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Author Topic: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy  (Read 38606 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
« Reply #75 on: September 02, 2015, 09:48:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Matthew
    Yes, giving the SSPX jurisdiction to hear confessions is objectively a good thing, taken in isolation.

    But we can't really take this in isolation.

    It is part of a broad program to re-integrate the SSPX into the One World Religion pantheon, of which the Conciliar Church is the seed or nexus.


    Quite possibly, but it's only dangerous or potentially harmful if there's a partner (aka an accomplice) on the other end; I'm only surprised that this wasn't preceded by a Rosary Crusade for exactly this intention.


    Again, I say, "Where have you been". There are clearly accomplices on both sides; that much should be evident to anyone objectively following the news.

    Bishop Fellay wants a deal so bad he can taste it. And yes, he's "that obvious". He thinks he's done a good job of hiding it, being stoic, or putting one over on us. He's mistaken. Just look at the whole Resistance.


    Right, but I'm not 100% sure that +Fellay was in on this particular development.  Maybe he DID just find out about it in the paper (i.e. on the interwebs).

    Offline Matthew

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #76 on: September 02, 2015, 09:52:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Another interesting aspect is that Rome doesn't entirely see the SSPX as non-Catholic.  You wouldn't grant "jurisdiction" to a bunch of people who are not Catholic simpliciter ... e.g. to the Orthodox.  There has been other language in the past which indicates the same thing, that they're "canonically irregular" and referring the rift as an "internal matter of the Church".


    Yes, as someone (you?) pointed out, he referred to the SSPX adherents as "the faithful". You don't call non-Catholic congregations by that name.

    Again, this is part of a very seductive carrot, or bait for a trap. You can see the two sides coming together. And that is not a good thing. Rome is about as far from converted as you can get.

    Say I had a bunch of worldly co-workers -- who I was normally not close to -- but at a certain point I realized that I had been hanging out with them all the time and totally accepted by them. Wouldn't that be disturbing? Especially if they hadn't changed at all. If I ever found myself in such a situation, I think I'd slap myself and go on a 1-week retreat to see what's happened to me, or at least what happened to my Catholicism.
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    Offline covet truth

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #77 on: September 02, 2015, 09:55:16 AM »
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  • Quote from: covet truth
    I think we are missing something in this discussion.  We haven't addressed what the reality of this whole mercy idea pertains to: of allowing priests to forgive sins heretofore only forgiven by a bishop or Rome.  

    In the N.O. there is very little "confession" as we know it.  They have some kind of "reconciliation" service that forgives sins as a group without confession.  Will these types of sins be included in such a service.  I haven't seen anything written that requires a true confession of sin.  This whole year of mercy idea just strikes me as a whitewash of the seriousness of sin and in particular the most serious sins that required a special absolution before now.


    Let's get away from these personal and bitter attacks and get back to the reality of how the "Year of Mercy" is going to be perceived by "Catholics" who are so far removed from any understanding of sin that they think Pope Francis/the Catholic Church has now come to their way of thinking.  This explains what I mean:

    http://www.sheknows.com/living/articles/1094539/pope-francis-comments-on-abortion-make-me-reconsider-leaving-the-church

    Offline Matthew

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #78 on: September 02, 2015, 09:57:05 AM »
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  • It doesn't matter if +Fellay was in on this particular development or not.

    When a couple is openly courting each other, you can't leave the other party out of the equation, even if the man (or woman) decides to surprise the other with a gift or other token of affection. The affection is being fostered and nurtured by both sides over many months. Yes, it's technically true that she had no idea he was going to give her that beautiful necklace.

    But can she really say she's shocked or flabbergasted? They've been expressing love for each other, spending time together, meeting each other's family, talking about marriage...

    Let's just say it's normal and expected, even if the particulars of this gesture were a surprise to one of the parties.

