Author Topic: Francis, your pope  (Read 8646 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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Francis, your pope
« on: April 02, 2014, 09:31:32 AM »
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  • We already know about the building mountains of evidence which suggests that Bergoglio is not a valid pope and never was, but whatabout those of you who accept Francis as the legitimate pontiff? What are you reasons? Why do you believe Bergoglio is the pope?

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline soulguard

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #1 on: April 02, 2014, 11:48:39 AM »
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  • 1 To have communion with other Catholics outside the sedevacantists
    2 To fulfill a necessary condition for my own salvation
    3 Because the church has not officially condemned him yet
    4 Because I dont have the authority to decide who is pope and who is not


    Offline BTNYC

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #2 on: April 02, 2014, 11:52:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: soulguard
    1 To have communion with other Catholics outside the sedevacantists
    2 To fulfill a necessary condition for my own salvation
    3 Because the church has not officially condemned him yet
    4 Because I dont have the authority to decide who is pope and who is not


    Very well put, SG. A solidly Catholic answer.

    My reasons are the same.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #3 on: April 02, 2014, 12:02:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: soulguard
    1 To have communion with other Catholics outside the sedevacantists
    2 To fulfill a necessary condition for my own salvation
    3 Because the church has not officially condemned him yet
    4 Because I dont have the authority to decide who is pope and who is not


    1. Generally, the R&R folks refuse communion with sedevacantist Catholics.  So I think no matter what you decide on the status of Jorge Bergoglio's claim to the papacy you are certain to not be in communion with at least some faithful Catholics.

    2. It is true that you must accept a true Pope but it is also true that you must reject false popes.  But if with a clear conscience you are mistaken one way or the other you will not be damned for that alone.

    3. Canon 188.4: “Through tacit resignation, accepted by the law itself, all offices become vacant ipso facto and without any declaration if a cleric: ...n.4. Has publicly forsaken the Catholic Faith.”

    4. Dozens of Catholic bishops and hundreds and maybe thousands of priests have already publicly declared that Jorge Bergoglio's claim to the papacy is invalid.

    Offline soulguard

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #4 on: April 02, 2014, 12:15:16 PM »
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  • @Clemens Maria

    I am convinced that Pope Francis will be remembered as an antipope, but until the judgement of a future truly Catholic pope declares him to be such, all I can do is go with the flow. I made up my mind to just say that Francis was the pope whenever asked because I started going to the SSPX and I wanted to fit in with the other Catholics there. The alternative was to stay at home or go anyway but not talk about the papacy and pretend to be in communion with the priest who prays for Francis.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #5 on: April 02, 2014, 12:22:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: soulguard
    @Clemens Maria
    I am convinced that Pope Francis will be remembered as an antipope, but until the judgement of a future truly Catholic pope declares him to be such, all I can do is go with the flow. I made up my mind to just say that Francis was the pope whenever asked because I started going to the SSPX and I wanted to fit in with the other Catholics there. The alternative was to stay at home or go anyway but not talk about the papacy and pretend to be in communion with the priest who prays for Francis.


    What will you do when the SSPX invites a Novus Ordo "bishop" (doubtfully ordained and doubtfully consecrated) to offer Mass and administer confirmation?  That is the direction that the current SSPX is heading in.  They accept the validity of the NO sacraments.  It is dangerous.  By the time this type of thing happens your guard will likely be down and you will be swept along.

    Offline Mabel

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #6 on: April 02, 2014, 01:05:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Quote from: soulguard
    1 To have communion with other Catholics outside the sedevacantists
    2 To fulfill a necessary condition for my own salvation
    3 Because the church has not officially condemned him yet
    4 Because I dont have the authority to decide who is pope and who is not


    1. Generally, the R&R folks refuse communion with sedevacantist Catholics.  So I think no matter what you decide on the status of Jorge Bergoglio's claim to the papacy you are certain to not be in communion with at least some faithful Catholics.

    2. It is true that you must accept a true Pope but it is also true that you must reject false popes.  But if with a clear conscience you are mistaken one way or the other you will not be damned for that alone.

    3. Canon 188.4: “Through tacit resignation, accepted by the law itself, all offices become vacant ipso facto and without any declaration if a cleric: ...n.4. Has publicly forsaken the Catholic Faith.”

    4. Dozens of Catholic bishops and hundreds and maybe thousands of priests have already publicly declared that Jorge Bergoglio's claim to the papacy is invalid.


    I've never had a R&R person refuse to pray with me , nor have I ever been denied communion, or even threatened with it by any priest.

    I've only met a handful of people who consider sedevacantists non-Catholics and a small number of sede vacantists who believe non-sedes should be denied communion. Usually those people are caught up in an over-zealous interpretation of a statement made by traditional clergy.

    Overall, I think the number of people and clergy who actually hold and put into practice such ideas is relatively small and confined.

