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Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: obediens on September 01, 2015, 06:39:54 AM

Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: obediens on September 01, 2015, 06:39:54 AM
Have at it, folks.  :popcorn:

"A final consideration concerns those faithful who for various reasons choose to attend churches officiated by priests of the Fraternity of St Pius X. This Jubilee Year of Mercy excludes no one. From various quarters, several Brother Bishops have told me of their good faith and sacramental practice, combined however with an uneasy situation from the pastoral standpoint. I trust that in the near future solutions may be found to recover full communion with the priests and superiors of the Fraternity. In the meantime, motivated by the need to respond to the good of these faithful, through my own disposition, I establish that those who during the Holy Year of Mercy approach these priests of the Fraternity of St Pius X to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation shall validly and licitly receive the absolution of their sins."

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/09/urgent-pope-francis-grants-absolution.html
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Croix de Fer on September 01, 2015, 06:47:34 AM
SSPX has always been valid and licit because they've always remained Catholic. The Conciliar church is the one who engages in illicit acts such as the novus ordo sacrilege. Heretics can't grant permission to real Catholics.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Croix de Fer on September 01, 2015, 06:51:06 AM
A cuckoo "granting" permission to a nightingale.  :laugh1:
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Arvinger on September 01, 2015, 07:07:49 AM
He "grants" it now and for the "Holy Year of Mercy", which implies that the SSPX priests did not have this power before. By the way, what about the SSPX marriages now, according to the Vatican?
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: clare on September 01, 2015, 07:46:27 AM
Quote
... This Jubilee Year of Mercy excludes no one....

So, he's granting the resistance faculties too!
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: richard on September 01, 2015, 07:53:17 AM
Do these faculties apply only for the Jubilee year,I mean do they go "poof" after the year is up?
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2015, 07:56:34 AM
Quote from: Arvinger
He "grants" it now and for the "Holy Year of Mercy", which implies that the SSPX priests did not have this power before. By the way, what about the SSPX marriages now, according to the Vatican?


Technically, and from their standpoint, the SSPX did not have this power before, since valid Confessions require jurisdiction except in danger of death.  SSPX simply argues that this supplied jurisdiction applies because of the state of emergency, which obviously Francis doesn't believe exists.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2015, 07:57:36 AM
Quote from: richard
Do these faculties apply only for the Jubilee year,I mean do they go "poof" after the year is up?


I suspect that there will be a reconciliation or making this more permanent afterwards.  Way things work in Rome, things granted rarely get rescinded.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Arvinger on September 01, 2015, 07:59:10 AM
As it was easy to predict, the enemies of the SSPX now have additional ammunition to argue that the SSPX priests did not have power to absolve sins up till now:

Quote from: Fr Zuhlsdorf
Along with this, the fact of Pope Francis’ move, together with the wording, confirms what I have been saying all along about the priests of the SSPX: they do not and have not had the faculty validly to absolve sins!  The fact that this is being granted for the Year of Mercy bears out what I have been saying.

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2015/09/pope-francis-for-year-of-mercy-grants-that-sspx-priests-can-validly-absolve/
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2015, 08:01:26 AM
Quote from: clare
Quote
... This Jubilee Year of Mercy excludes no one....

So, he's granting the resistance faculties too!


Hmmm.  Interesting.  One could perhaps read that as implied, though he explicitly only applied it to the SSPX.  So I believe this goes into effect beginning on December 8th, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2015, 08:02:41 AM
Quote from: Arvinger
As it was easy to predict, the enemies of the SSPX now have additional ammunition to argue that the SSPX priests did not have power to absolve sins up till now:

Quote from: Fr Zuhlsdorf
Along with this, the fact of Pope Francis’ move, together with the wording, confirms what I have been saying all along about the priests of the SSPX: they do not and have not had the faculty validly to absolve sins!  The fact that this is being granted for the Year of Mercy bears out what I have been saying.

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2015/09/pope-francis-for-year-of-mercy-grants-that-sspx-priests-can-validly-absolve/


That's just complete idiocy.  Everybody KNOWS that the SSPX never had actual jurisdiction to hear Confessions; he's acting as if this is some vindication of his brilliance (and his ego).  What's under dispute is whether the state of emergency in the Church supplies jurisdiction.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2015, 08:07:18 AM
Let's not overlook the fact that Francis hints that a full reconciliation might be imminent.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2015, 08:28:21 AM
One might point out to Father Z that Francis referred to the laity who attend SSPX chapels as "the faithful", i.e. as Catholics.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2015, 08:29:30 AM
Quote from: ascent
SSPX has always been valid and licit because they've always remained Catholic.


That principle isn't correct.  Even before Vatican II it wasn't enough to be "Catholic" in order to have jurisdiction to forgive sins.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Graham on September 01, 2015, 09:17:06 AM
This is absurd and grossly insulting. I expect the SSPX response, should they decide to make one, will be a lukewarm defense of the state of necessity and the validity and liceity of their confessions, coupled with an admonition that we must be grateful for this anyway and the supposedly good intentions it shows. But I won't be grateful for falsehoods and insults from arrogant modernists.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Matthew on September 01, 2015, 09:21:23 AM
Sure seems like we might be seeing a deal in the near future.

Anyone paying ANY KIND OF attention to the SSPX/Rome situation should know that the effort (for a reconciliation/practical deal) isn't dead. Not by a long shot.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: JPM on September 01, 2015, 09:58:59 AM
Quote from: Matthew
Sure seems like we might be seeing a deal in the near future.

Anyone paying ANY KIND OF attention to the SSPX/Rome situation should know that the effort (for a reconciliation/practical deal) isn't dead. Not by a long shot.


"I trust that in the near future solutions may be found to recover full communion with the priests and superiors of the Fraternity."

It's going to happen. If I had to bet I would wager regularization would materialize much like this-- that the SSPX is simply accepted, in the words of Bishop Schneider, "as they are" without preconditions.
 
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2015, 10:43:30 AM
Quote from: JPM
Quote from: Matthew
Sure seems like we might be seeing a deal in the near future.

Anyone paying ANY KIND OF attention to the SSPX/Rome situation should know that the effort (for a reconciliation/practical deal) isn't dead. Not by a long shot.


"I trust that in the near future solutions may be found to recover full communion with the priests and superiors of the Fraternity."

It's going to happen. If I had to bet I would wager regularization would materialize much like this-- that the SSPX is simply accepted, in the words of Bishop Schneider, "as they are" without preconditions.
 


I think that there will be a high-level token preamble that any Catholic could sign.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: JPM on September 01, 2015, 11:20:44 AM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: JPM
Quote from: Matthew
Sure seems like we might be seeing a deal in the near future.

Anyone paying ANY KIND OF attention to the SSPX/Rome situation should know that the effort (for a reconciliation/practical deal) isn't dead. Not by a long shot.


"I trust that in the near future solutions may be found to recover full communion with the priests and superiors of the Fraternity."

It's going to happen. If I had to bet I would wager regularization would materialize much like this-- that the SSPX is simply accepted, in the words of Bishop Schneider, "as they are" without preconditions.
 


I think that there will be a high-level token preamble that any Catholic could sign.


Agreed.  "As we are" as in "We are Catholic".  What happens then? Who knows.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: TKGS on September 01, 2015, 11:29:26 AM
Quote from: Matthew
Sure seems like we might be seeing a deal in the near future.

Anyone paying ANY KIND OF attention to the SSPX/Rome situation should know that the effort (for a reconciliation/practical deal) isn't dead. Not by a long shot.


A full reconciliation granted during the "Year of Mercy" as an "act of mercy", no doubt?
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Graham on September 01, 2015, 11:45:47 AM
Quote
The Society of St. Pius X learned, through the press, of the provisions taken by Pope Francis on the occasion of the upcoming Holy Year. In the last paragraph of his letter addressed September 1, 2015, to Archbishop Rino Fisichella, president of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the New Evangelization, the Holy Father writes:

«I establish that those who during the Holy Year of Mercy approach these priests of the Society of St Pius X to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation shall validly and licitly receive the absolution of their sins.»

The Society of St. Pius X expresses its gratitude to the Sovereign Pontiff for this fatherly gesture. In the ministry of the sacrament of penance, we have always relied, with all certainty, on the extrdaordinary jurisdiction conferred by the Normae generales of the Code of Canon Law. On the occasion of this Holy Year, Pope Francis wants all the faithful who wish to confess to the priests of the Society of St. Pius X to be able to do so without being worried.

During this year of conversion, the priests of the Society of St. Pius X will have at heart to exercise with renewed generosity their ministry in the confessional, following the example of tireless dedication which the holy Curé of Ars gave to all priests.

Menzingen,
September 1, 2015


http://www.dici.org/en/news/communique-of-the-general-house-of-the-society-of-st-pius-x-on-the-letter-of-pope-francis-at-the-approach-of-the-holy-year-september-1-2015/
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: richard on September 01, 2015, 12:15:36 PM
Quote from: Graham
Quote
The Society of St. Pius X learned, through the press, of the provisions taken by Pope Francis on the occasion of the upcoming Holy Year. In the last paragraph of his letter addressed September 1, 2015, to Archbishop Rino Fisichella, president of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the New Evangelization, the Holy Father writes:

«I establish that those who during the Holy Year of Mercy approach these priests of the Society of St Pius X to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation shall validly and licitly receive the absolution of their sins.»

The Society of St. Pius X expresses its gratitude to the Sovereign Pontiff for this fatherly gesture. In the ministry of the sacrament of penance, we have always relied, with all certainty, on the extrdaordinary jurisdiction conferred by the Normae generales of the Code of Canon Law. On the occasion of this Holy Year, Pope Francis wants all the faithful who wish to confess to the priests of the Society of St. Pius X to be able to do so without being worried.

During this year of conversion, the priests of the Society of St. Pius X will have at heart to exercise with renewed generosity their ministry in the confessional, following the example of tireless dedication which the holy Curé of Ars gave to all priests.

Menzingen,
September 1, 2015


http://www.dici.org/en/news/communique-of-the-general-house-of-the-society-of-st-pius-x-on-the-letter-of-pope-francis-at-the-approach-of-the-holy-year-september-1-2015/


Learned through the press my eye! We now Know what the 'secret" meeting was about.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: covet truth on September 01, 2015, 12:21:31 PM
I am reminded of this psalm in the Offertory of the Mass:

"Take not away my soul, O God, with the wicked, nor my life with men of blood.
In whose hands are iniquities; their right hand is filled with gifts."
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: JPM on September 01, 2015, 12:24:56 PM
Quote from: richard
Learned through the press my eye! We now Know what the 'secret" meeting was about.


I completely believe it came as a surprise as evidenced by the below being posted as part of a news story this morning on the SSPX.org site.

"So while those who remain faithful to the Church’s immutable teachings on matrimony and the family—let alone the natural and social order—are devoid of the pope’s public support, those who speak of an impossible “other way” receive his papal honors and blessings."

I suspect if they knew of the impending pope's "public support" for SSPX hearing confessions, then the SSPX would have held off on the article taking the Pope to task.

That is why I wrote earlier that my guess is the Pope, as Bishop Schneider suggested, will accept the SSPX "as they are" with no preconditions. It's just as likely that the Pope has already decided to do that.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: covet truth on September 01, 2015, 12:34:54 PM
Quote
The Society of St. Pius X expresses its gratitude to the Sovereign Pontiff for this fatherly gesture.


How can the SSPX be "grateful" for this "fatherly gesture" when up to Dec. 8th none of their confessions for forty years have been considered "valid" by Rome?  I guess the day after the mercy year ends it will be back to "invalid"?  What a joke this is   and yet they are "grateful".  Rome is calling the shots and the SSPX dances to their tune.  It's over.  
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2015, 12:50:14 PM
I really cannot understand the bitterness here against Francis for this.  No doubt he is just trying to be kind.  I think we need to put aside the ranting and raving already.  As far as we know, he's done this as a unilateral gesture with no strings attached.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: ihsv on September 01, 2015, 12:53:22 PM
They were grateful for the lifting of the non-excommunications, too.  

+Fellay is given "jurisdiction" to discipline certain priests, now they're given faculties to hear confession.  I would be surprised if, before the end of the year, an agreement or arrangement has not been publicly announced.  If not by the end of the calendar year, than certainly by the end of the "year of mercy".

I have accordistas in my family, and I can tell you they will eat this up for lunch and demand dessert.   This is a colossal bone being tossed their way and they, like hungry dogs, will gobble it up with no questions asked.  

Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: JPM on September 01, 2015, 12:53:40 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus
I really cannot understand the bitterness here against Francis for this.  No doubt he is just trying to be kind.  I think we need to put aside the ranting and raving already.  As far as we know, he's done this as a unilateral gesture with no strings attached.


+1
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Matthew on September 01, 2015, 12:56:12 PM
Quote from: ihsv
They were grateful for the lifting of the non-excommunications, too.  

+Fellay is given "jurisdiction" to discipline certain priests, now they're given faculties to hear confession.  I would be surprised if, before the end of the year, an agreement or arrangement has not been publicly announced.  If not by the end of the calendar year, than certainly by the end of the "year of mercy".

I have accordistas in my family, and I can tell you they will eat this up for lunch and demand dessert.   This is a colossal bone being tossed their way and they, like hungry dogs, will gobble it up with no questions asked.  



Don't forget the SSPX in Argentina being recognized as Catholic by Rome earlier this year.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: ihsv on September 01, 2015, 12:56:39 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus
I really cannot understand the bitterness here against Francis for this.  No doubt he is just trying to be kind.  I think we need to put aside the ranting and raving already.  As far as we know, he's done this as a unilateral gesture with no strings attached.


It's not about bitterness against Francis for this particular act.  The problem is that it's another step toward a practical agreement, toward publicly becoming part of the new religion.  It will have the effect of making the average pew-sitting mouth breather in the SSPX be more in favor of "making a deal."
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Matthew on September 01, 2015, 12:56:58 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus
I really cannot understand the bitterness here against Francis for this.  No doubt he is just trying to be kind.  I think we need to put aside the ranting and raving already.  As far as we know, he's done this as a unilateral gesture with no strings attached.


You have got to be joking.

I assume this was sarcastic or tongue-in-cheek...

What are we supposed to do, forget all the anti-Catholic things and wanton destruction Francis has done in a short span of 2 years, and just assume the best?

As Catholics, we are not expected to play the fool or be naive. It's obvious what side "there is no Catholic God" Francis is on.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 01, 2015, 12:59:46 PM
Quote from: covet truth
Quote
The Society of St. Pius X expresses its gratitude to the Sovereign Pontiff for this fatherly gesture.