    Or a better example -- a woman getting a proposal from her beau.  They've been courting for months, talking marriage, but isn't she still somewhat happy/excited/surprised/etc. when he actually pops the question? She had no idea WHEN he would do it, or what the circuмstances would be. That much will be a surprise. But the proposal itself? I'm sure she saw it coming.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #79 on: September 02, 2015, 10:08:25 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    When a couple is openly courting each other, you can't leave the other party out of the equation, even if the man (or woman) decides to surprise the other with a gift or other token of affection. The affection is being fostered and nurtured by both sides over many months. Yes, it's technically true that she had no idea he was going to give her that beautiful necklace.


    This evokes strange (comical?) images of Francis and +Fellay.


    Offline stgobnait

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #80 on: September 02, 2015, 10:10:13 AM »
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  • The rest of us did, we just wondered what form it would take, now we know...

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #81 on: September 02, 2015, 10:17:02 AM »
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  • .

    There was a second thread on this same topic:

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=37881#p0

    It begins with McElwee, an NCR Vatican correspondent's article, then the Letter from Francesco I:  "To My Venerable Brother, Archbishop Rino Fisichella, President of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the New Evangelization."

    (Seems to have the air of "here's some inside personal correspondence that the world is welcome to peek into," as if it's snooping into forbidden affairs, instead of "Here is the Pope with a public message intended for dissemination to all the Faithful.")

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #82 on: September 02, 2015, 11:27:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew

    Bishop Fellay wants a deal so bad he can taste it. And yes, he's "that obvious". He thinks he's done a good job of hiding it, being stoic, or putting one over on us. He's mistaken. Just look at the whole Resistance.



    I don't think he's "mistaken."  He's clever like a fox, and he has been deliberately testing the waters by his personal appearances all over the world for the past 21 years since he was first elected SG, through which, along with his selected informants worldwide, he has monitored the transition of opinions among the Faithful and Society priests from the state they were largely in during the lifetime of ABL, to the ideal of his lifelong objective:

    Willingness to Make a Deal with Modernist Rome:                    
                 
    "What's wrong with a practical agreement?"
                       



    Bishop Fellay is not only a believer in evolution, he is a PRACTITIONER of same.

    Have you ever heard him preach about the erroneous hypothesis of evolution?

    No, you haven't, and don't bother waiting because you never will.

    We might be under the impression that he's "mistaken" because we are cognizant of his subterfuge and deliberate agenda of deceit, acting in one way and speaking in another, but he has been watching the effects of BOTH his actions and his words, even if they are at odds with each other, and he knows what he can get away with.  

    Hell, he can even expel one of his brother bishops (an act UNPRECEDENTED in the entire history of the Church for any pious fraternity!!!) and have the MAJORITY of his followers give him a free pass because they think the expelled bishop was 'anti-Semitic', a crime that to modern man is an UNFORGIVABLE sin.  But that's only because modern man in the main has no idea what 'anti-Semitism' really means.  They can't define it.

    But I can.  

    But who cares?  Modern man has been Chinese-tortured into thinking that definition, per se, is not relevant.

    Bishop Bernard Fellay has been hanging this agenda of reconciliation with Rome out for all to see ever since 1996, and perhaps a year earlier.  I know because I was in Arcadia when he came there that year to give a 3-hour conference after Mass.  I stood there and with my own 2 eyes and ears, saw him describe the attractiveness of being normalized with Rome as (quote) "...a luscious plumb."

    He wiggled his manicured fingers in the air as he described the attractiveness of this luscious plumb, in a manner that all-too-well reminded me of Cardfile Balony, I mean Cardinal Mahony, whom some are convinced is a Freemason.

    It was only later, upon reflection, that it occurred to me that this description was all too reminiscent of the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden.  

    Through the years, I have never heard him DENY that he desires to be reconciled with Rome even if Rome remains Modernist, NewAge, Novus Ordo and 'evolved' from the 'obsolete' roots from which it sprang.  

    I have not heard of him ever pronouncing an explanation for this logical discontinuity and separation from the ultimate product of ABL's lifetime of contemplation and experience, to wit, it is useless to try to have any effect on Rome so as to 'convert' her to the Faith of Catholics, and no doctrinal discussions would ever make a whit of difference, so long as Rome has not converted first;  but when Rome converts first, no doctrinal discussion would be necessary.

