for our times. Then the parishioners could pay for the maintenance with their weekly donations of time and money.

The SSPX wants the faithful to give them the land, property, the congregation, and pay the maintenance, while they pocket the wealth.

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #6 on:** September 01, 2016, 01:37:37 AM »

Fascinating thread. Matthew, I wonder if you are onto something. I've only been attending a year, and I've seen something notable in my locale.

Matthew · « **Reply #7 on:** September 01, 2016, 04:08:31 AM »

Quote from: Wessex

Religion has always been a cash cow. The humble make offerings to the gods in order to ease their passage through life and hope for some special treatment beyond. It is an old convenient model The barons and noblemen cottoned on to this practice and diverted some of this free money to their own use. They called it taxation and it paid for wars as exercises of their power. Nothing has changed where the elite again keep control through taxation, currency debasement and laws to protect monopolies.

Wessex, I dislike virtually all your posts in the past 3 or 4 years, but this one is a new low even for you.

So now you're an iconoclast, a "poor Church" advocate? I suppose you're glad the Church took some few steps in the "right" direction after Vatican II by selling the Papal tiara to give to the poor?

Let me just ask you one thing. When you speak of how "Religion is a cash cow" (which isn't too far from "Religion is the opium of the masses"), do you consider yourself religious? You certainly must not be one of the silly sheep who stupidly feed that cash cow, right?

You MUST be on the outside looking in, when you speak of religion...

If I take your post seriously, it honestly seems like you don't believe in God or religion.

You might as well side with the atheists in calling religion "superstition" as well. Sure, many Catholics are superstitious (just look in Mexico). But that doesn't mean it's warranted to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Enemies of God and attack religion as "so much superstition". Fundamentally it is not -- we on CathInfo know better. Religion is not to be blamed for the imperfections of fallen man.

TKGS · « **Reply #8 on:** September 01, 2016, 05:55:32 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

The SSPX is building ... many other unnecessary buildings all over the United States.

I found this statement curious. Could you elaborate? As one who is not particularly involved in the SSPX, I was wondering what they are building beside the seminary.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #9 on:** September 01, 2016, 08:26:22 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: Wessex
Religion has always been a cash cow. The humble make offerings to the gods in order to ease their passage through life and hope for some special treatment beyond. It is an old convenient model The barons and noblemen cottoned on to this practice and diverted some of this free money to their own use. They called it taxation and it paid for wars as exercises of their power. Nothing has changed where the elite again keep control through taxation, currency debasement and laws to protect monopolies.

Wessex, I dislike virtually all your posts in the past 3 or 4 years, but this one is a new low even for you.

So now you're an iconoclast, a "poor Church" advocate? I suppose you're glad the Church took some few steps in the "right" direction after Vatican II by selling the Papal tiara to give to the poor?

Let me just ask you one thing. When you speak of how "Religion is a cash cow" (which isn't too far from "Religion is the opium of the masses"), do you consider yourself religious? You certainly must not be one of the silly sheep who stupidly feed that cash cow, right?

You MUST be on the outside looking in, when you speak of religion...

If I take your post seriously, it honestly seems like you don't believe in God or religion.

You might as well side with the atheists in calling religion "superstition" as well. Sure, many Catholics are superstitious (just look in Mexico). But that doesn't mean it's warranted to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Enemies of God and attack religion as "so much superstition". Fundamentally it is not -- we on CathInfo know better. Religion is not to be blamed for the imperfections of fallen man.

I understood he was writing about false religions and also making some jokes along the way.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #10 on:** September 01, 2016, 08:36:45 AM »

Quote from: TKGS

Quote from: Last Tradhican
The SSPX is building ... many other unnecessary buildings all over the United States.

I found this statement curious. Could you elaborate? As one who is not particularly involved in the SSPX, I was wondering what they are building beside the seminary.

Any building that can't be supported by the parishioners is an unnecessary burden thrust upon them. I'll give you some examples:

A big donor decides he wants to build a "monument" church, for 500 people and pays for it with his last penny. The SSPX accepts the offer (of course!),yet the parish contributors base is only 40 men (the head of the family). Then the parish has to pay the maintenance and the care of the the property and the priests from there on. There is no way 40 men can support a 500 person chapel. They are forever made slaves to maintaining this "gift". They would have been better off with a small chapel they could support.

How many such monuments are there all over the USA?

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #11 on:** September 01, 2016, 08:55:23 AM »

Unnecessary expense

An analogy that fishermen can understand or anyone that has had boats:

A man (The SSPX) wins a brand new yacht in a lottery, it is a 52' Hatteras, he tells his neighbor that he can use the yacht any time he wants, as long as he pays for ALL the fuel, maintenance, waxing, cleaning, repairs, parts, and insurance. The owner does not pay for anything, not even the fuel he uses. The neighbor is tickled pink, he does not know any better yet. After he uses the yacht a few times, he realizes that the work he is having to do to use the boat is not worth it, he does not need a 52' yacht. He goes and buys a 12' Aluminum boat with a 6 hp kicker.

Incredulous · « **Reply #12 on:** September 01, 2016, 10:23:08 AM »

This topic touches on an interesting concept, that the parish Church construction, reflects where the priests and their faithful's hearts and minds are.

Most of us have come upon old churches that are overwhelmingly beautiful, and wonder, "How did this come about?"

St. Joseph's Catholic Church, Louisville, KY

In America, there's remains many a humble neighborhood that holds an exquisite Catholic Church.
The surrounding neighborhood homes are poor structures from the 1930s, but the Church staggeringly beautiful.
An artistic piece of architecture, even by today's standards.

We can imagine the family scrimping and saving their change, to make their building fund collections, at a time when wages were meager and people were poor.

We can admire their legacy... and say, "Hey, these folks had their priorities straight!"

So, our Resistance forum is on the right track, when we point out the wrong path the SSPX has taken.

We see it in their laxity, their comprises and even their churches.

Poor Bishop Fellay. No wonder he is so secretive and defensive.

We can see where the hearts and minds of the xSPX are going to and it is damn ugly place?

stgobnait · « **Reply #13 on:** September 01, 2016, 10:55:39 AM »

That last picture is hideous, its like an night club.... God forgive them, I hope ABL will forgive them too. Difficult to imagine how someone could find a proper disposition to attend Mass in a building like that, it screams NOVUS ORDO.

TKGS · « **Reply #14 on:** September 01, 2016, 10:59:12 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: Last Tradhican
The SSPX is building ... many other unnecessary buildings all over the United States.

I found this statement curious. Could you elaborate? As one who is not particularly involved in the SSPX, I was wondering what they are building beside the seminary.

Any building that can't be supported by the parishioners is an unnecessary burden thrust upon them. I'll give you some examples:

A big donor decides he wants to build a "monument" church, for 500 people and pays for it with his last penny. The SSPX accepts the offer (of course!),yet the parish contributors base is only 40 men (the head of the family). Then the parish has to pay the maintenance and the care of the the property and the priests from there on. There is no way 40 men can support a 500 person chapel. They are forever made slaves to maintaining this "gift". They would have been better off with a small chapel they could support.

How many such monuments are there all over the USA?

This makes sense, though I really have no idea how many such monuments there are that fit this scenario. Every single SSPX church I have ever been in has (fewer than 10) has actually been fairly modest and clearly had a parishioner base consisting of many families.

Where are some of these large churches that are very burdensome to maintain given the low number of faithful? Until now, I had thought that the new seminary building was the only large scale building the SSPX built (or was building) that seemed a too costly.