    Offline Charlemagne

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #7 on: April 02, 2014, 01:07:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: soulguard
    @Clemens Maria

    I am convinced that Pope Francis will be remembered as an antipope, but until the judgement of a future truly Catholic pope declares him to be such, all I can do is go with the flow.


    Then all "traditionalists" must "go with the flow" and accept the NOM, 1983 Code of Canon Law, and "canonizations" as valid. If you don't have access to a True Mass, get your rear down to your local NO hootenanny and blow up some balloons. After all, the man you recognize as Pope enforces them all, and there's been no declaration that they're invalid.
    "Kindness is for fools! They [modernists] want to be treated with oil, soap, and caresses, but they ought to be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don't count or measure the blows, you strike as you can. War is not made with charity. It is a struggle, a duel." -- Pope St. Pius X


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #8 on: April 02, 2014, 01:46:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mabel
    Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Quote from: soulguard
    1 To have communion with other Catholics outside the sedevacantists
    2 To fulfill a necessary condition for my own salvation
    3 Because the church has not officially condemned him yet
    4 Because I dont have the authority to decide who is pope and who is not


    1. Generally, the R&R folks refuse communion with sedevacantist Catholics.  So I think no matter what you decide on the status of Jorge Bergoglio's claim to the papacy you are certain to not be in communion with at least some faithful Catholics.

    2. It is true that you must accept a true Pope but it is also true that you must reject false popes.  But if with a clear conscience you are mistaken one way or the other you will not be damned for that alone.

    3. Canon 188.4: “Through tacit resignation, accepted by the law itself, all offices become vacant ipso facto and without any declaration if a cleric: ...n.4. Has publicly forsaken the Catholic Faith.”

    4. Dozens of Catholic bishops and hundreds and maybe thousands of priests have already publicly declared that Jorge Bergoglio's claim to the papacy is invalid.


    I've never had a R&R person refuse to pray with me , nor have I ever been denied communion, or even threatened with it by any priest.

    I've only met a handful of people who consider sedevacantists non-Catholics and a small number of sede vacantists who believe non-sedes should be denied communion. Usually those people are caught up in an over-zealous interpretation of a statement made by traditional clergy.

    Overall, I think the number of people and clergy who actually hold and put into practice such ideas is relatively small and confined.


    Maybe I didn't speak as precisely as I ought to have.  I meant it in the sense that R&R priests and often the laymen as well refuse to work with sedevacantists.  And by that I mean that an R&R priest would not call a SV priest to cover for him in the event that the R&R priest cannot make it to a Mass or a sick call or whatever.  I think it is also true in the other direction as well.  You are right though.  I have not heard any reasonable traditional Catholic accuse another reasonable Catholic of not being Catholic based on his position with respect to the validity of the Conciliar popes.  But I have heard concerns that one could be in danger of losing the Faith and/or schism if one holds to one position or the other.

    Offline Mabel

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #9 on: April 02, 2014, 01:52:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Quote from: Mabel
    Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Quote from: soulguard
    1 To have communion with other Catholics outside the sedevacantists
    2 To fulfill a necessary condition for my own salvation
    3 Because the church has not officially condemned him yet
    4 Because I dont have the authority to decide who is pope and who is not


    1. Generally, the R&R folks refuse communion with sedevacantist Catholics.  So I think no matter what you decide on the status of Jorge Bergoglio's claim to the papacy you are certain to not be in communion with at least some faithful Catholics.

    2. It is true that you must accept a true Pope but it is also true that you must reject false popes.  But if with a clear conscience you are mistaken one way or the other you will not be damned for that alone.

    3. Canon 188.4: “Through tacit resignation, accepted by the law itself, all offices become vacant ipso facto and without any declaration if a cleric: ...n.4. Has publicly forsaken the Catholic Faith.”

    4. Dozens of Catholic bishops and hundreds and maybe thousands of priests have already publicly declared that Jorge Bergoglio's claim to the papacy is invalid.


    I've never had a R&R person refuse to pray with me , nor have I ever been denied communion, or even threatened with it by any priest.

    I've only met a handful of people who consider sedevacantists non-Catholics and a small number of sede vacantists who believe non-sedes should be denied communion. Usually those people are caught up in an over-zealous interpretation of a statement made by traditional clergy.

    Overall, I think the number of people and clergy who actually hold and put into practice such ideas is relatively small and confined.


    Maybe I didn't speak as precisely as I ought to have.  I meant it in the sense that R&R priests and often the laymen as well refuse to work with sedevacantists.  And by that I mean that an R&R priest would not call a SV priest to cover for him in the event that the R&R priest cannot make it to a Mass or a sick call or whatever.  I think it is also true in the other direction as well.  You are right though.  I have not heard any reasonable traditional Catholic accuse another reasonable Catholic of not being Catholic based on his position with respect to the validity of the Conciliar popes.  But I have heard concerns that one could be in danger of losing the Faith and/or schism if one holds to one position or the other.