    What I have seen instead are numerous long-winded and boring speeches where he drones on and on and on with fuzzy feel-goodisms and ambiguous half-meaningless or poorly worded spontaneous translations from some foreign language, since his ESL leaves him at a loss in English for he doesn't THINK in English (as +W obviously does).  One might think "something was lost in the translation," but I rather conclude that "something ELSE was lost in translation," since from the start there was missing substance.

    What was missing?



    T h e     h o n e s t     t r u t h :          

    I am here to lead the Society of St. Pius X into the control of Rome          

    and it would be nice if I don't have to do it          

    with too many Faithful and/or Society priests          

    kicking and screaming.
             




    Epilogue:

    He believes he can transform Rome from the inside (hopefully back to Tradition!) because, hell, he has been able to transform the SSPX into a Modernist-Rome-friendly Society from the inside, and only a miracle worker would ever have been able to pull that off, therefore, he can do the reverse manoeuvre to Rome as well................."Watch me."


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    Offline claudel

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #83 on: September 02, 2015, 12:39:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: richard
    Do these faculties apply only for the Jubilee year? I mean, do they go "poof" after the year is up?


    First, a small correction to the form of your question. What the letter concerns is not the faculties themselves so much as the Vatican's stated recognition of those faculties' valid and licit character. Of course, the vast bulk of the Traditionalist movement takes a state of spiritual emergency as a given and thus openly or tacitly appeals to ecclesia supplet. In common with virtually everything else of an official nature issuing from a pope or a Vatican dicastery at least since the eighties, this letter fails to acknowledge even the existence of a canonical basis for Traditionalism.

    Now, with regard to the intent of your question, as this is a letter signed by the pope, it should be the presumption that its words mean what they say. So yes, there is a sell-by date to Fabulous Frank's recognition of SSPX confessional faculties. If you were, say, a Rorate Caeli moderator, you would already have set the alarm to ring in December 2016.

    Quote from: Arvinger
    As it was easy to predict, the enemies of the SSPX now have additional ammunition to argue that the SSPX priests did not have power to absolve sins up till now:

    Quote from: Fr Zuhlsdorf
    Along with this, the fact of Pope Francis’ move, together with the wording, confirms what I have been saying all along about the priests of the SSPX: they do not and have not had the faculty validly to absolve sins! The fact that this is being granted for the Year of Mercy bears out what I have been saying.


    This is a highly interesting comment, and it merits examination rather than (or, at least, along with) the sneers it's gotten in abundance. Of course, no one hereabouts is so deluded as to think that Father Zorro is a Trad or even a friend of Tradition. He shouldn't, however, be taken for an utter fool.

    First and foremost, his comments demonstrate that he can read actual words—and that is a skill that I wish lay thicker on the ground here at CathInfo. Applying the principle that "exceptio probat regulam de rebus non exceptis" (this being the full form of "the [presence of an] exception proves the [existence of a] rule [concerning matters not excepted]"), he correctly states the fundamental implication of the words in the letter: Pope Francis (as head of the institutional church, whether he admits to being its head or not) denies both the validity and liceity of the confessions that priests of the SSPX hear.

    Surely Zorro is correct in regarding this as a big deal. Before this letter was issued, the papal and Vatican line had, for forty years and more, focused solely on liceity, thus implicitly granting what was obvious to any and every Catholic: validly ordained priests administer valid sacraments, like it or not.* After all, genuinely grave absence of liceity is enough to send a witting offender to hell, so why bluff when you're holding an aces-high full house?

    The denotation of Francis's words, however, is plain: SSPX confessions are ipso facto neither valid nor licit. The first degree of connotation from the plain meaning may be paraphrased thus: being an old softie and for the sake of those deluded Catholics who haven't yet got with the program, I'm giving SSPX priests and the Society's laity a one-year indult from excommunication and damnation.

