Author Topic: Genuflecting and Rubrics (Read 4201 times)

JacobRCharpentier · « **on:** December 27, 2012, 11:27:32 PM »

This past Sunday (4th Sunday of Advent) we were treated to a lesson on genuflecting. Rules were, (1) down on the right knee (2) return to standing as soon as your knee touches down, (3) do it only once. The ONCE part was in reference to entering or leaving church. We were treated to more specific examples of what to or not to do. For example, when leaving after mass, exit your pew, genuflect and leave. Do not turn around and genuflect one more time when you make the Sign of the Cross. Another example. If you need to come to the sacristy after mass, genuflect once and the end of your pew and proceed to the sacristy. My note, you have to cut across the corner of the sanctuary to get to the sacristy. Most people will genuflect before they exit the sanctuary, regardless how brief the "sanctuary exposure" time may be. Could this be preparing us for the NO?

Now, to put this into a better perspective, I recall a sermon (never to be forgotten) by our former pastor (SSPX) who told the story of a protestant minister who did not believe in the True Presence, would joke about the Catholic belief in the True Presence and said if Catholics really believed Jesus Christ was really present in Holy Communion, we should all be crawling on our stomachs to receive Him. This should make us look at genuflecting as something more than a knee "touch down."

Thanks for indulging me and my paranoia.

Jake

Telesphorus · « **Reply #1 on:** December 27, 2012, 11:33:18 PM »

They are extremely manipulative people.

As Bowler says, people should adhere to custom.

Genuflect only once - we'll take care of the modesty issue.

It's enough to make you wonder who is giving these instructions? Who are they connected to?

Anthony Benedict · « **Reply #2 on:** December 28, 2012, 12:53:40 AM »

Extremely sad news, Jake.

When devout exercises of authentic veneration become "aerobicized", it's time
to look for the exits.

Quick question, are you by any chance a descendant of the great Baroque composer, Marc-Antoine Charpentier? ( I'll bet folks genuflected deeply and for awhile in his day! )

Here's a sample from his sacred works:

nipr · « **Reply #3 on:** December 28, 2012, 02:12:33 AM »

I was taught as a child by Catholic Sisters pre-Vatican II that when you genuflect, you should devoutly say an aspiration with your head bowed while down on your knee before you enter the pew or turn around to leave after Mass. It is done to honor God and help remind yourself of Whose presence you are in. Since you are in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, this should be done with all solemnity and humility and NOT rushed. We got severely reprimanded for rushing. This would be pretty difficult to do if you are genuflecting like a yo-yo. Since most people did this, no one minded waiting a few seconds longer to exit the pew while those ahead of them genuflected. You also made the Sign of the Cross while genuflecting and that was done with solemnity as well.

As for modesty, we were taught that a woman may turn her body from the waist down a little towards the pew if she is concerned about being properly covered when in this position, but the head and torso should be facing God in the Tabernacle. If you have to turn more than "a little" towards the pew, your skirt is too short and/or too tight.

We were taught that EVERYTHING one does in Church should be done with dignity and solemnity because we are in the presence of God.

Note: For anyone who doesn't know, an aspiration is a short prayer of adoration or petition, etc. Example: My Lord and my God!

nipr · « **Reply #4 on:** December 28, 2012, 03:00:39 AM »

Beautiful music, Anthony Benedict. Thank you for sharing!

TKGS · « **Reply #5 on:** December 28, 2012, 08:03:29 AM »

One pope, I do not remember which one but I think it may have been Pope St. Pius X, condemned the Modernist practice of certain priests and theologians who would discourage the pious practices of the simple faithful unless those practices were actually sinful or damaging to the faith. I wish I could provide the reference, but I simply must rely on memory here so the reader will have to take it for what it's worth.

It does make sense, however, that if the pious practices of the faithful do not lead to a loss of true faith then, even if they are not actively encouraged, they should not be actively discouraged.

I wonder why a priest would ever think it necessary to discourage multiple genuflections to the Blessed Sacrament even if he thinks it not necessary. Frankly, it does not make any sense.

JacobRCharpentier · « **Reply #6 on:** December 28, 2012, 12:48:00 PM »

Quote from: Anthony Benedict

...Quick question, are you by any chance a descendant of the great Baroque composer, Marc-Antoine Charpentier? ( I'll bet folks genuflected deeply and for awhile in his day! )...