How can the SSPX be "grateful" for this "fatherly gesture" when up to Dec. 8th none of their confessions for forty years have been considered "valid" by Rome?  I guess the day after the mercy year ends it will be back to "invalid"?  What a joke this is   and yet they are "grateful".  Rome is calling the shots and the SSPX dances to their tune.  It's over.  


I completely agree.  
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 01, 2015, 01:02:32 PM
Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Ladislaus
I really cannot understand the bitterness here against Francis for this.  No doubt he is just trying to be kind.  I think we need to put aside the ranting and raving already.  As far as we know, he's done this as a unilateral gesture with no strings attached.


You have got to be joking.

I assume this was sarcastic or tongue-in-cheek...

What are we supposed to do, forget all the anti-Catholic things and wanton destruction Francis has done in a short span of 2 years, and just assume the best?

As Catholics, we are not expected to play the fool or be naive. It's obvious what side "there is no Catholic God" Francis is on.


I'm hoping it was sarcastic as well.  Soon the SSPX will be welcomed into indult-hood.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: covet truth on September 01, 2015, 01:03:23 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus
I really cannot understand the bitterness here against Francis for this.  No doubt he is just trying to be kind.  I think we need to put aside the ranting and raving already.  As far as we know, he's done this as a unilateral gesture with no strings attached.


Uh huh, just as he is "kind" to practicing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, lesbians, alternative "families", divorced and remarried Catholics who want to still receive the Eucharist, and all other ecuмenical gestures to protestants without their conversion. There is just no end to his "kindness".  Do we confess Our Lord Jesus Christ and his commandments or do we not?  
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: JPM on September 01, 2015, 01:10:23 PM
Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Ladislaus
I really cannot understand the bitterness here against Francis for this.  No doubt he is just trying to be kind.  I think we need to put aside the ranting and raving already.  As far as we know, he's done this as a unilateral gesture with no strings attached.


What are we supposed to do, forget all the anti-Catholic things and wanton destruction Francis has done in a short span of 2 years, and just assume the best?


Well, yes, sort of.  St. Thomas Aquinas: "Don't concentrate on the person of the speaker, but treasure up in your mind anything profitable he may happen to say."

The Pope did a solid.  And, tomorrow there might be something which merits criticism.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: ihsv on September 01, 2015, 01:12:00 PM
This is the heart of the problem.  

Quote
"I trust that in the near future solutions may be found to recover full communion with the priests and superiors of the Fraternity"


It's called a BRIBE.  "Because I'm so kind, I'll give you this, and I trust that you'll..."
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: stgobnait on September 01, 2015, 01:19:59 PM
Why didn't Menz tell the Sovereign Pontiff what they told me twenty years ago, 'we have supplied jurisdiction; whilest at the same time thanking him for the thought, but assure him its not necessary...
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 01, 2015, 01:22:09 PM
Quote from: stgobnait
Why didn't Menz tell the Sovereign Pontiff what they told me twenty years ago, 'we have supplied jurisdiction; whilest at the same time thanking him for the thought, but assure him its not necessary...


Because that might ruin some chances down the road.....
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2015, 01:27:30 PM
Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Ladislaus
I really cannot understand the bitterness here against Francis for this.  No doubt he is just trying to be kind.  I think we need to put aside the ranting and raving already.  As far as we know, he's done this as a unilateral gesture with no strings attached.


You have got to be joking.

I assume this was sarcastic or tongue-in-cheek...

What are we supposed to do, forget all the anti-Catholic things and wanton destruction Francis has done in a short span of 2 years, and just assume the best?

As Catholics, we are not expected to play the fool or be naive. It's obvious what side "there is no Catholic God" Francis is on.


No, I'm dead serious.  Sure we could suspect that there might be an ulterior motive, that some deal has been struck in the smoke-filled back rooms, with the SSPX.  Other than that, this sounds a lot like that proposition condemned by the Church that all actions outside the Church are bad and sinful.  You make it sound like Francis is just pure evil and the devil incarnate and cannot be well-intentioned.  I like the tone of the DICI response; it expresses gratitude while at the same time respectfully upholding the SSPX contention that they have operated under supplied jurisdiction all these years.

One can be firm and principled without being bitter and angry.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2015, 01:30:54 PM
Quote from: DICI
The Society of St. Pius X learned, through the press, of the provisions taken by Pope Francis on the occasion of the upcoming Holy Year. In the last paragraph of his letter addressed September 1, 2015, to Archbishop Rino Fisichella, president of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the New Evangelization, the Holy Father writes:

«I establish that those who during the Holy Year of Mercy approach these priests of the Society of St Pius X to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation shall validly and licitly receive the absolution of their sins.»

The Society of St. Pius X expresses its gratitude to the Sovereign Pontiff for this fatherly gesture. In the ministry of the sacrament of penance, we have always relied, with all certainty, on the extrdaordinary jurisdiction conferred by the Normae generales of the Code of Canon Law. On the occasion of this Holy Year, Pope Francis wants all the faithful who wish to confess to the priests of the Society of St. Pius X to be able to do so without being worried.

During this year of conversion, the priests of the Society of St. Pius X will have at heart to exercise with renewed generosity their ministry in the confessional, following the example of tireless dedication which the holy Curé of Ars gave to all priests.

Menzingen,
September 1, 2015


I think that this is a great response.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 01, 2015, 01:34:47 PM
Quote from: stgobnait
Why didn't Menz tell the Sovereign Pontiff what they told me twenty years ago, 'we have supplied jurisdiction; whilest at the same time thanking him for the thought, but assure him its not necessary...


Did you even READ the response?  That's precisely what they did.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Matthew on September 01, 2015, 01:44:55 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Ladislaus
I really cannot understand the bitterness here against Francis for this.  No doubt he is just trying to be kind.  I think we need to put aside the ranting and raving already.  As far as we know, he's done this as a unilateral gesture with no strings attached.


You have got to be joking.

I assume this was sarcastic or tongue-in-cheek...

What are we supposed to do, forget all the anti-Catholic things and wanton destruction Francis has done in a short span of 2 years, and just assume the best?

As Catholics, we are not expected to play the fool or be naive. It's obvious what side "there is no Catholic God" Francis is on.


No, I'm dead serious.  Sure we could suspect that there might be an ulterior motive, that some deal has been struck in the smoke-filled back rooms, with the SSPX.  Other than that, this sounds a lot like that proposition condemned by the Church that all actions outside the Church are bad and sinful.  You make it sound like Francis is just pure evil and the devil incarnate and cannot be well-intentioned.  I like the tone of the DICI response; it expresses gratitude while at the same time respectfully upholding the SSPX contention that they have operated under supplied jurisdiction all these years.

One can be firm and principled without being bitter and angry.


How about just being calm and realistic?

If Monsanto offers to give me free seeds, I'm going to assume they're doctored, calculated to benefit the Monsanto corporation in some way, and are not for the good of humanity, since Monsanto (to date) has done nothing for the good of humanity.

It's not bitter, angry, or any kind of emotion -- it's just logic and common sense.

As Catholics, we're not expected to be stupid. At least I hope we're not, because I refuse to be.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: stgobnait on September 01, 2015, 01:52:48 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: DICI
The Society of St. Pius X learned, through the press, of the provisions taken by Pope Francis on the occasion of the upcoming Holy Year. In the last paragraph of his letter addressed September 1, 2015, to Archbishop Rino Fisichella, president of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the New Evangelization, the Holy Father writes:

«I establish that those who during the Holy Year of Mercy approach these priests of the Society of St Pius X to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation shall validly and licitly receive the absolution of their sins.»

The Society of St. Pius X expresses its gratitude to the Sovereign Pontiff for this fatherly gesture. In the ministry of the sacrament of penance, we have always relied, with all certainty, on the extrdaordinary jurisdiction conferred by the Normae generales of the Code of Canon Law. On the occasion of this Holy Year, Pope Francis wants all the faithful who wish to confess to the priests of the Society of St. Pius X to be able to do so without being worried.

During this year of conversion, the priests of the Society of St. Pius X will have at heart to exercise with renewed generosity their ministry in the confessional, following the example of tireless dedication which the holy Curé of Ars gave to all priests.

Menzingen,
September 1, 2015


I think that this is a great response.
                                         Good for you.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Croixalist on September 01, 2015, 02:03:25 PM
The optimist in me wants to say, "Wow, another breakthrough for the TLM!"

The pessimist (realist?) in me wants to say, "Hey look, they're reeling in the society for the final push to force the New Mass and the Latin Mass to be celebrated as equals... and later seeing TLM barred from the chapels with the NO in its place..."

Another thing that disturbs me is that the Society was not told ahead of the announcement. Of course, they could always be masking their knowledge of it anyway.

On one hand we could be witnessing a powerful moment of grace sent from Heaven while on the other hand this could be a stratagem straight from Hell. Perhaps the Devil's plans will work against him in the long run, who knows? All we have right now is the Mass of all time while we wait for the eclipse to pass us over.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: MaterDominici on September 01, 2015, 02:05:18 PM
This is a quote from a USA Today story about the Pope allowing priests to absolve abortions during the Year of Mercy:

Quote
Thavis said he would not be surprised if the edict stays in effect beyond the Holy Year. "If this is meant to demonstrate the church's mercy, it doesn't make much sense that it would have an expiration date," he said.


He, too, thinks that whatever the Pope is granting now will afterwards be the norm.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: MaterDominici on September 01, 2015, 02:16:01 PM
Quote from: covet truth
Quote from: Ladislaus
I really cannot understand the bitterness here against Francis for this.  No doubt he is just trying to be kind.  I think we need to put aside the ranting and raving already.  As far as we know, he's done this as a unilateral gesture with no strings attached.


Uh huh, just as he is "kind" to practicing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, lesbians, alternative "families", divorced and remarried Catholics who want to still receive the Eucharist, and all other ecuмenical gestures to protestants without their conversion. There is just no end to his "kindness".  Do we confess Our Lord Jesus Christ and his commandments or do we not?  


THIS^, is the "best" light I can see this in. Sure, it might be a nice gesture, but it's given in the same manner he's extending kindness to all sorts of sinful behavior.

Really, though, I'm more inclined to think this is just the latest tactical move in the series of steps taken to completely destroy the Catholic Church, whether the Pope himself knows it or not.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: A Sorry Man on September 01, 2015, 03:15:31 PM
Please try not to forget:

The Catholic Church is under attack and under the control of the Modernists.

A Modernist can be perceived to do bad things and a Modernist can be  perceived to do good things. That's what Modernism is - a mess, a sewer.

A Modernist could very well say that SSPX priests may absolve sins validly for a certain time period, while at the same time saying that a dangerous Heretic should get a Catholic burial.

Indeed, a Modernist could, when in the company of the truly evil Talmidim, hide the Crucifix that he wears around his neck, and at the same time affirm that Jesus is the Bread of Life.

My point - if these instances should arise, don't pick and choose the good while ignoring the bad - no, the method is to never forget you are dealing with a Modernist.


I'm curious - how many here on Cathinfo think that Pope Francis would have 'granted' this to the SSPX were it still headed by the great Archbishop who once stated that Rome had lost the Faith and was being run by a bunch of Anti-Christs?

Wow, there was a time when the SSPX actually used that type of language.....

God Bless






Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: covet truth on September 01, 2015, 04:03:58 PM
Quote from: A Sorry Man


I'm curious - how many here on Cathinfo think that Pope Francis would have 'granted' this to the SSPX were it still headed by the great Archbishop who once stated that Rome had lost the Faith and was being run by a bunch of Anti-Christs?

Wow, there was a time when the SSPX actually used that type of language...


I will add to that thought.  How many think this would have been granted to the SSPX before the 2012 Doctrinal Declaration; before the expulsion of Bishop Williamson; before the machinations of G.R.E.C.; before the apostolic visitations?  No, those things have paved the way for this to happen.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: covet truth on September 01, 2015, 04:54:58 PM
I think we are missing something in this discussion.  We haven't addressed what the reality of this whole mercy idea pertains to: of allowing priests to forgive sins heretofore only forgiven by a bishop or Rome.  

All priests including the SSPX will now be able to forgive the sin of abortion.  What other sins will be forgiven that couldn't be forgiven before by a priest?  Is this something to be "grateful" for the permission to do?  How is it that priests couldn't forgive these sins in the past?  

In the N.O. there is very little "confession" as we know it.  They have some kind of "reconciliation" service that forgives sins as a group without confession.  Will these types of sins be included in such a service.  I haven't seen anything written that requires a true confession of sin.  This whole year of mercy idea just strikes me as a whitewash of the seriousness of sin and in particular the most serious sins that required a special absolution before now.  


Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Miseremini on September 01, 2015, 05:27:15 PM
I'm not up on stuff with the Jєωs but isn't this year also their 7th year where they are supposed to forgive debt etc?
Does this make it look like Rome is trying to be more Jєωιѕн?
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Graham on September 01, 2015, 06:59:35 PM
This is the "unilateral recognition" foreseen earlier this year by Bp. Williamson and others. The twist is that it is proceeding more deviously than anyone imagined.

And - if it needs to be said - it isn't actually unilateral, since they've been regularly meeting the whole time.

People, now is the time to jump ship, if you've held on this long. They're going over to the Modernists and they're doing it in ways more underhanded than you suspect.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Graham on September 01, 2015, 07:18:16 PM
Your faith is not safe with them.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: A Sorry Man on September 01, 2015, 07:20:59 PM
Covet Truth - you are right. This path has been prepared. I wonder how many within the SSPX pews will think that this announcement is a good thing?

Graham - I wonder how many within the SSPX pews will perceive what you correctly describe as a sinking ship?


Bishop Fellay - this is it. You are about to be unmasked to the blindest of the blind within the SSPX. The moment of full public betrayal must be near. We wish to ask one thing of you, before it's too late:

STAND UP TO THE MODERNISTS IN ROME AND TELL THEM TO CONVERT TO THE ONE, TRUE FATIH. TELL THEM THAT FAITHFUL CATHOLICS HAVE NO NEED OF ANY 'GRANTS' FROM ANY MODERNIST. TELL THEM THAT YOU AND THE SSPX ARE CATHOLIC AND THAT THEY, THE MODERNISTS, ARE NOT.

OR ELSE JUST GET ON WITH IT, JOIN THEM IN THEIR MODERNIST NIGHTMARE, AND LEAVE THE REST OF US ALONE.

God Bless.


Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Graham on September 01, 2015, 07:35:06 PM
Bravo!
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Maria Auxiliadora on September 01, 2015, 08:36:09 PM
Quote from: MaterDominici
This is a quote from a USA Today story about the Pope allowing priests to absolve abortions during the Year of Mercy:

Quote
Thavis said he would not be surprised if the edict stays in effect beyond the Holy Year. "If this is meant to demonstrate the church's mercy, it doesn't make much sense that it would have an expiration date," he said.


He, too, thinks that whatever the Pope is granting now will afterwards be the norm.


Bingo! Thank you for the quote. The only "mercy" on Francis' part is allowing +Fellay to secretly bring the unsuspecting sheep to the slaughter . They had to sign the 1989 PF in Argentina because that is non-negotiable, period! Since +Fellay does not have the honesty to admit it and the pope wants this agreement “con tenacia e pazienza” – “with tenacity and patience”, they are giving him the key to the secret path. The secret (doctrinal preamble) meeting must have been very successful for +Fellay. The district superiors must have signed it.

Quote from: E.C. 424
Readers, wait for it, take in advance a hint –
When the agreement comes, read the fine print!
... Brilliant these will be.

Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: AJNC on September 02, 2015, 01:07:34 AM
Quote from: Marie Auxiliadora
Quote from: MaterDominici
This is a quote from a USA Today story about the Pope allowing priests to absolve abortions during the Year of Mercy:

Quote
Thavis said he would not be surprised if the edict stays in effect beyond the Holy Year. "If this is meant to demonstrate the church's mercy, it doesn't make much sense that it would have an expiration date," he said.


He, too, thinks that whatever the Pope is granting now will afterwards be the norm.


Bingo! Thank you for the quote. The only "mercy" on Francis' part is allowing +Fellay to secretly bring the unsuspecting sheep to the slaughter . They had to sign the 1989 PF in Argentina because that is non-negotiable, period! Since +Fellay does not have the honesty to admit it and the pope wants this agreement “con tenacia e pazienza” – “with tenacity and patience”, they are giving him the key to the secret path. The secret (doctrinal preamble) meeting must have been very successful for +Fellay. The district superiors must have signed it.

Quote from: E.C. 424
Readers, wait for it, take in advance a hint –
When the agreement comes, read the fine print!
... Brilliant these will be.



Menzingen spends most of its time sucking up to the Conciliar Church, but when the latter utters something favorable to it. Menzingen feigns surprise and issues a statement pretending to be both Traditional and thankful to the Modernists.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Stubborn on September 02, 2015, 04:13:52 AM
Quote from: Ladislaus
I really cannot understand the bitterness here against Francis for this.  No doubt he is just trying to be kind.  I think we need to put aside the ranting and raving already.  As far as we know, he's done this as a unilateral gesture with no strings attached.



After all this time, it would be beyond foolish not to presume an ulterior motive - even if there is none. But until proven otherwise, there is.


   
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Croix de Fer on September 02, 2015, 06:20:01 AM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: ascent
SSPX has always been valid and licit because they've always remained Catholic.


That principle isn't correct.  Even before Vatican II it wasn't enough to be "Catholic" in order to have jurisdiction to forgive sins.


 :facepalm:

Yet, it was YOU who was enrolled at an SSPX seminary that taught the reality of supplied jurisdiction in this Crisis. Do you want to explain this contradiction?

When the Lord Jesus Christ returns again as the Church is reduced to a remnant (Luke 18:8), do you think there is going to be ordinary jurisdiction? No. The remnant of true Catholics will receive the Sacraments through supplied jurisdiction of valid clergy.

Innately, you know this to be true, yet you insist on arguing every little thing to most people here.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Wessex on September 02, 2015, 06:45:36 AM
Nothing about modern Rome should be taken seriously or even noted. If it is, it means a weakening of one's resolve to stay clear.

Since sin as we know it has been abolished on a personal basis and has been replaced by a collective superficial expression of reconciliation among the enamoured throng, we have to conclude that there is one law for those that insist on the correct form of the old order and another that sanctions a reasonable amount of hedonism compatible with the new liberal order. The two standards are so out of kilter that we are in the realm of doing things for the sake of any agreement that muddies further an already stagnant pool of human behaviour.

If traditionalists continue to indulge in playing this game within such a world of turmoil they will get sucked into the conciliar mire that feeds of its own seductive power to debase the faith.  
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: JPaul on September 02, 2015, 07:22:31 AM
Wessex,
Quote
Nothing about modern Rome should be taken seriously or even noted. If it is, it means a weakening of one's resolve to stay clear.


Well spoken!  As Father Cyprian said in the recently posted sermon, " this conciliar church has no authority over us."

The SSPX has carried on this  dance of gestures and statements since the beginning, and it has conditioned its adherents to hang on every word uttered by them, or by Rome, when we should simply ignore them and not become involved in their endless negotiation dramas, which drain the life from our spirit and leave us always speculating and uncertain.

Observe, this thread is my witness.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 08:05:09 AM
Quote from: ascent
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: ascent
SSPX has always been valid and licit because they've always remained Catholic.


That principle isn't correct.  Even before Vatican II it wasn't enough to be "Catholic" in order to have jurisdiction to forgive sins.


 :facepalm:

Yet, it was YOU who was enrolled at an SSPX seminary that taught the reality of supplied jurisdiction in this Crisis. Do you want to explain this contradiction?


 :facepalm:

I swear this board is filled with people who didn't make it out of the third grade.

What part of this do you not understand?  It does not suffice to be a Catholic in order to have jurisdiction.  How is this difficult?  You claimed that the SSPX has jurisdiction to hear Confessions "because they've always remained Catholic."  That's false.  It's because of supplied jurisdiction due to the state of emergency in the Church, not because they have been Catholic.  Even before Vatican II, one could be a CATHOLIC priest in the Diocese of Cleveland but he couldn't just show up in the diocese of Pittsburgh and validly hear Confessions without receiving jurisdiction from the bishop to do so.  In other words, being Catholic doesn't suffice for jurisdiction.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 08:08:39 AM
Quote from: Matthew
How about just being calm and realistic?


I'm not against being rationally suspicious of the motives; quite to the contrary.  I'm talking about all this bitter blustering that's uncharitable.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 08:13:44 AM
Quote from: MaterDominici
Quote from: covet truth
Quote from: Ladislaus
I really cannot understand the bitterness here against Francis for this.  No doubt he is just trying to be kind.  I think we need to put aside the ranting and raving already.  As far as we know, he's done this as a unilateral gesture with no strings attached.


Uh huh, just as he is "kind" to practicing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, lesbians, alternative "families", divorced and remarried Catholics who want to still receive the Eucharist, and all other ecuмenical gestures to protestants without their conversion. There is just no end to his "kindness".  Do we confess Our Lord Jesus Christ and his commandments or do we not?  


THIS^, is the "best" light I can see this in. Sure, it might be a nice gesture, but it's given in the same manner he's extending kindness to all sorts of sinful behavior.


Exact OPPOSITE OF THIS^

That's the dumbest "reasoning" I've heard yet.  Just because he's shown false kindness to others doesn't mean that this couldn't also be an act of genuine kindness direct towards SSPX.

If I was dying of thirst and some sodomite gave me a glass of water, I would still tell him thank you for the water; his otherwise sinful life wouldn't necessarily preclude his having been moved by compassion to give me the water.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: stgobnait on September 02, 2015, 09:12:54 AM
Unless the sodomite was giving you the water in order to recruit you....
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Croix de Fer on September 02, 2015, 09:19:55 AM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: ascent
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: ascent
SSPX has always been valid and licit because they've always remained Catholic.


That principle isn't correct.  Even before Vatican II it wasn't enough to be "Catholic" in order to have jurisdiction to forgive sins.


 :facepalm:

Yet, it was YOU who was enrolled at an SSPX seminary that taught the reality of supplied jurisdiction in this Crisis. Do you want to explain this contradiction?


What part of this do you not understand?  It does not suffice to be a Catholic in order to have jurisdiction.  How is this difficult?  You claimed that the SSPX has jurisdiction to hear Confessions "because they've always remained Catholic."  That's false.


 :facepalm:

SSPX has jurisdiction to hear Confessions because they've always remained Catholic (and valid priests). Any reader with average reading comprehension, and some understanding of the Catholic Church, can see that this truth in parenthesis was implied. I wasn’t saying being Catholic, alone, suffices for jurisdiction. However, if a valid priest ever becomes a heretic, it wouldn’t be licit for him to administer the Sacraments. He wouldn’t have supplied jurisdiction.

Quote from: Ladislaus
In other words, being Catholic doesn't suffice for jurisdiction.


Again, being a Catholic priest (in order to be truly Catholic, you must be in the Faith; and in order to be a real priest, you must have valid Holy Orders) does suffice for supplied jurisdiction in this emergency.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 09:25:16 AM
Yeah, so I'm supposed to read your mind.  What you stated was that being Catholic sufficed for jurisdiction.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 09:26:16 AM
Quote from: ascent
Again, being a Catholic priest (in order to be truly Catholic, you must be in the Faith; and in order to be a real priest, you must have valid Holy Orders) does suffice for supplied jurisdiction in this emergency.


Too bad that's not even close to what you actually wrote.  Nice attempt at after-the-fact revisionism.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Croix de Fer on September 02, 2015, 09:32:03 AM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: ascent
Again, being a Catholic priest (in order to be truly Catholic, you must be in the Faith; and in order to be a real priest, you must have valid Holy Orders) does suffice for supplied jurisdiction in this emergency.


Too bad that's not even close to what you actually wrote.  Nice attempt at after-the-fact revisionism.


Go back to remedial reading class. It's no wonder you flunked out of the seminary.  :laugh2:  :laugh1:  :roll-laugh1:
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 09:34:55 AM
Part of what everyone's missing is hinted at in the DICI release.  There are probably a fair number of faithful at SSPX chapels who receive the Sacrament of Confession with a certain amount of trepidation.  If they have to rely upon being right about the fact that the emergency situation suffices for supplied jurisdiction, they might be approaching the Sacrament with some degree of having their fingers crossed and hoping that it's valid ... i.e. without complete certainty.  There's an analogy here with Perfect Contrition (along with the intention to receive the Sacrament) vs. the Sacrament of Confession.  You can try to make an act of perfect contrition and hope that you have done so, but you can't be completely certain; that's why the Sacrament brings such comfort with it.  You have concrete assurances that you have been forgiven (provided you didn't deliberately conceal anything and at least had an imperfect contrition for your sins).  Same thing applies here.  DICI refers to the fact that the faithful can approach the Sacrament during the "Year of Mercy" without "worry".

And in fact, this doesn't even necessarily imply that the supplied jurisdiction wasn't there to begin with just as receiving the Sacrament of Confession doesn't mean that there wasn't also Perfect Contrition and restoration to sanctifying grace beforehand.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 09:36:45 AM
Quote from: ascent
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: ascent
Again, being a Catholic priest (in order to be truly Catholic, you must be in the Faith; and in order to be a real priest, you must have valid Holy Orders) does suffice for supplied jurisdiction in this emergency.


Too bad that's not even close to what you actually wrote.  Nice attempt at after-the-fact revisionism.


Go back to remedial reading class. It's no wonder you flunked out of the seminary.  :laugh2:  :laugh1:  :roll-laugh1:


I quoted exactly what you wrote, o intellectually-challenged one.  What you WROTE was that they had jurisdiction simply by virtue of being Catholic.  Evidently you are the one who can't even read your own posts.  Run along now.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 09:39:02 AM
Just a reminder since you apparently have short-term memory problems in addition to the general lack of intellectual capacity.

Quote from: ascent
SSPX has always been valid and licit because they've always remained Catholic.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Matthew on September 02, 2015, 09:41:09 AM
Yes, giving the SSPX jurisdiction to hear confessions is objectively a good thing, taken in isolation.

But we can't really take this in isolation. At least the wise or non-foolish among us will not be inclined to treat of this ONE MOVE in isolation.

It is part of a broad program to re-integrate the SSPX into the One World Religion pantheon, of which the Conciliar Church is the seed or nexus.

This is a bribe, bait for a trap, if not a prelude to the formal deal itself!  And no, a deal with Modernist Rome is NOT a good thing, despite some isolated good(s) here or there that would result. Maybe a family gets the guts to start going to an SSPX chapel over here, or a few of them over there.

But let us all not forget the big picture: the compromise of the SSPX with MODERNIST, APOSTATE Rome is NOT a good thing. It will do more harm than good.


When you're sitting in a plane with 0 of 4 engines functional, it's really foolish (objectively speaking) to gush over the quality of the seats, the entertainment, the drinks, etc. You have to look at the big, overall picture.

Yes, it's great that the Titanic fixed its climate control system. Hooray! We'll just ignore that big iceberg-sized gash in the forward hull of the ship. At least everyone can be warm and cozy as they sink to the bottom of the ocean...
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 09:43:32 AM
Quote from: Matthew
Yes, giving the SSPX jurisdiction to hear confessions is objectively a good thing, taken in isolation.

But we can't really take this in isolation.

It is part of a broad program to re-integrate the SSPX into the One World Religion pantheon, of which the Conciliar Church is the seed or nexus.


Quite possibly, but it's only dangerous or potentially harmful if there's a partner (aka an accomplice) on the other end; I'm only surprised that this wasn't preceded by a Rosary Crusade for exactly this intention.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Matthew on September 02, 2015, 09:46:18 AM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Matthew
Yes, giving the SSPX jurisdiction to hear confessions is objectively a good thing, taken in isolation.

But we can't really take this in isolation.

It is part of a broad program to re-integrate the SSPX into the One World Religion pantheon, of which the Conciliar Church is the seed or nexus.


Quite possibly, but it's only dangerous or potentially harmful if there's a partner (aka an accomplice) on the other end; I'm only surprised that this wasn't preceded by a Rosary Crusade for exactly this intention.


Again, I say, "Where have you been". There are clearly accomplices on both sides; that much should be evident to anyone objectively following the news.

Bishop Fellay wants a deal so bad he can taste it. And yes, he's "that obvious". He thinks he's done a good job of hiding it, being stoic, or putting one over on us. He's mistaken. Just look at the whole Resistance.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 09:47:29 AM
Another interesting aspect is that Rome doesn't entirely see the SSPX as non-Catholic.  You wouldn't grant "jurisdiction" to a bunch of people who are not Catholic simpliciter ... e.g. to the Orthodox.  There has been other language in the past which indicates the same thing, that they're "canonically irregular" and referring the rift as an "internal matter of the Church".
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 09:48:52 AM
Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Matthew
Yes, giving the SSPX jurisdiction to hear confessions is objectively a good thing, taken in isolation.