    Whether Francis means to abolish hell at his next synod is a matter for a separate thread. (Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.) It suffices that in this letter, he has raised the stakes significantly. How the other poker players and the sideline spectators (including us) respond to his move is what will be worth watching in the days and weeks to come.

    In sum, Father Zuhlsdorf may be firmly aligned with the enemy, but as he's shown here that he understands what words mean and imply, we should thank him and—perhaps just this once—learn from him.
    _________________________

    * Benedict's use of the terms "legitimate" and "illegitimate" was and remains bizarre and malapropos. That these terms have since been widely and incorrectly employed here and elsewhere has pointlessly larded a new layer of confusion onto minds that would be better served by a good sandblasting.

    Offline trento

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #84 on: September 02, 2015, 12:43:01 PM »
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  • SSPX regulars won't bother much about this because they will still go to SSPX priests for confession before and after the "Year of Mercy" regardless. This announcement by Pope Francis, I reckon, will be more food for thought for those SSPX-hating indult/motu proprio folks. Those who fear going to SSPX priests for confession usually belongs to this group. Will they start flocking to Society chapels? I doubt so, but we shall see.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #85 on: September 02, 2015, 12:59:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: claudel


    Whether Francis means to abolish hell at his next synod is a matter for a separate thread. (Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.)


    I didn't know abolishing Hell was even on the chopping block.  We'll have to wait and see what comes out of the October synod first.  Hell may eventually be abolished in the novus ordo through mere omission.  Just stop mentioning it.  That's been going on for decades.    

    What Claudel said in his post has introduced a different light on Pope Francis' actions.  By issuing this statement, is Pope Francis actually taking the offensive against the SSPX and Tradition?  In the first years of his pontificate, he usually just sneeringly referred to people "behind the times" but now has stated that for his year of mercy, he will allow the SSPX priests to validly absolve sins.  This has an expiration date because the year of mercy has an expiration date.  

    What next?

    What will follow?

    Who here at CathInfo was surprised by Pope Francis' actions?


    Offline songbird

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #86 on: September 02, 2015, 01:07:17 PM »
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  • Hm?  Isn't forgiveness of sin, penance of the catholics?  Are all abortionists, catholic?  In our area, we have a Jew for an abortionist.  They have no sorrow, there for they get nothing.

    Does this mean the Pope is also cleansed of his sins of supporting abortion in all dioceses that take on Catholic Charities?  Hm?  Never a mention in the media for the atrocities of the new Order supporting abortion.  Life site news could do better.
    Let's accuse the ones who refer and gather the money.  

    Offline Stubborn

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #87 on: September 02, 2015, 01:11:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: trento
    SSPX regulars won't bother much about this because they will still go to SSPX priests for confession before and after the "Year of Mercy" regardless. This announcement by Pope Francis, I reckon, will be more food for thought for those SSPX-hating indult/motu proprio folks. Those who fear going to SSPX priests for confession usually belongs to this group. Will they start flocking to Society chapels? I doubt so, but we shall see.


    It only takes a very few to stir the pot and cause dissension.

    I remember hearing in one of his talks, Fr. John O'Connor said that typically, it only takes 2% of any group to stir the pot to turn the whole group into a mob. Perhaps that is one of the ulterior motives of this announcement - "Here SSPX, you need some NOers to mix in and start protesting having the priest's back to the people, and no vernacular and homo rights or no CITH or...."

    Time will tell I guess.



     


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #88 on: September 02, 2015, 01:16:15 PM »
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  • I disagree with your analysis, claudel.  You talk about "denotation" and the ability to read "actual words".  But there are NO "actual words" which explicitly state:  "SSPX's Confessions are not currently valid."  One can argue that it's strongly implied, but it's not denoted in any actual words.

    And it's not true that the Vatican had heretofore granted the validity of all the Sacraments administered by SSPX priests while focusing on liceity.  In the case of those Sacraments that require jurisdiction, liceity and validity are closely related.

    Nor did Francis merely "recognize" the faculties; he explicitly granted them.


    Offline claudel

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #89 on: September 02, 2015, 01:24:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    I disagree with your analysis, claudel.


    Good for you.