I would like to think so, but there is no evidence to support that position. John Charpentier came to the USA by an unusual path. He was on a prison ship, probably because he was a Huguenot. The ship was in England and there was a US naval vessel close by, in port. He jumped over board, swam to the US Navy ship and was transported back to the USA. That part of the family was not catholic until my grandfather wanted to marry a nice catholic girl. For what it's worth, my other grandfather's wife, my grandmother became a catholic. Both of them supported the faith without question.

Jake

JacobRCharpentier · « **Reply #7 on:** December 28, 2012, 01:01:38 PM »

Quote from: TKGS

...I wonder why a priest would ever think it necessary to discourage multiple genuflections to the Blessed Sacrament even if he thinks it not necessary. Frankly, it does not make any sense.

If you are old enough, you can think back to the pre-NO days. If not old enough, there is enough history. Anyhow, recall how the changes were gradual, seemingly innocent enough to the casual observer. This whole genuflecting thing is no different. It does not have to make sense, it just has to work. Like I said, paving the way. So, the priest is not really and actively discouraging the practice, he is just being a good little foot soldier, probalby not even understanding the ramifications of his actions. Then again, maybe he is sinister enough to understand in a clandestine way of course. We may never know.

We need to barrage Our Lord with our prayers that He send arrows of grace into the hearts of these little foot soldiers that the errors of their ways be illuminated before them, maybe the same way St. Hubertus was enlightened, figuratively speaking, of course.

Jake

bowler · « **Reply #8 on:** December 28, 2012, 02:03:14 PM »

Quote from: JacobRCharpentier

This past Sunday (4th Sunday of Advent) we were treated to a lesson on genuflecting. Rules were, (1) down on the right knee (2) return to standing as soon as your knee touches down, (3) do it only once. The ONCE part was in reference to entering or leaving church.

I genuflect and bow my head, and place my right fist on my heart, as I am in the presence of the King of Kings. Genuflecting quickly like a flinch, is disrespectful, and not noble.

Quote from: JacobRCharpentier

We were treated to more specific examples of what to or not to do. For example, when leaving after mass, exit your pew, genuflect and leave. Do not turn around and genuflect one more time when you make the Sign of the Cross.

If I were near the last row, sure, maybe that is the way I may do it. But for the rest of the seats, I will genuflect upon exiting my row, AND again when I take the Holy Water, turn and genuflect while doing the sign of the cross

Quote from: JacobRCharpentier

Another example. If you need to come to the sacristy after mass, genuflect once and the end of your pew and proceed to the sacristy

No way. That priest has no fear of God, the root cause of the Novus Ordo mindset!

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is prudence." Proverbs (9:10)

You have to genuflect in the sanctuary every time you go (in and out of the sacristy and) by the tabernacle, even via the side of the tabernacle. Someone like myself is lucky if God does not strike me down for even being so presumptuous as to think I can enter the sanctuary, let alone not genuflecting in the sanctuary. Moreover, before I enter the sanctuary, I always ask God to forgive me for even entering.

Bottom Line:

"All change, except from evil, is the most dangerous of all things" (Plato)

Am I doing anything evil? No. Is the new direction more respectful? No.

It is now your duty to consciously genuflect on all occasions, because the priest (and the laity following his example) are no longer good examples.

nipr · « **Reply #9 on:** December 28, 2012, 03:24:15 PM »

Quote from: JacobRCharpentier

Quote from: TKGS
...I wonder why a priest would ever think it necessary to discourage multiple genuflections to the Blessed Sacrament even if he thinks it not necessary. Frankly, it does not make any sense.

If you are old enough, you can think back to the pre-NO days. If not old enough, there is enough history. Anyhow, recall how the changes were gradual, seemingly innocent enough to the casual observer. This whole genuflecting thing is no different. It does not have to make sense, it just has to work. Like I said, paving the way. So, the priest is not really and actively discouraging the practice, he is just being a good little foot soldier, probalby not even understanding the ramifications of his actions. Then again, maybe he is sinister enough to understand in a clandestine way of course. We may never know.

We need to barrage Our Lord with our prayers that He send arrows of grace into the hearts of these little foot soldiers that the errors of their ways be illuminated before them, maybe the same way St. Hubertus was enlightened, figuratively speaking, of course.

Jake

AGREE 100% regarding how the changes came about and prayers needed. I fear SLOW BOILING IN PROCESS!!!

If not slow boiling, then I must wonder why these instructions NOW???? And more importantly, why discourage ANY acts of adoration of God done when they don't interfere with the Mass???? This is NOT how it used to be.