But we can't really take this in isolation.

It is part of a broad program to re-integrate the SSPX into the One World Religion pantheon, of which the Conciliar Church is the seed or nexus.


Quite possibly, but it's only dangerous or potentially harmful if there's a partner (aka an accomplice) on the other end; I'm only surprised that this wasn't preceded by a Rosary Crusade for exactly this intention.


Again, I say, "Where have you been". There are clearly accomplices on both sides; that much should be evident to anyone objectively following the news.

Bishop Fellay wants a deal so bad he can taste it. And yes, he's "that obvious". He thinks he's done a good job of hiding it, being stoic, or putting one over on us. He's mistaken. Just look at the whole Resistance.


Right, but I'm not 100% sure that +Fellay was in on this particular development.  Maybe he DID just find out about it in the paper (i.e. on the interwebs).
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Matthew on September 02, 2015, 09:52:57 AM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Another interesting aspect is that Rome doesn't entirely see the SSPX as non-Catholic.  You wouldn't grant "jurisdiction" to a bunch of people who are not Catholic simpliciter ... e.g. to the Orthodox.  There has been other language in the past which indicates the same thing, that they're "canonically irregular" and referring the rift as an "internal matter of the Church".


Yes, as someone (you?) pointed out, he referred to the SSPX adherents as "the faithful". You don't call non-Catholic congregations by that name.

Again, this is part of a very seductive carrot, or bait for a trap. You can see the two sides coming together. And that is not a good thing. Rome is about as far from converted as you can get.

Say I had a bunch of worldly co-workers -- who I was normally not close to -- but at a certain point I realized that I had been hanging out with them all the time and totally accepted by them. Wouldn't that be disturbing? Especially if they hadn't changed at all. If I ever found myself in such a situation, I think I'd slap myself and go on a 1-week retreat to see what's happened to me, or at least what happened to my Catholicism.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: covet truth on September 02, 2015, 09:55:16 AM
Quote from: covet truth
I think we are missing something in this discussion.  We haven't addressed what the reality of this whole mercy idea pertains to: of allowing priests to forgive sins heretofore only forgiven by a bishop or Rome.  

In the N.O. there is very little "confession" as we know it.  They have some kind of "reconciliation" service that forgives sins as a group without confession.  Will these types of sins be included in such a service.  I haven't seen anything written that requires a true confession of sin.  This whole year of mercy idea just strikes me as a whitewash of the seriousness of sin and in particular the most serious sins that required a special absolution before now.


Let's get away from these personal and bitter attacks and get back to the reality of how the "Year of Mercy" is going to be perceived by "Catholics" who are so far removed from any understanding of sin that they think Pope Francis/the Catholic Church has now come to their way of thinking.  This explains what I mean:

http://www.sheknows.com/living/articles/1094539/pope-francis-comments-on-abortion-make-me-reconsider-leaving-the-church
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Matthew on September 02, 2015, 09:57:05 AM
It doesn't matter if +Fellay was in on this particular development or not.

When a couple is openly courting each other, you can't leave the other party out of the equation, even if the man (or woman) decides to surprise the other with a gift or other token of affection. The affection is being fostered and nurtured by both sides over many months. Yes, it's technically true that she had no idea he was going to give her that beautiful necklace.

But can she really say she's shocked or flabbergasted? They've been expressing love for each other, spending time together, meeting each other's family, talking about marriage...

Let's just say it's normal and expected, even if the particulars of this gesture were a surprise to one of the parties.

Or a better example -- a woman getting a proposal from her beau.  They've been courting for months, talking marriage, but isn't she still somewhat happy/excited/surprised/etc. when he actually pops the question? She had no idea WHEN he would do it, or what the circuмstances would be. That much will be a surprise. But the proposal itself? I'm sure she saw it coming.

Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 10:08:25 AM
Quote from: Matthew
When a couple is openly courting each other, you can't leave the other party out of the equation, even if the man (or woman) decides to surprise the other with a gift or other token of affection. The affection is being fostered and nurtured by both sides over many months. Yes, it's technically true that she had no idea he was going to give her that beautiful necklace.


This evokes strange (comical?) images of Francis and +Fellay.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: stgobnait on September 02, 2015, 10:10:13 AM
The rest of us did, we just wondered what form it would take, now we know...
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 02, 2015, 10:17:02 AM
.

There was a second thread on this same topic:

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=37881#p0

It begins with McElwee, an NCR Vatican correspondent's article, then the Letter from Francesco I:  "To My Venerable Brother, Archbishop Rino Fisichella, President of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the New Evangelization."

(Seems to have the air of "here's some inside personal correspondence that the world is welcome to peek into," as if it's snooping into forbidden affairs, instead of "Here is the Pope with a public message intended for dissemination to all the Faithful.")

.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 02, 2015, 11:27:31 AM
Quote from: Matthew

Bishop Fellay wants a deal so bad he can taste it. And yes, he's "that obvious". He thinks he's done a good job of hiding it, being stoic, or putting one over on us. He's mistaken. Just look at the whole Resistance.



I don't think he's "mistaken."  He's clever like a fox, and he has been deliberately testing the waters by his personal appearances all over the world for the past 21 years since he was first elected SG, through which, along with his selected informants worldwide, he has monitored the transition of opinions among the Faithful and Society priests from the state they were largely in during the lifetime of ABL, to the ideal of his lifelong objective:

Willingness to Make a Deal with Modernist Rome:                    
             
"What's wrong with a practical agreement?"
                   



Bishop Fellay is not only a believer in evolution, he is a PRACTITIONER of same.

Have you ever heard him preach about the erroneous hypothesis of evolution?

No, you haven't, and don't bother waiting because you never will.

We might be under the impression that he's "mistaken" because we are cognizant of his subterfuge and deliberate agenda of deceit, acting in one way and speaking in another, but he has been watching the effects of BOTH his actions and his words, even if they are at odds with each other, and he knows what he can get away with.  

Hell, he can even expel one of his brother bishops (an act UNPRECEDENTED in the entire history of the Church for any pious fraternity!!!) and have the MAJORITY of his followers give him a free pass because they think the expelled bishop was 'anti-Semitic', a crime that to modern man is an UNFORGIVABLE sin.  But that's only because modern man in the main has no idea what 'anti-Semitism' really means.  They can't define it.

But I can.  

But who cares?  Modern man has been Chinese-tortured into thinking that definition, per se, is not relevant.

Bishop Bernard Fellay has been hanging this agenda of reconciliation with Rome out for all to see ever since 1996, and perhaps a year earlier.  I know because I was in Arcadia when he came there that year to give a 3-hour conference after Mass.  I stood there and with my own 2 eyes and ears, saw him describe the attractiveness of being normalized with Rome as (quote) "...a luscious plumb."

He wiggled his manicured fingers in the air as he described the attractiveness of this luscious plumb, in a manner that all-too-well reminded me of Cardfile Balony, I mean Cardinal Mahony, whom some are convinced is a Freemason.

It was only later, upon reflection, that it occurred to me that this description was all too reminiscent of the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden.  

Through the years, I have never heard him DENY that he desires to be reconciled with Rome even if Rome remains Modernist, NewAge, Novus Ordo and 'evolved' from the 'obsolete' roots from which it sprang.  

I have not heard of him ever pronouncing an explanation for this logical discontinuity and separation from the ultimate product of ABL's lifetime of contemplation and experience, to wit, it is useless to try to have any effect on Rome so as to 'convert' her to the Faith of Catholics, and no doctrinal discussions would ever make a whit of difference, so long as Rome has not converted first;  but when Rome converts first, no doctrinal discussion would be necessary.

What I have seen instead are numerous long-winded and boring speeches where he drones on and on and on with fuzzy feel-goodisms and ambiguous half-meaningless or poorly worded spontaneous translations from some foreign language, since his ESL leaves him at a loss in English for he doesn't THINK in English (as +W obviously does).  One might think "something was lost in the translation," but I rather conclude that "something ELSE was lost in translation," since from the start there was missing substance.

What was missing?



T h e     h o n e s t     t r u t h :          

I am here to lead the Society of St. Pius X into the control of Rome          

and it would be nice if I don't have to do it          

with too many Faithful and/or Society priests          

kicking and screaming.
         




Epilogue:

He believes he can transform Rome from the inside (hopefully back to Tradition!) because, hell, he has been able to transform the SSPX into a Modernist-Rome-friendly Society from the inside, and only a miracle worker would ever have been able to pull that off, therefore, he can do the reverse manoeuvre to Rome as well................."Watch me."


.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: claudel on September 02, 2015, 12:39:57 PM
Quote from: richard
Do these faculties apply only for the Jubilee year? I mean, do they go "poof" after the year is up?


First, a small correction to the form of your question. What the letter concerns is not the faculties themselves so much as the Vatican's stated recognition of those faculties' valid and licit character. Of course, the vast bulk of the Traditionalist movement takes a state of spiritual emergency as a given and thus openly or tacitly appeals to ecclesia supplet. In common with virtually everything else of an official nature issuing from a pope or a Vatican dicastery at least since the eighties, this letter fails to acknowledge even the existence of a canonical basis for Traditionalism.

Now, with regard to the intent of your question, as this is a letter signed by the pope, it should be the presumption that its words mean what they say. So yes, there is a sell-by date to Fabulous Frank's recognition of SSPX confessional faculties. If you were, say, a Rorate Caeli moderator, you would already have set the alarm to ring in December 2016.

Quote from: Arvinger
As it was easy to predict, the enemies of the SSPX now have additional ammunition to argue that the SSPX priests did not have power to absolve sins up till now:

Quote from: Fr Zuhlsdorf
Along with this, the fact of Pope Francis’ move, together with the wording, confirms what I have been saying all along about the priests of the SSPX: they do not and have not had the faculty validly to absolve sins! The fact that this is being granted for the Year of Mercy bears out what I have been saying.


This is a highly interesting comment, and it merits examination rather than (or, at least, along with) the sneers it's gotten in abundance. Of course, no one hereabouts is so deluded as to think that Father Zorro is a Trad or even a friend of Tradition. He shouldn't, however, be taken for an utter fool.

First and foremost, his comments demonstrate that he can read actual words—and that is a skill that I wish lay thicker on the ground here at CathInfo. Applying the principle that "exceptio probat regulam de rebus non exceptis" (this being the full form of "the [presence of an] exception proves the [existence of a] rule [concerning matters not excepted]"), he correctly states the fundamental implication of the words in the letter: Pope Francis (as head of the institutional church, whether he admits to being its head or not) denies both the validity and liceity of the confessions that priests of the SSPX hear.

Surely Zorro is correct in regarding this as a big deal. Before this letter was issued, the papal and Vatican line had, for forty years and more, focused solely on liceity, thus implicitly granting what was obvious to any and every Catholic: validly ordained priests administer valid sacraments, like it or not.* After all, genuinely grave absence of liceity is enough to send a witting offender to hell, so why bluff when you're holding an aces-high full house?

The denotation of Francis's words, however, is plain: SSPX confessions are ipso facto neither valid nor licit. The first degree of connotation from the plain meaning may be paraphrased thus: being an old softie and for the sake of those deluded Catholics who haven't yet got with the program, I'm giving SSPX priests and the Society's laity a one-year indult from excommunication and damnation.

Whether Francis means to abolish hell at his next synod is a matter for a separate thread. (Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.) It suffices that in this letter, he has raised the stakes significantly. How the other poker players and the sideline spectators (including us) respond to his move is what will be worth watching in the days and weeks to come.

In sum, Father Zuhlsdorf may be firmly aligned with the enemy, but as he's shown here that he understands what words mean and imply, we should thank him and—perhaps just this once—learn from him.
_________________________

* Benedict's use of the terms "legitimate" and "illegitimate" was and remains bizarre and malapropos. That these terms have since been widely and incorrectly employed here and elsewhere has pointlessly larded a new layer of confusion onto minds that would be better served by a good sandblasting.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: trento on September 02, 2015, 12:43:01 PM
SSPX regulars won't bother much about this because they will still go to SSPX priests for confession before and after the "Year of Mercy" regardless. This announcement by Pope Francis, I reckon, will be more food for thought for those SSPX-hating indult/motu proprio folks. Those who fear going to SSPX priests for confession usually belongs to this group. Will they start flocking to Society chapels? I doubt so, but we shall see.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Capt McQuigg on September 02, 2015, 12:59:11 PM
Quote from: claudel


Whether Francis means to abolish hell at his next synod is a matter for a separate thread. (Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.)


I didn't know abolishing Hell was even on the chopping block.  We'll have to wait and see what comes out of the October synod first.  Hell may eventually be abolished in the novus ordo through mere omission.  Just stop mentioning it.  That's been going on for decades.    

What Claudel said in his post has introduced a different light on Pope Francis' actions.  By issuing this statement, is Pope Francis actually taking the offensive against the SSPX and Tradition?  In the first years of his pontificate, he usually just sneeringly referred to people "behind the times" but now has stated that for his year of mercy, he will allow the SSPX priests to validly absolve sins.  This has an expiration date because the year of mercy has an expiration date.  

What next?

What will follow?

Who here at CathInfo was surprised by Pope Francis' actions?
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: songbird on September 02, 2015, 01:07:17 PM
Hm?  Isn't forgiveness of sin, penance of the catholics?  Are all abortionists, catholic?  In our area, we have a Jєω for an abortionist.  They have no sorrow, there for they get nothing.

Does this mean the Pope is also cleansed of his sins of supporting abortion in all dioceses that take on Catholic Charities?  Hm?  Never a mention in the media for the atrocities of the new Order supporting abortion.  Life site news could do better.
Let's accuse the ones who refer and gather the money.  
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Stubborn on September 02, 2015, 01:11:10 PM
Quote from: trento
SSPX regulars won't bother much about this because they will still go to SSPX priests for confession before and after the "Year of Mercy" regardless. This announcement by Pope Francis, I reckon, will be more food for thought for those SSPX-hating indult/motu proprio folks. Those who fear going to SSPX priests for confession usually belongs to this group. Will they start flocking to Society chapels? I doubt so, but we shall see.


It only takes a very few to stir the pot and cause dissension.

I remember hearing in one of his talks, Fr. John O'Connor said that typically, it only takes 2% of any group to stir the pot to turn the whole group into a mob. Perhaps that is one of the ulterior motives of this announcement - "Here SSPX, you need some NOers to mix in and start protesting having the priest's back to the people, and no vernacular and homo rights or no CITH or...."

Time will tell I guess.