    This is true. I've met more than a few R&R people who have left the SSPX but won't go to the non-hostile sede chapel in the same area, so they just stay home.

    I also know that the sede clergy do not generally get coverage outside of their own circles, either. Personally, I'd like to see an effort to bridge that gap through a general rosary crusade for a restoration open to all Catholics, but I know that no one will participate. The only thing I can do is to not be a part of the problem, and I try hard to do that.

    Offline Matto

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #10 on: April 02, 2014, 02:10:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria

    4. Dozens of Catholic bishops and hundreds and maybe thousands of priests have already publicly declared that Jorge Bergoglio's claim to the papacy is invalid.

    Are there really thousands of priests who have publicly declared that Francis is an antipope. That seems to me like something you just said with no evidence that isn't true. If it were true there would be thousands of sedevacantist priests. Are there really that many?
    In a Station of the Metro
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    Petals on a wet, black bough.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #11 on: April 02, 2014, 02:55:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: Clemens Maria

    4. Dozens of Catholic bishops and hundreds and maybe thousands of priests have already publicly declared that Jorge Bergoglio's claim to the papacy is invalid.

    Are there really thousands of priests who have publicly declared that Francis is an antipope. That seems to me like something you just said with no evidence that isn't true. If it were true there would be thousands of sedevacantist priests. Are there really that many?


    There are at least 40 Catholic bishops who have publicly declared that the Conciliar popes are antipopes.  Here is a list:

    Bishop Robert McKenna, OP
    Bishop Franco Munari
    Bishop Philippe Miguet
    Bishop M. Main
    Bishop Richard Bedingfeld
    Bishop Oliver Oravec
    Bishop Joseph Corona Santiago Gomez
    Bishop Peter Hillebrand
    Bishop John E. Hesson, OSB
    Bishop Mark A. Pivarunas, CMRI
    Bishop Javier Miranda Chairez
    Bishop Daniel Dolan
    Bishop Clarence Kelly
    Bishop Edward Peterson
    Bishop J. G. Roux
    Bishop Michael French
    Bishop Camille Nziboe Mebale
    Bishop Xavier Alain André du Rosaire
    Bishop Raphaël Cloquell
    Bishop Francis Slupski, CSSR
    Bishop Martin Davila Gandara
    Bishop Geert Jan Stuyver, IMBC
    Bishop Donald J. Sanborn
    Bishop Robert L. Neville
    Bishop Giles Butler
    Bishop Andres Morello
    Bishop Joseph J. Santay, C.S.P.V
    Bishop J. Rodriguez
    Bishop Luis Alberto Madrigal
    Bishop Paul Petko
    Bishop Robert Dymek
    Bishop W. Greene
    Bishop Bonaventure Strandt
    Bishop Emmanuel Korab
    Bishop Thomas Fouhy
    Bishop José Ramon López-Gastón
    Bishop Terence Fulham
    Bishop John Simmons
    Bishop Markus Ramolla
    Bishop Neil/Dominic? Webster

    There might be more.

    As for the number of priests, I do not know but you would be sadly mistaken if you tried to claim that there are less than 200 sedevacantist priests in the world.

    Offline Matto

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #12 on: April 02, 2014, 03:00:05 PM »
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  • Thank you for posting the list of bishops. I believe many here including myself will find it interesting.

    I actually have no idea how many sedevacantist priests there are, but I would be surprised if there were more than a thousand.
    In a Station of the Metro
    The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
    Petals on a wet, black bough.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #13 on: April 02, 2014, 03:54:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Thank you for posting the list of bishops. I believe many here including myself will find it interesting.

    I actually have no idea how many sedevacantist priests there are, but I would be surprised if there were more than a thousand.


    I don't know the actual numbers either but Wikipedia said:

    The number of sedevacantists is largely unknown, with estimates given in tens to hundreds of thousands.

    If there are as many as 100,000's of SV's then I'm not so sure over 1,000 priests is that far-fetched.  That's only 1%.
    If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema. - Council of Trent

    Offline poche

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    Francis, your pope
    « Reply #14 on: April 07, 2014, 11:05:58 AM »
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  • Shortly after Pope Benedict resigned, the cardinals met in the Sistine Chapel and closed the doors. Shortly thereafter, white smoke cane out through the chimney. One of the cardinals came to the window and said, "Habemus Papum..." Jorge came to the window and was introduced as the new pope. He says his new name is Francis. Everyone recognizes him as the pope. The news media recognizes him as the pope. Protestants, Orthodox, Muslims etc. all recognize him as the pope (they say that they disagree with him but they recognize him as the pope.) The Catholic Church recognizes him as the pope. His enemies recognize him as the pope. The press recognizes him as the pope. If all these people recognize that Francis is the pope then that is good enough for me. Francis I is the pope of the Catholic Church.  


     

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