Anthony Benedict · « **Reply #10 on:** December 28, 2012, 03:47:13 PM »

That is a GREAT story, Jake. Merci!

Quote from: JacobRCharpentier

Quote from: Anthony Benedict
...Quick question, are you by any chance a descendant of the great Baroque composer, Marc-Antoine Charpentier? ( I'll bet folks genuflected deeply and for awhile in his day! )...

I would like to think so, but there is no evidence to support that position. John Charpentier came to the USA by an unusual path. He was on a prison ship, probably because he was a Huguenot. The ship was in England and there was a US naval vessel close by, in port. He jumped over board, swam to the US Navy ship and was transported back to the USA. That part of the family was not catholic until my grandfather wanted to marry a nice catholic girl. For what it's worth, my other grandfather's wife, my grandmother became a catholic. Both of them supported the faith without question.

Jake

Raphaela · « **Reply #11 on:** December 29, 2012, 06:09:01 PM »

As far as I know, a proper genuflection, as has always been taught to seminarians, for example, is made in a dignified way, i.e. not rushed, but not staying down on one knee, and with a straight back and head erect, looking at the tabernacle, and without making a sign of the cross.

But why are they getting didactic about it? People can add their own devotions if they like. One good custom I know, if it doesn't get in the way of anyone else, is, after genuflecting, to stay facing the tabernacle and say a short mental prayer, such as: "My Jesus, I believe Thou art truly here present in the most Holy Sacrament of Thy Love."

I always think it's better to genuflect immediately after entering the church, to acknowledge Our Lord first, rather than just before entering a pew, but that's just my idea!

1st Mansion Tenant · « **Reply #12 on:** December 29, 2012, 07:37:07 PM »

Ok- you guys lost me somewhere. Granted I am rather new to Tradition, but I thought it was proper to genuflect every time you passed in front of the tabernacle, and before entering or leaving the pew. That would mean upon entering and using the holywater, again when entering the pew, and anytime leaving and re-entering thereafter, as well as if you crossed directly in front of the altar in order to light candles or do anything else. Am I doing this wrong? No one has ever corrected me, so far. What about the side altars?

Sigismund · « **Reply #13 on:** December 30, 2012, 03:04:21 PM »

Why in the world would any Catholic, let alone a priest, with anything resembling sense want to chastise other Catholics for genuflecting TOO MUCH?

nipr · « **Reply #14 on:** December 30, 2012, 06:45:04 PM »

Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant

Ok- you guys lost me somewhere. Granted I am rather new to Tradition, but I thought it was proper to genuflect every time you passed in front of the tabernacle, and before entering or leaving the pew. That would mean upon entering and using the holywater, again when entering the pew, and anytime leaving and re-entering thereafter, as well as if you crossed directly in front of the altar in order to light candles or do anything else. Am I doing this wrong? No one has ever corrected me, so far. What about the side altars?

I remember what I wrote above. I do not recall being taught to genuflect when using Holy Water on entering or leaving the church. I may well have forgotten this part, but the Sisters marched us into church and out of church, two across, and we dipped our fingers in the Holy Water on entering and leaving the church and kept going without turning around. Turning around to genuflect again would have meant kid piling up upon kid, which I can picture happening now if many people were exiting or entering the church at one time -- people would be bumping into people and perhaps not see those down on their knee.

I was also taught like you said to genuflect when passing before the Blessed Sacrament and when in near proximity to It, as in approaching It from the side, etc. It is God present there Whom we bow down before. Whenever you are near God, you genuflect as a sign of humility and honor to Him.

The essence of what I remember is that you genuflect anytime you pass before the Blessed Sacrament or near It and especially before you turn your back on It and to genuflect after exiting the pew is sufficient because you then turn your back on It to leave the church.

As for side altars, I would assume the same rule applies: Where the Blessed Sacrament IS, you observe the rules for genuflection. If the Blessed Sacrament is on a side altar, THAT is where your genuflection should be directed

I was taught your genuflection is intended to honor the God's Presence in the Tabernacle which, at that time, was the center of the altar. We did not genuflect in honor of the altar but in honor of God Who was present on the main altar, as I don't ever recall the Blessed Sacrament being anywhere else. We saw side altars for Masses to be said there but we never witnessed one done there. They too had small Tabernacles but without the Blessed Sacrament within.

Perhaps the rules changed. This is all I remember. If the church is empty and/or I would not be in anyone's way, I would genuflect upon entering and exiting the doors too. I don't believe there is such a thing as honoring God too much!