 


Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 02, 2015, 01:16:15 PM
I disagree with your analysis, claudel.  You talk about "denotation" and the ability to read "actual words".  But there are NO "actual words" which explicitly state:  "SSPX's Confessions are not currently valid."  One can argue that it's strongly implied, but it's not denoted in any actual words.

And it's not true that the Vatican had heretofore granted the validity of all the Sacraments administered by SSPX priests while focusing on liceity.  In the case of those Sacraments that require jurisdiction, liceity and validity are closely related.

Nor did Francis merely "recognize" the faculties; he explicitly granted them.

Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: claudel on September 02, 2015, 01:24:57 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus
I disagree with your analysis, claudel.


Good for you.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: stgobnait on September 02, 2015, 02:51:56 PM
What I cannot believe is that those Priests who Ministered to us for so many years, are so silent at being offered a cloak of respectability, that they believed they never needed.. and we believed them too....
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Clemens Maria on September 02, 2015, 03:32:03 PM
Quote from: claudel
Whether Francis means to abolish hell at his next synod is a matter for a separate thread.


According to the Conciliar Church hell does exist but only traditional Catholics go there.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 02, 2015, 03:43:14 PM
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: trento
SSPX regulars won't bother much about this because they will still go to SSPX priests for confession before and after the "Year of Mercy" regardless. This announcement by Pope Francis, I reckon, will be more food for thought for those SSPX-hating indult/motu proprio folks. Those who fear going to SSPX priests for confession usually belongs to this group. Will they start flocking to Society chapels? I doubt so, but we shall see.


It only takes a very few to stir the pot and cause dissension.

I remember hearing in one of his talks, Fr. John O'Connor said that typically, it only takes 2% of any group to stir the pot to turn the whole group into a mob. Perhaps that is one of the ulterior motives of this announcement - "Here SSPX, you need some NOers to mix in and start protesting having the priest's back to the people, and no vernacular and homo rights or no CITH or...."

Time will tell I guess.


I'm not too quick today.  I read this the first time and said, "What in the world could 'CITH' mean?"  So I went away and came back later and read it again and just when I was about to consult a search engine, I thought, "How would you abbreviate Communion in the Hand?  CH or CITH?"  HAHAHAHAHA

You're right on target, Stubborn:  2% makes a mob, protesting N.O.-ers, throw in a few LGBT activists, CITH.  

Whatever.  Who knows what will spring up!?  

When the revolutionaries destroyed the TLM, they didn't have to come up with all the details for the replacement ceremonies.  All they had to do was allow for innovations under the umbrella "Options."  In the worst case, for how a bishop should incense the altar at a particular part of one ceremony, whenever a bishop wrote to Rome asking for clarification Rome's reply was DEFINITIVE of their method.  They said that it makes no difference what moves are made and what words are spoken while doing this incense ceremony -- just be sure you do NOT follow the same rubrics that you have used in the past.

.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 02, 2015, 03:50:31 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus

I disagree with your analysis, claudel.  You talk about "denotation" and the ability to read "actual words".  But there are NO "actual words" which explicitly state:  "SSPX's Confessions are not currently valid."  


Absolutely true.

Quote
One can argue that it's strongly implied, but it's not denoted in any actual words.

And it's not true that the Vatican had heretofore granted the validity of all the Sacraments administered by SSPX priests while focusing on liceity.  In the case of those Sacraments that require jurisdiction, liceity and validity are closely related.

Nor did Francis merely "recognize" the faculties; he explicitly granted them.



All excellent points.  Bravo.

.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 02, 2015, 03:52:26 PM
Quote from: Clemens Maria
Quote from: claudel
Whether Francis means to abolish hell at his next synod is a matter for a separate thread.

According to the Conciliar Church hell does exist but only traditional Catholics go there.



That's kinda funny, but hell is no laughing matter, so that puts a damper on the joke.    :thinking:

.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 02, 2015, 04:03:15 PM
Quote from: stgobnait
What I cannot believe is that those Priests who Ministered to us for so many years, are so silent at being offered a cloak of respectability, that they believed they never needed.. and we believed them too....

It seems to me you're expecting too much.  They're not going to be coming out in droves to Internet forums or making phone calls asking for everyone to pass the word.  

Give them a chance to think about it and prepare a response, and next week we can all compare notes for what was said at Sunday sermon time by "those priests who ministered to us for so many years."  

We might have a lot more substance to go on by then.  For now we don't have much at all.  We have the twitter-drivel of "Fr. Z" but that's predictably laughable, and carries no credibility.

.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Graham on September 02, 2015, 04:13:37 PM
Quote from: claudel
Quote from: Arvinger
As it was easy to predict, the enemies of the SSPX now have additional ammunition to argue that the SSPX priests did not have power to absolve sins up till now:

Quote from: Fr Zuhlsdorf
Along with this, the fact of Pope Francis’ move, together with the wording, confirms what I have been saying all along about the priests of the SSPX: they do not and have not had the faculty validly to absolve sins! The fact that this is being granted for the Year of Mercy bears out what I have been saying.


This is a highly interesting comment, and it merits examination rather than (or, at least, along with) the sneers it's gotten in abundance. Of course, no one hereabouts is so deluded as to think that Father Zorro is a Trad or even a friend of Tradition. He shouldn't, however, be taken for an utter fool.

First and foremost, his comments demonstrate that he can read actual words—and that is a skill that I wish lay thicker on the ground here at CathInfo. Applying the principle that "exceptio probat regulam de rebus non exceptis" (this being the full form of "the [presence of an] exception proves the [existence of a] rule [concerning matters not excepted]"), he correctly states the fundamental implication of the words in the letter: Pope Francis (as head of the institutional church, whether he admits to being its head or not) denies both the validity and liceity of the confessions that priests of the SSPX hear.


I agree that this is the direct, obvious implication. It should not surprise anyone that Francis regards SSPX confessions as illicit (therefore invalid), since this is officially and necessarily the Conciliar position:

Quote from: Benedict XVI
As long as the Society [of Saint Pius X] does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church (…). Until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers (…) do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.


Quote from: claudel
Surely Zorro is correct in regarding this as a big deal. Before this letter was issued, the papal and Vatican line had, for forty years and more, focused solely on liceity, thus implicitly granting what was obvious to any and every Catholic: validly ordained priests administer valid sacraments, like it or not.* After all, genuinely grave absence of liceity is enough to send a witting offender to hell, so why bluff when you're holding an aces-high full house?


The sacraments of confession and marriage are different from the others in that they depend on the binding and loosing power of the Church. While the bestowal of holy orders, or the celebration of mass, can be valid but illicit, an illicit confession is ipso facto invalid. So you see, illiceity and therefore invalidity of SSPX confessions is and has ever been the Conciliar position. Which makes Ladislaus' hedging about denotations versus implications look ridiculous.

I'd be interested, claudel, in hearing how you think this development bears on the liberalization of the SSPX.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 02, 2015, 04:19:48 PM
Quote from: Capt McQuigg
Quote from: claudel

Whether Francis means to abolish hell at his next synod is a matter for a separate thread.

(Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.)


I didn't know abolishing Hell was even on the chopping block.  We'll have to wait and see what comes out of the October synod first.  Hell may eventually be abolished in the novus ordo through mere omission.  Just stop mentioning it.  That's been going on for decades.    

What Claudel said in his post has introduced a different light on Pope Francis' actions.  By issuing this statement, is Pope Francis actually taking the offensive against the SSPX and Tradition?  In the first years of his pontificate, he usually just sneeringly referred to people "behind the times" but now has stated that for his year of mercy, he will allow the SSPX priests to validly absolve sins.  This has an expiration date because the year of mercy has an expiration date.  

What next?

What will follow?

Who here at CathInfo was surprised by Pope Francis' actions?


I have to admit, it came as a bit of a surprise at first, but then when I looked at the particulars, it all rather adds up.  Francesco I is a spontaneous kind of guy, and no dummy in matters of protocol or Romanita`.  

This is a PRIVATE letter to the head of a Pontifical Council, which was allowed to be published for the world to see.  It is not addressed to the world, or to the Catholic Faithful, or even to a group of particular bishops.  It's not even addressed to the SSPX!!

It's addressed to:
Archbishop Rino Fisichella          
President of the Pontifical Council          
for the Promotion of the New Evangelization.          
[/i]


For all we know, the MSM may have caught wind of this before Abp. R. Fisichella ever realized he had MAIL to read!!!

(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think his name is pronounced, fis-ih-CHEL-la.

And when you put it all together, this action of Francesco I fits in perfectly with what +Fellay has been pushing for the past few years.  These two men are making each other look good to the general public.  

Accordistas are no doubt eating this up like September Festival Candy.  

As for what will follow, that's another question, but I wouldn't be too surprised if Menzingen makes another move forward, after all, they have until December 8th to come up with something appropriate.  But you can be sure they'll be wearing this badge of honor with pride of achievement starting NOW.

ANY good Freemason wouldn't do otherwise.

.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 02, 2015, 04:29:31 PM
.

The ink dried.  I should have written Franciscus I.

.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 02, 2015, 04:48:27 PM
Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Benedict XVI
As long as the Society [of Saint Pius X] does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church (…). Until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers (…) do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.

The sacraments of confession and marriage are different from the others in that they depend on the binding and loosing power of the Church. While the bestowal of holy orders, or the celebration of mass, can be valid but illicit, an illicit confession is ipso facto invalid. So you see, illiceity and therefore invalidity of SSPX confessions is and has ever been the Conciliar position. Which makes Ladislaus' hedging about denotations versus implications look ridiculous.

 




Nonsense.                          





The sacrament of confession, IN AN IRREGULAR SITUATION, such as the current chaos of emergency in the Church ever since Vat.II, depends primarily on supplied jurisdiction, which the Pope nor any Church authority can impede.  You apparently don't understand that fact, Graham.  

No human being, not even the Pope can prevent the Church from supplying jurisdiction to a priest when a penitent approaches him for the sacrament of Penance.

Therefore, when a Catholic faithful approaches an independent priest who is operating without ordinary jurisdiction from the local prelate, the priest automatically is supplied with jurisdiction (supplied by the binding and loosing authority of the Church) by the fact that the faithful penitent is approaching him for confession and absolution.  That's how it works.  The absolution he provides is not "ipso facto invalid" as you say (because you're wrong), it is entirely valid, no less than if the Pope himself were pronouncing it.

The reason Benedict XVI said what he did in the quote above is because he is deliberately ignoring the fact of the current crisis and consequent state of emergency in the Church, and his words and actions presume there IS NO such state of emergency afoot.  You have to keep that in mind when you read Conciliar gobbledegook like this, quoted above.

.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Graham on September 02, 2015, 05:15:34 PM
Neil, please behave yourself. I don't believe SSPX confessions to be illicit or invalid. I was explaining the Conciliar position, which was misunderstood by others. This is perfectly clear from my post, and additionally so from the most passing acquaintance with my posting history.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 02, 2015, 05:36:42 PM
Quote from: Matthew
Quote from: Ladislaus
Another interesting aspect is that Rome doesn't entirely see the SSPX as non-Catholic.  You wouldn't grant "jurisdiction" to a bunch of people who are not Catholic simpliciter ... e.g. to the Orthodox.  There has been other language in the past which indicates the same thing, that they're "canonically irregular" and referring the rift as an "internal matter of the Church".


Yes, as someone (you?) pointed out, he referred to the SSPX adherents as "the faithful". You don't call non-Catholic congregations by that name.

Again, this is part of a very seductive carrot, or bait for a trap. You can see the two sides coming together. And that is not a good thing. Rome is about as far from converted as you can get.

Say I had a bunch of worldly co-workers -- who I was normally not close to -- but at a certain point I realized that I had been hanging out with them all the time and totally accepted by them. Wouldn't that be disturbing? Especially if they hadn't changed at all. If I ever found myself in such a situation, I think I'd slap myself and go on a 1-week retreat to see what's happened to me, or at least what happened to my Catholicism.


Since when is being called Catholic by the Conciliar authority a good thing?
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: richard on September 02, 2015, 05:47:17 PM
Quote from: Clemens Maria
Quote from: claudel
Whether Francis means to abolish hell at his next synod is a matter for a separate thread.


According to the Conciliar Church hell does exist but only traditional Catholics go there.


I thought Francis said that Hell was a fable.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Binechi on September 02, 2015, 06:01:24 PM
 
 
  From a SSPX er...

 
Thank-you for forwarding this news.  The news article follows my comment, so you might want to skip down and read it first.
 
Francis has announced that, during the upcoming Jubilee year, any priest, anywhere, may forgive a woman the sin of abortion. He specifically stated that this is limited, for one year, and is to allow access to the Mercy of Almighty God to persons who most likely never knew Our Lord's mercy was available to them.
 
Along with this, and other, Jubilee Year "gifts", Francis is permitting the priests of the SSPX to give a valid and licit absolution of the sins of the faithful. Obviously, this means that confessions heard by SSPX priests outside of this one-year window, are neither valid  nor licit, according to the established Catholic Church. And, by their response, we see that the SSPX agrees with this belief, and states so by "expressing its gratitude to the Sovereign pontiff for this fatherly gesture.." ( of course, they also mumble something about having relied on Canon Law to dispense sacraments when they had no authority..)
 
Cardinal Mueller has stated, over and over, that the SSPX priests have "no function within the Catholic Church;" many cardinals and Bishops, including most of the European ones, have stated on numerous occasions that the SSPX must accept the Vatican Council and all its teachings in order to be re-integrated into the Catholic Church; Ratzinger, before he abandoned his post, stated that the SSPX must accept all the declarations of the Vatican Council, and the popes and their teachings since the Council, in order to be welcomed back into the Church.
 
In this news release, though, we learn that Francis expects the SSPX to be reintegrated into the new church, and this is , therefore, simply a step. Nothing, in Rome, is done by accident. Lord Acton used to say, when it comes to world politics, nothing is done by accident. This whole game is staged. The actors on the stage are (or were) Hoyos,  Wojytola, Ratzinger, Mueller, Francis (Jorge),Schmidberger, Fellay, Krah, Lorans, Rostand, and all their accompanying "yes-men." All of these individuals know there will be a reintegration; the only discussion is "on what terms and what is the best timing."
 
You see, Francis is many, many things. But with respect to running the Church of the One World Government, he is certainly not stupid. He knows that his one-world government masters are the very same ones who murdered, in cold blood, thousands, and millions, of Catholic priests and faithful; he knows that his "One World" friends raped and brutally killed thousands, and millions of faithful Catholic nuns, sisters, moms, and daughters. Francis knows this. Ratzinger Knows this. Wojytola and Paul VI were part of this; Krah is a part of this; Schmidberger, Lorans and their cohorts know this; and Fellay knows this. Fellay admitted, in 1993, that the Vatican was under the control of four or five Lodges of masonry "operating within the Vatican." They all know that these haters of Jesus Christ have wrought the destruction of the Catholic Church.
 
But, Francis has been advised that Fellay and company have sold out; that they have abandoned the principles of their founder, and that they are willing to do almost anything to get back into the main church. To prove this, they kicked out their own bishop who was a thorn in the side of the One-World Religionists; they kicked out hundreds of their own priests who insisted on adhering to the Archbishop's stance ;  they have abandoned thousands of their own faithful who refuse to go along with protestant Rome; and they have changed their doctrinal stance and insistence of Catholic integrity.  So, Fellay and Co. have proven their treasonous mettle; they have given the required evidence that they are turncoats. Now the game is to stage the play so the great majority of faithful are duped; allowing Rome to swallow up the SSPX whole with all the resources and people-- and in the meantime hammering that final nail into the coffin of the "most dangerous Bishop in the whole world" (this is the charge they leveled at Archbishop Lefebvre because he insisted in staying Roman Catholic).
 
Look closely at the SSPX' official response: "The Society of St. Pius X expresses its gratitude to the Sovereign Pontiff for this fatherly gesture."
How in the world can any organization, any group of people, any faithful Roman Catholic, and most especially the SSPX, even dare to play cat and mouse, to negotiate and set the terms of surrender, to question and cajole, to challenge, oppose, and disobey, He whom they themselves profess to be their Sovereign?  Is it possible to have a nuttier show going on? A group of people claim Francis is the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, head of the One, Catholic, Apostolic Church, and they dare to challenge Him and ignore His orders? Are they for real?
Rather, what has really happened, is the SSPX has already capitulated, but has been given time to "con the masses"; after which time there will be a "formal re-entry"-- or, as Francis puts it "solutions will be found in the near future." So, of course, during this Jubilee year, SSPX priests will be able to offer licit and valid absolutions. The only ones who are excited about this are the ones who don't realize that Judas has already received his pay; he's just waiting for the right moment to give the victim to the enemy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
MERCY






Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: BelovedStJohn on September 03, 2015, 12:16:26 AM
Quote from: Neil Obstat

I'm not too quick today.  I read this the first time and said, "What in the world could 'CITH' mean?"  So I went away and came back later and read it again and just when I was about to consult a search engine, I thought, "How would you abbreviate Communion in the Hand?  CH or CITH?"  HAHAHAHAHA




thanks  :cheers:
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 03, 2015, 01:41:45 AM
.

You're welcome  :cheers:

.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 03, 2015, 01:44:36 AM
Quote from: Graham
Neil, please behave yourself. I don't believe SSPX confessions to be illicit or invalid. I was explaining the Conciliar position, which was misunderstood by others. This is perfectly clear from my post, and additionally so from the most passing acquaintance with my posting history.

Sorry for the confusion.  I must have quoted you out of context or something.

So long as other readers don't get the wrong impression!!

.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Neil Obstat on September 03, 2015, 01:57:25 AM
.

I can't tell where the comment ends and the news article begins.  

Or, is the news article missing?

Quote from: Binechi
 
 
  From a SSPX er...

 
Thank-you for forwarding this news.  The news article follows my comment, so you might want to skip down and read it first.
 
Francis has announced that, during the upcoming Jubilee year, any priest, anywhere, may forgive a woman the sin of abortion. He specifically stated that this is limited, for one year, and is to allow access to the Mercy of Almighty God to persons who most likely never knew Our Lord's mercy was available to them.
 
Along with this, and other, Jubilee Year "gifts", Francis is permitting the priests of the SSPX to give a valid and licit absolution of the sins of the faithful. Obviously, this means that confessions heard by SSPX priests outside of this one-year window, are neither valid  nor licit, according to the established Catholic Church. And, by their response, we see that the SSPX agrees with this belief, and states so by "expressing its gratitude to the Sovereign pontiff for this fatherly gesture.." ( of course, they also mumble something about having relied on Canon Law to dispense sacraments when they had no authority..)
 
Cardinal Mueller has stated, over and over, that the SSPX priests have "no function within the Catholic Church;" many cardinals and Bishops, including most of the European ones, have stated on numerous occasions that the SSPX must accept the Vatican Council and all its teachings in order to be re-integrated into the Catholic Church; Ratzinger, before he abandoned his post, stated that the SSPX must accept all the declarations of the Vatican Council, and the popes and their teachings since the Council, in order to be welcomed back into the Church.
 
In this news release, though, we learn that Francis expects the SSPX to be reintegrated into the new church, and this is , therefore, simply a step. Nothing, in Rome, is done by accident. Lord Acton used to say, when it comes to world politics, nothing is done by accident. This whole game is staged. The actors on the stage are (or were) Hoyos,  Wojytola, Ratzinger, Mueller, Francis (Jorge),Schmidberger, Fellay, Krah, Lorans, Rostand, and all their accompanying "yes-men." All of these individuals know there will be a reintegration; the only discussion is "on what terms and what is the best timing."
 
You see, Francis is many, many things. But with respect to running the Church of the One World Government, he is certainly not stupid. He knows that his one-world government masters are the very same ones who murdered, in cold blood, thousands, and millions, of Catholic priests and faithful; he knows that his "One World" friends raped and brutally killed thousands, and millions of faithful Catholic nuns, sisters, moms, and daughters. Francis knows this. Ratzinger Knows this. Wojytola and Paul VI were part of this; Krah is a part of this; Schmidberger, Lorans and their cohorts know this; and Fellay knows this. Fellay admitted, in 1993, that the Vatican was under the control of four or five Lodges of masonry "operating within the Vatican." They all know that these haters of Jesus Christ have wrought the destruction of the Catholic Church.
 
But, Francis has been advised that Fellay and company have sold out; that they have abandoned the principles of their founder, and that they are willing to do almost anything to get back into the main church. To prove this, they kicked out their own bishop who was a thorn in the side of the One-World Religionists; they kicked out hundreds of their own priests who insisted on adhering to the Archbishop's stance ;  they have abandoned thousands of their own faithful who refuse to go along with protestant Rome; and they have changed their doctrinal stance and insistence of Catholic integrity.  So, Fellay and Co. have proven their treasonous mettle; they have given the required evidence that they are turncoats. Now the game is to stage the play so the great majority of faithful are duped; allowing Rome to swallow up the SSPX whole with all the resources and people-- and in the meantime hammering that final nail into the coffin of the "most dangerous Bishop in the whole world" (this is the charge they leveled at Archbishop Lefebvre because he insisted in staying Roman Catholic).
 
Look closely at the SSPX' official response: "The Society of St. Pius X expresses its gratitude to the Sovereign Pontiff for this fatherly gesture."

How in the world can any organization, any group of people, any faithful Roman Catholic, and most especially the SSPX, even dare to play cat and mouse, to negotiate and set the terms of surrender, to question and cajole, to challenge, oppose, and disobey, He whom they themselves profess to be their Sovereign?  Is it possible to have a nuttier show going on? A group of people claim Francis is the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, head of the One, Catholic, Apostolic Church, and they dare to challenge Him and ignore His orders? Are they for real?

Rather, what has really happened, is the SSPX has already capitulated, but has been given time to "con the masses"; after which time there will be a "formal re-entry"-- or, as Francis puts it "solutions will be found in the near future." So, of course, during this Jubilee year, SSPX priests will be able to offer licit and valid absolutions. The only ones who are excited about this are the ones who don't realize that Judas has already received his pay; he's just waiting for the right moment to give the victim to the enemy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
MERCY






Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Stubborn on September 03, 2015, 05:45:34 AM
Quote from: Neil Obstat
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: trento
SSPX regulars won't bother much about this because they will still go to SSPX priests for confession before and after the "Year of Mercy" regardless. This announcement by Pope Francis, I reckon, will be more food for thought for those SSPX-hating indult/motu proprio folks. Those who fear going to SSPX priests for confession usually belongs to this group. Will they start flocking to Society chapels? I doubt so, but we shall see.


It only takes a very few to stir the pot and cause dissension.

I remember hearing in one of his talks, Fr. John O'Connor said that typically, it only takes 2% of any group to stir the pot to turn the whole group into a mob. Perhaps that is one of the ulterior motives of this announcement - "Here SSPX, you need some NOers to mix in and start protesting having the priest's back to the people, and no vernacular and homo rights or no CITH or...."

Time will tell I guess.


I'm not too quick today.  I read this the first time and said, "What in the world could 'CITH' mean?"  So I went away and came back later and read it again and just when I was about to consult a search engine, I thought, "How would you abbreviate Communion in the Hand?  CH or CITH?"  HAHAHAHAHA

You're right on target, Stubborn:  2% makes a mob, protesting N.O.-ers, throw in a few LGBT activists, CITH.  

Whatever.  Who knows what will spring up!?  

When the revolutionaries destroyed the TLM, they didn't have to come up with all the details for the replacement ceremonies.  All they had to do was allow for innovations under the umbrella "Options."  In the worst case, for how a bishop should incense the altar at a particular part of one ceremony, whenever a bishop wrote to Rome asking for clarification Rome's reply was DEFINITIVE of their method.  They said that it makes no difference what moves are made and what words are spoken while doing this incense ceremony -- just be sure you do NOT follow the same rubrics that you have used in the past.

.


Yeah, CITH means communion in the hand, I should have spelled it out - but I was just trying to say what one of  the ulterior motives might be.

Much like the consequences of what was said about abortion will be that the masses will now take what he said to mean that; "pope Francis says women can now have abortions during year of mercy".

Not sure I'm explaining this correctly but the jist of it is, whenever Modernists state anything that is not in their usual multi-meaning, ambiguous NO speak way, whenever they say something clear, understandable and direct - that is when our alarm bells should go off - look out, they know what they're doing and ultimately, it's purpose is to further destroy the Church.

We know their constant goal is to destroy the Church, but Modernists don't have a bomb big enough or any single weapon for that, instead, they have darts and bullets and they rely on removing a cornerstone, on chipping away piece by piece, on gradual erosion, sabotage and on destruction from within.

So if we can think like a crook, then we know the only reason to state unambiguously that the SSPX confessions are now valid, is to further the agenda of the Modernists. How can saying the SSPX's confessions are now valid, be an aid in the Modernist's tool box? My question could be phrased as, "where are the darts pointed this time?"
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Nishant on September 03, 2015, 09:26:27 AM
1. God bless the Holy Father for this truly paternal gesture. It should be noted at this point that Rome has long recognized tacitly the validity of confessions made by SSPX priests, Bishop Fellay said some years ago, "SSPX priests who confront these cases in the confessional [excommunication in cases ordinarily reserved to the Pope] absolve the penitent from the sin, and from the excommunication. According to Church policy, the priest must then send the case to Rome to be examined, and the excommunication formally lifted. Bishop Fellay says, “Every time – absolutely every time – we have received an answer from Rome that the priest who took care of this confession did well, that it was perfectly in order, and it was both licit and valid.” Rome would then comment on the penance, whether it was sufficient or not enough."

This was reported by CFN, Bishop Fellay gave several other proofs of the same at the time. So, in principle, this is not something entirely new, although it obviously reflects the increasingly evident fact that the Society is clearly regarded as integrally Catholic by the Roman authorities.

2. But here again, you Resistance folk openly contradict yourselves at every turn. Bishop Williamson himself said that if the Holy Father were to offer him and Resistance priests a unilateral recognition, His Excellency would "be on the next plane to Rome, I'd be on the next plane to Rome!" The posters here, including Graham and others who critiqued this statement, surely remember this.

So what now? Has even that changed? We are going to refuse even a unilateral regularization from the Pope? Incredible. Unheard of. Based on what exactly in Tradition? Is it the dogma that says one must live outside the communion of the Roman Church and Her Sovereign Pontiff in order to please God and find salvation? Anybody who disagrees that the refusal of a unilateral recognition of a society by Rome is ridiculous show me anything - a Pope, a Saint, a Doctor - saying Catholic societies can be indifferent to the will of Rome and the Pope.

3. A final word on delegated or supplied jurisdiction. Supplied jurisdiction is a delegatio a iure, a delegation operative by the law itself. In a similar manner to how a Pope may send an Apostolic delegate granting him faculties to absolve only in certain specific cases, the law itself, by the tacit consent of the lawgiver, automatically delegates the said power to priests in certain extraordinary circuмstances, most notably the danger of death of the penitent.

Here is Fr. Miaskiewickz explain that even supplied jurisdiction depends on the Pope, "Supplied jurisdiction, then, is a jurisdiction, be it ordinary or delegated, which is bestowed in an extraordinary manner, without any formality, even perchance to people who are unfit and unworthy ... the Supreme Pontiff, from whom all jurisdiction emanates and from whom all common law has its origin, supplies the necessary jurisdiction." Supplied or automatically delegated jurisdiction is not independent of the will of the Sovereign Pontiff, the supreme lawgiver, on the contrary, it depends on at least his tacit consent.

Whether we like it or not, Christ our Lord founded the Church in such a way that all authority, or jurisdiction, "rolls downward" from the Pope, to the bishops appointed by him, the priests sent by him, the faithful governed by them in communion with him. All authority comes from Rome in the Catholic Church. Period.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Matthew on September 03, 2015, 09:45:05 AM
Quote from: Nishant

2. But here again, you Resistance folk openly contradict yourselves at every turn. Bishop Williamson himself said that if the Holy Father were to offer him and Resistance priests a unilateral recognition, His Excellency would "be on the next plane to Rome, I'd be on the next plane to Rome!" The posters here, including Graham and others who critiqued this statement, surely remember this.

So what now? Has even that changed? We are going to refuse even a unilateral regularization from the Pope?
*SNIP*


WHOA, Nellie!

Before you go off on a 1-paragraph tangent about this -- if you'll give me a chance -- I'll be happy to give you the simple answer to your question.

It's too late for a unilateral recognition, in the case of the SSPX

Unilateral comes from the Latin unus (one) and latus, lateris (side).
So it's a one-sided deal, where one side just DOES something on its own volition, without consulting the other side.

It should be obvious to most -- at least those with their eyes open -- that it's too late for a one-sided anything, since there have been secret negotiations going on for 15+ years now. It would be a deal, a compromise, a practical agreement. That is NOT the same thing Bishop Williamson said he'd be happy to receive.

Now if Rome approached the Resistance and said, "Guess what? It's your lucky day. Enjoy full recognition from Rome henceforward!" they could honestly take it and run with it, because they haven't compromised or made any deal with them. They haven't made any concessions. They haven't kicked out any controversial priests/bishops, they haven't disowned the concept of emergency consecrations to continue Tradition, they haven't released any April 15th Declaration, they haven't purged any bookstores, they haven't used legal means to censor the works of Archbishop Lefebvre, or any of a hundred other compromises.

But a truly unilateral "gift", where Rome just walks up and hands them something -- that's the kind of "deal" Bishop Williamson was talking about. Obviously +Williamson hasn't done anything to make himself more palatable by Modernist Rome. On the contrary, he is so faithful to his old self, that the SSPX saw the need to illegally cast him out, to make THEMSELVES more palatable by Rome!

Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 03, 2015, 09:46:28 AM
Well said, Nishant.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: covet truth on September 03, 2015, 10:11:28 AM
Nishant and Ladislaus can rejoice in the coming union of the SSPX and Rome when the past 40 years of resistance will become a footnote in the history books and the name of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre will be erased altogether.  Altogether now: "Mea culpa, Mea culpa, Mea maxima culpa!"  
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 03, 2015, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: covet truth
Nishant and Ladislaus can rejoice in the coming union of the SSPX and Rome when the past 40 years of resistance will become a footnote in the history books and the name of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre will be erased altogether.  Altogether now: "Mea culpa, Mea culpa, Mea maxima culpa!"  


Sedevacantist here, but Amen.

You would think by some of the posts here that Francis actually did something praiseworthy.  Like denounce false ecuмenism or religious liberty.  You know, the real reasons any so-called Trad is fighting any of these fights.  
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: covet truth on September 03, 2015, 10:48:34 AM
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: covet truth
Nishant and Ladislaus can rejoice in the coming union of the SSPX and Rome when the past 40 years of resistance will become a footnote in the history books and the name of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre will be erased altogether.  Altogether now: "Mea culpa, Mea culpa, Mea maxima culpa!"  


Sedevacantist here, but Amen.

You would think by some of the posts here that Francis actually did something praiseworthy.  Like denounce false ecuмenism or religious liberty.  You know, the real reasons any so-called Trad is fighting any of these fights.  


To some he has the "authority" to promote false ecuмenism and religious liberty, and whatever else strikes his fancy whether it's of the Deposit of Faith or not.  We only have to follow and obey.  It's so much easier just to go with the flow, never questioning where that flow will end up.  
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: JPaul on September 03, 2015, 11:17:05 AM
All of this mixup and confusion comes from conflating the Catholic Church with the conciliar church. The false belief that something Catholic can be non-Catholic at the same time. As Neil quoted somewhere, this kind of thought  quickly  leads to the end of sound thinking and ruin.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 03, 2015, 11:29:11 AM
Quote from: J.Paul
All of this mixup and confusion comes from conflating the Catholic Church with the conciliar church. The false belief that something Catholic can be non-Catholic at the same time. As Neil quoted somewhere, this kind of thought  quickly  leads to the end of sound thinking and ruin.


But isn't that the R&R view as well as the SSPX view?
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: AJNC on September 03, 2015, 11:30:14 AM
In his St Pius X Feast Day sermon, Fr Pfeiffer said that a good action done with an evil intent is sinful. He was talking about Francis granting SSPX priests the faculties to hear Confession during his Mercy Year. He likened it to a fox cleaning up a dirty bird only to eat it up later. Or to someone being good to a widow only to get hold of her money once she dies.
I think this sermon was taped, so the audio should be out soon.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Ladislaus on September 03, 2015, 12:21:47 PM
Quote from: covet truth
Nishant and Ladislaus can rejoice ...


 :cheers:
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: JPaul on September 03, 2015, 01:10:07 PM
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: J.Paul
All of this mixup and confusion comes from conflating the Catholic Church with the conciliar church. The false belief that something Catholic can be non-Catholic at the same time. As Neil quoted somewhere, this kind of thought  quickly  leads to the end of sound thinking and ruin.


But isn't that the R&R view as well as the SSPX view?

Yes
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: covet truth on September 03, 2015, 01:54:44 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: covet truth
Nishant and Ladislaus can rejoice ...


 :cheers:


That reminds me of a song which begins with:  

"In heaven there ain't no beer, that's why we drink it here....."
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Croix de Fer on September 03, 2015, 01:59:11 PM
Quote from: covet truth
Ladislaus can rejoice in the coming union of the SSPX and Rome when the past 40 years of resistance will become a footnote in the history books and the name of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre will be erased altogether.  Altogether now: "Mea culpa, Mea culpa, Mea maxima culpa!"  


Well, what do you expect from a guy, Ladislaus, who expressed the biggest logical fallacy in CathInfo history when stating, “God is not a Catholic God”, :facepalm: while saying, “Only Catholics can be saved”.  How can the heresy of the former be reconciled with the truth of the latter? It can’t…  
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: covet truth on September 03, 2015, 02:11:56 PM
Quote from: ascent
Quote from: covet truth
Ladislaus can rejoice in the coming union of the SSPX and Rome when the past 40 years of resistance will become a footnote in the history books and the name of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre will be erased altogether.  Altogether now: "Mea culpa, Mea culpa, Mea maxima culpa!"  


Well, what do you expect from a guy, Ladislaus, who expressed the biggest logical fallacy in CathInfo history when stating, “God is not a Catholic God”, :facepalm: while saying, “Only Catholics can be saved”.  How can the heresy of the former be reconciled with the truth of the latter? It can’t…  


Oh, I wouldn't bother Ladislaus.  He's too busy toasting to the demise of the SSPX of Archbishop Lefebvre.  Drinking and logic have little in common.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Graham on September 03, 2015, 07:04:47 PM
Quote from: J.Paul
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: J.Paul
All of this mixup and confusion comes from conflating the Catholic Church with the conciliar church. The false belief that something Catholic can be non-Catholic at the same time. As Neil quoted somewhere, this kind of thought  quickly  leads to the end of sound thinking and ruin.


But isn't that the R&R view as well as the SSPX view?

Yes


No, it absolutely is not. What can be said is that, due to R&R's sedeplenism, there is a tension in the distinction between Conciliar and Catholic - but the distinction certainly is integral to the "classic" R&R position. Read, learn:

Quote from: John Lane
On countless occasions, in sermons and addresses, in docuмents and books, and in conversation, Archbishop Lefebvre distinguished the
 Conciliar Church from the Catholic Church.


http://strobertbellarmine.net/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Conciliar_Church.pdf

The Neo-SSPX, however, Bp. Fellay and Fr. Pfluger in their sermons and conferences, have sought to blur this distinction.

Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 03, 2015, 07:08:20 PM
Quote from: Graham
Quote from: J.Paul
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: J.Paul
All of this mixup and confusion comes from conflating the Catholic Church with the conciliar church. The false belief that something Catholic can be non-Catholic at the same time. As Neil quoted somewhere, this kind of thought  quickly  leads to the end of sound thinking and ruin.


But isn't that the R&R view as well as the SSPX view?

Yes


No, it absolutely is not. What can be said is that, due to R&R's sedeplenism, there is a tension in the distinction between Conciliar and Catholic - but the distinction certainly is integral to the "classic" R&R position. Read, learn:

Quote from: John Lane
On countless occasions, in sermons and addresses, in docuмents and books, and in conversation, Archbishop Lefebvre distinguished the
 Conciliar Church from the Catholic Church.


http://strobertbellarmine.net/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Conciliar_Church.pdf

The Neo-SSPX, however, Bp. Fellay and Fr. Pfluger in their sermons and conferences, have sought to blur this distinction.



Eh, given Bishop Williamson's recent comments about the Novus Ordo "mass" I wouldn't be so quick to leave the R&R out of this.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: JPaul on September 03, 2015, 07:57:50 PM
Quote from: Graham
Quote from: J.Paul
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: J.Paul
All of this mixup and confusion comes from conflating the Catholic Church with the conciliar church. The false belief that something Catholic can be non-Catholic at the same time. As Neil quoted somewhere, this kind of thought  quickly  leads to the end of sound thinking and ruin.


But isn't that the R&R view as well as the SSPX view?

Yes


No, it absolutely is not. What can be said is that, due to R&R's sedeplenism, there is a tension in the distinction between Conciliar and Catholic - but the distinction certainly is integral to the "classic" R&R position. Read, learn:

Quote from: John Lane
On countless occasions, in sermons and addresses, in docuмents and books, and in conversation, Archbishop Lefebvre distinguished the
 Conciliar Church from the Catholic Church.


http://strobertbellarmine.net/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Conciliar_Church.pdf

The Neo-SSPX, however, Bp. Fellay and Fr. Pfluger in their sermons and conferences, have sought to blur this distinction.


I have read most of the Archbishops quotes, so there was nothing new to learn there. The Archbishop's distinctions could at one time or another be elastic as is the R&R position. Both avoid drawing an objective conclusion from their more aggressive statements by the use of such qualifying distinctions.

One man's tension is another man's contradiction. Rome is no longer the Rome of modernist tendencies, it is firmly and fully modernist.
Those who still believe that it is Catholic with a few bad habits have been overtaken by the objective reality of a firmly established institutionalized conciliar structure which by any objective measure is not Catholic.

Distinguishing between the Church and the conciliar entity, one is Catholic, the other is not. I no longer allow subjective considerations to create any tension between the two. The conciliar church might still be half pregnant according to the R&Rists, but that is their business and their problem.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Graham on September 03, 2015, 08:13:43 PM
Quote from: Nishant
2. But here again, you Resistance folk openly contradict yourselves at every turn. Bishop Williamson himself said that if the Holy Father were to offer him and Resistance priests a unilateral recognition, His Excellency would "be on the next plane to Rome, I'd be on the next plane to Rome!" The posters here, including Graham and others who critiqued this statement, surely remember this.


When you make the effort to single me out you should try to recall what I actually posted. My interpretation of his comment was very different from the divisive spin you gave it.

Quote from: Graham
Bishop Williamson must be speaking of founding a society. He will not do that without authorization by Rome, and since he will not seek or receive such authorization, he says "get used to" the idea of a loose cooperation under his moral authority.


Quote from: Graham
A few posters, attempting to defend Bp. Williamson's ill-framed remarks, seem to have inadvertently stated that a practical agreement sans doctrinal resolution is actually acceptable, contrary to everything the Resistance has been saying for 2+years. Another has reaffirmed the myth that traditionalists are in an "irregular" position in relation to Modernist Rome. We must reject these notions.


Quote from: Graham
Quote from: Nishant
I listened to a bit of a sermon, and it is excellent, but I don't think it is consistent with what many Resistance priests have maintained in the course of the earlier back and forth polemics with the Society. His Excellency +Williamson states precisely what the SSPX is stating today, and has always stated, - that if a regularized structure without compromise is possible, it can be accepted for the good of the Church.

Fr. Hewko was cited earlier in this thread and Fr. Chazal likewise said, "Since that fateful month of may 2012 my specific intent has always remained the same : “That the SSPX and the New Rome remain separate until Rome converts”. http://www.therecusant.com/fr-chazal-war-aims A brief Google search shows Fr. Pfeiffer among others who have expressed themselves in a similar way. Just recently, there was an article by the Dominicans of Avrille posted here against His Excellency +Fellay considering even a simple ad-hoc "recognition of tolerance". So how does one maintain that such a hypothetical Roman proposal should absolutely be refused, while thinking a hypothetical Roman proposal for a structure for the Resistance would be a good and acceptable thing?


I maintain that +Williamson is employing an exaggerated rhetorical device to explain his view that ordinary jurisdiction is required to found a religious order. I don't believe he is making a real position statement about his willingness to deal with modernist Rome, since that would contradict especially the last 2+ years of his life in the resistance, and of his teaching before that. Remember that actions speak louder than words.


I add that Dr. David Allen White messaged me at the time, unsolicited, to say that my understanding was correct. Now you are again advancing your misinterpretation of his remarks in another attempt to sow discord among us.

Quote from: Nishant
So what now? Has even that changed? We are going to refuse even a unilateral regularization from the Pope? Incredible. Unheard of. Based on what exactly in Tradition? Is it the dogma that says one must live outside the communion of the Roman Church and Her Sovereign Pontiff in order to please God and find salvation? Anybody who disagrees that the refusal of a unilateral recognition of a society by Rome is ridiculous show me anything - a Pope, a Saint, a Doctor - saying Catholic societies can be indifferent to the will of Rome and the Pope.


This is not actually unilateral, as I remarked upthread. This is bilateral politics through and through. Some "Year of Mercy." Meetings between SSPX and Newrome officials have been intensifying under Francis. For instance, this year, Bp. Fellay revealed that he was given jurisdiction by the pope to decide certain canonical cases; the SSPX in Argentina was legally recognized as part of the Conciliar Church; Newrome sent representatives to SSPX installations, who received the red carpet and made their various favourable reports. With this latest news, I understand, at last, exactly how duplicitous and slimy they will be in pursuing the destruction of the Archbishop's work and the despoiling of their flock's faith.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: AJNC on September 04, 2015, 02:49:14 AM
Quote from: Nishant
1. God bless the Holy Father for this truly paternal gesture. It should be noted at this point that Rome has long recognized tacitly the validity of confessions made by SSPX priests, Bishop Fellay said some years ago, "SSPX priests who confront these cases in the confessional [excommunication in cases ordinarily reserved to the Pope] absolve the penitent from the sin, and from the excommunication. According to Church policy, the priest must then send the case to Rome to be examined, and the excommunication formally lifted. Bishop Fellay says, “Every time – absolutely every time – we have received an answer from Rome that the priest who took care of this confession did well, that it was perfectly in order, and it was both licit and valid.” Rome would then comment on the penance, whether it was sufficient or not enough."

This was reported by CFN, Bishop Fellay gave several other proofs of the same at the time. So, in principle, this is not something entirely new, although it obviously reflects the increasingly evident fact that the Society is clearly regarded as integrally Catholic by the Roman authorities.

2. But here again, you Resistance folk openly contradict yourselves at every turn. Bishop Williamson himself said that if the Holy Father were to offer him and Resistance priests a unilateral recognition, His Excellency would "be on the next plane to Rome, I'd be on the next plane to Rome!" The posters here, including Graham and others who critiqued this statement, surely remember this.

So what now? Has even that changed? We are going to refuse even a unilateral regularization from the Pope? Incredible. Unheard of. Based on what exactly in Tradition? Is it the dogma that says one must live outside the communion of the Roman Church and Her Sovereign Pontiff in order to please God and find salvation? Anybody who disagrees that the refusal of a unilateral recognition of a society by Rome is ridiculous show me anything - a Pope, a Saint, a Doctor - saying Catholic societies can be indifferent to the will of Rome and the Pope.

3. A final word on delegated or supplied jurisdiction. Supplied jurisdiction is a delegatio a iure, a delegation operative by the law itself. In a similar manner to how a Pope may send an Apostolic delegate granting him faculties to absolve only in certain specific cases, the law itself, by the tacit consent of the lawgiver, automatically delegates the said power to priests in certain extraordinary circuмstances, most notably the danger of death of the penitent.

Here is Fr. Miaskiewickz explain that even supplied jurisdiction depends on the Pope, "Supplied jurisdiction, then, is a jurisdiction, be it ordinary or delegated, which is bestowed in an extraordinary manner, without any formality, even perchance to people who are unfit and unworthy ... the Supreme Pontiff, from whom all jurisdiction emanates and from whom all common law has its origin, supplies the necessary jurisdiction." Supplied or automatically delegated jurisdiction is not independent of the will of the Sovereign Pontiff, the supreme lawgiver, on the contrary, it depends on at least his tacit consent.

Whether we like it or not, Christ our Lord founded the Church in such a way that all authority, or jurisdiction, "rolls downward" from the Pope, to the bishops appointed by him, the priests sent by him, the faithful governed by them in communion with him. All authority comes from Rome in the Catholic Church. Period.


4. The icing on this cake will be an invitation from His Holiness the Sovereign Pontiff to Bishop Fellay to concelebrate with him the New Mass that kicks off the "Mercy Year", in the company of the Boffs et al.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Meg on September 04, 2015, 03:12:24 PM
I, for one, am hoping that Bp. Williamson will provide his thoughts on this issue. I trust that his analysis will be well-thought-out, and will put the situation into a proper Catholic perspective.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: AJNC on September 10, 2015, 10:17:33 PM
Quote from: obediens
Have at it, folks.  :popcorn:

"A final consideration concerns those faithful who for various reasons choose to attend churches officiated by priests of the Fraternity of St Pius X. This Jubilee Year of Mercy excludes no one. From various quarters, several Brother Bishops have told me of their good faith and sacramental practice, combined however with an uneasy situation from the pastoral standpoint. I trust that in the near future solutions may be found to recover full communion with the priests and superiors of the Fraternity. In the meantime, motivated by the need to respond to the good of these faithful, through my own disposition, I establish that those who during the Holy Year of Mercy approach these priests of the Fraternity of St Pius X to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation shall validly and licitly receive the absolution of their sins."

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/09/urgent-pope-francis-grants-absolution.html


So that the SSPX would not criticize his Motu Proprio on the Annulment of Marriage, which was to follow this supposed act of mercy of his, just a few days later. His strategy has obviously worked!
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 11, 2015, 06:18:38 AM
Quote from: Meg
I, for one, am hoping that Bp. Williamson will provide his thoughts on this issue. I trust that his analysis will be well-thought-out, and will put the situation into a proper Catholic perspective.


Given he didn't mention it at all in his last EC, perhaps he'll provide his thoughts in the next?
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 11, 2015, 06:20:21 AM
Quote from: AJNC
Quote from: obediens
Have at it, folks.  :popcorn:

"A final consideration concerns those faithful who for various reasons choose to attend churches officiated by priests of the Fraternity of St Pius X. This Jubilee Year of Mercy excludes no one. From various quarters, several Brother Bishops have told me of their good faith and sacramental practice, combined however with an uneasy situation from the pastoral standpoint. I trust that in the near future solutions may be found to recover full communion with the priests and superiors of the Fraternity. In the meantime, motivated by the need to respond to the good of these faithful, through my own disposition, I establish that those who during the Holy Year of Mercy approach these priests of the Fraternity of St Pius X to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation shall validly and licitly receive the absolution of their sins."

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/09/urgent-pope-francis-grants-absolution.html


So that the SSPX would not criticize his Motu Proprio on the Annulment of Marriage, which was to follow this supposed act of mercy of his, just a few days later. His strategy has obviously worked!


That's a good point.  I haven't heard anything from the SSPX about this annulment reform.  I've actually heard more from Novus Ordites.

Edit:  Actually, I just did a google "SSPX Francis annulment" and it brought up an article from the SSPX but I was denied access to the page.  Verrrrrrry interesting.  What *is* going on?
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: TKGS on September 11, 2015, 06:39:58 AM
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: AJNC
So that the SSPX would not criticize his Motu Proprio on the Annulment of Marriage, which was to follow this supposed act of mercy of his, just a few days later. His strategy has obviously worked!


That's a good point.  I haven't heard anything from the SSPX about this annulment reform.  I've actually heard more from Novus Ordites.

Edit:  Actually, I just did a google "SSPX Francis annulment" and it brought up an article from the SSPX but I was denied access to the page.  Verrrrrrry interesting.  What *is* going on?


I thought, perhaps, this might have simply been an individual problem with your computer or connection so I did the same thing.  When I click on the link:

http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/get-your-annulment-quick-10576

The page that comes up says:  Access denied.  You are not authorized to access this page.

SSPX.org has never been a subscription only website.  Evidently, someone posted a commentary but someone else said, "Wait a minute here!  We can't publish that!"  And the webpage was removed from public access though, interestingly, it was not simply deleted.  Something is indeed queer.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: compline on September 11, 2015, 06:50:41 AM
Quote from: TKGS


I thought, perhaps, this might have simply been an individual problem with your computer or connection so I did the same thing.  When I click on the link:

http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/get-your-annulment-quick-10576

The page that comes up says:  Access denied.  You are not authorized to access this page.

SSPX.org has never been a subscription only website.  Evidently, someone posted a commentary but someone else said, "Wait a minute here!  We can't publish that!"  And the webpage was removed from public access though, interestingly, it was not simply deleted.  Something is indeed queer.


That page name (get your annulment quick) makes it sound like an article that was negative towards the annulment process in the church. Maybe it was taken down in an effort to reduce criticism towards the powers that be?

As an aside, lots of website admins unpublish pages rather than delete them. Heck, CathInfo even does that. For example, this topic (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Where-are-these-priests-today) was unpublished by Matthew rather than being deleted, for whatever reasons he might have had. I don't think it's always nefarious to do so.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 11, 2015, 06:52:20 AM
Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: AJNC
So that the SSPX would not criticize his Motu Proprio on the Annulment of Marriage, which was to follow this supposed act of mercy of his, just a few days later. His strategy has obviously worked!


That's a good point.  I haven't heard anything from the SSPX about this annulment reform.  I've actually heard more from Novus Ordites.

Edit:  Actually, I just did a google "SSPX Francis annulment" and it brought up an article from the SSPX but I was denied access to the page.  Verrrrrrry interesting.  What *is* going on?


I thought, perhaps, this might have simply been an individual problem with your computer or connection so I did the same thing.  When I click on the link:

http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/get-your-annulment-quick-10576

The page that comes up says:  Access denied.  You are not authorized to access this page.

SSPX.org has never been a subscription only website.  Evidently, someone posted a commentary but someone else said, "Wait a minute here!  We can't publish that!"  And the webpage was removed from public access though, interestingly, it was not simply deleted.  Something is indeed queer.


Yes, that is the error message I received.  
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 11, 2015, 06:54:09 AM
Quote from: compline
Quote from: TKGS


I thought, perhaps, this might have simply been an individual problem with your computer or connection so I did the same thing.  When I click on the link:

http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/get-your-annulment-quick-10576

The page that comes up says:  Access denied.  You are not authorized to access this page.

SSPX.org has never been a subscription only website.  Evidently, someone posted a commentary but someone else said, "Wait a minute here!  We can't publish that!"  And the webpage was removed from public access though, interestingly, it was not simply deleted.  Something is indeed queer.


That page name (get your annulment quick) makes it sound like an article that was negative towards the annulment process in the church. Maybe it was taken down in an effort to reduce criticism towards the powers that be?

As an aside, lots of website admins unpublish pages rather than delete them. Heck, CathInfo even does that. For example, this topic (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Where-are-these-priests-today) was unpublished by Matthew rather than being deleted, for whatever reasons he might have had. I don't think it's always nefarious to do so.


Except one can not find any response by SSPX about Francis' annulments.  Do you really believe that there isn't some nefarious reason?
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 11, 2015, 07:07:08 AM
Here's the current SSPX page listing "news":

http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/all

Not one mention of Francis' reform.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: Stubborn on September 11, 2015, 07:37:36 AM
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: compline
Quote from: TKGS


I thought, perhaps, this might have simply been an individual problem with your computer or connection so I did the same thing.  When I click on the link:

http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/get-your-annulment-quick-10576

The page that comes up says:  Access denied.  You are not authorized to access this page.

SSPX.org has never been a subscription only website.  Evidently, someone posted a commentary but someone else said, "Wait a minute here!  We can't publish that!"  And the webpage was removed from public access though, interestingly, it was not simply deleted.  Something is indeed queer.


That page name (get your annulment quick) makes it sound like an article that was negative towards the annulment process in the church. Maybe it was taken down in an effort to reduce criticism towards the powers that be?

As an aside, lots of website admins unpublish pages rather than delete them. Heck, CathInfo even does that. For example, this topic (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Where-are-these-priests-today) was unpublished by Matthew rather than being deleted, for whatever reasons he might have had. I don't think it's always nefarious to do so.


Except one can not find any response by SSPX about Francis' annulments.  Do you really believe that there isn't some nefarious reason?


It says access denied for me too but you can still get a it cached: here (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7j_0yPQxjNUJ:sspx.org/en/news-events/news/get-your-annulment-quick-10576+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

The article doesn't say anything, nothing worth anything anyway.


(http://sspx.org/sites/sspx/files/styles/news_big/public/news/pope-francis-meeting-with-roman-rota460.jpg?itok=-f2r9-vW)
Pope Francis has just announced a new and streamlined annulment procedure, but is it open to abuse?

Image above: Pope Francis meets with auditors of the Apostolic Tribunal of the Roman Rota.

A revised procedure for granting annulments was published on September 8th during a press conference at the Vatican. Published under the title of Mitis Judex Dominus Jesus (“The Gentle Judge, the Lord Jesus”),[1] Pope Francis states that his “concern for the salvation of souls”[2] motivated him to enact these changes.

An annulment is a “declaration of nullity” which affirms that a bond of marriage never existed between a couple in the first place. The moral certitude of such a declaration must be based upon the review by ecclesiastical judges of the submitted evidence and testimony. Following a declaration of nullity, the parties have the right to marry others with the Church’s blessing if there is no canonical impediment (a circuмstance that would forbid matrimony).

Pope Francis’ revision “has substantially altered” a time-proven juridical process and could possibly serve as a “springboard for potential abuse”.[3] The most disconcerting alteration to the annulment process is the removal of the “double confirming sentence,” meaning that a second judgment of nullity was required before the nullity was settled—a safeguard intended to ensure with moral certitude that the marriage bond had never existed.

It was this very point of the traditional juridical process that Cardinal Raymond Burke (former head of the Apostolic Signature, the Church’s “Supreme Court”) defended in the book, Remaining in the Truth of Christ, while citing the chaotic situation which held sway in American dioceses during the ‘70s and ‘80s when this crucial step was de facto omitted.  

We will soon be offering a more in-depth commentary on the problems with Mitis Judex Dominus Jesus.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 11, 2015, 08:12:45 AM
We will soon be offering a more in-depth commentary on the problems with Mitis Judex Dominus Jesus.

OK, so we shall see.  I'm guessing it will be a fairly tempered criticism.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: JPM on September 14, 2015, 09:30:42 AM
Quote from: 2Vermont
We will soon be offering a more in-depth commentary on the problems with Mitis Judex Dominus Jesus.

OK, so we shall see.  I'm guessing it will be a fairly tempered criticism.


Here it is: Has Catholic Divorce Arrived? (http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/has-catholic-divorce-arrived)
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: covet truth on September 14, 2015, 02:51:44 PM


Quote from: JPM
Quote from: 2Vermont
We will soon be offering a more in-depth commentary on the problems with Mitis Judex Dominus Jesus.

OK, so we shall see.  I'm guessing it will be a fairly tempered criticism.


Here it is: Has Catholic Divorce Arrived? (http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/has-catholic-divorce-arrived)



SSPX.ORG is grateful to the Rorate Caeli blog for allowing us to republish their English version of Prof. Roberto de Mattei's piece about Pope Francis' motu proprio on the streamlined annulment process.

This infuriates me because the SSPX cannot seem to come up with their own commentary on this debacle.  Instead they are "grateful" to rely on Rorate Caeli which is an Ecclesia Dei website for an article written by Dr. Mattei whose only objection to Vatican II is that it has been "misinterpreted".  I'm not saying that Dr. Mattei doesn't write some good articles because he does but isn't this just another tactic of the SSPX to present a Novus Ordo website in a positive light to the unsuspecting laity?  


Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: TKGS on September 14, 2015, 04:57:04 PM
Quote from: covet truth
SSPX.ORG is grateful to the Rorate Caeli blog for allowing us to republish their English version of Prof. Roberto de Mattei's piece about Pope Francis' motu proprio on the streamlined annulment process.

This infuriates me because the SSPX cannot seem to come up with their own commentary on this debacle.  Instead they are "grateful" to rely on Rorate Caeli which is an Ecclesia Dei website for an article written by Dr. Mattei whose only objection to Vatican II is that it has been "misinterpreted".  I'm not saying that Dr. Mattei doesn't write some good articles because he does but isn't this just another tactic of the SSPX to present a Novus Ordo website in a positive light to the unsuspecting laity?  


SSPX cannot come up with their own commentary because the SSPX has effectively silenced all of their best writers and all of them who actually provided relevant and insightful commentary.  I haven't heard from Fr. Peter Scott (I think that's his name) in years.  Of course, we know what happened to Bishop Williamson (though I think his commentary has become more disjointed in recent months).  And the SSPX is now censoring Archishop Lefebvre.

The problem is that those writers were apt to publish articles that seriously put in doubt the coming reconciliation.  (Fr. Scott's doubts about the Modernist rites of Orders is probably especially unhelpful.)
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: 2Vermont on September 14, 2015, 05:07:35 PM
Quote from: covet truth


Quote from: JPM
Quote from: 2Vermont
We will soon be offering a more in-depth commentary on the problems with Mitis Judex Dominus Jesus.

OK, so we shall see.  I'm guessing it will be a fairly tempered criticism.


Here it is: Has Catholic Divorce Arrived? (http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/has-catholic-divorce-arrived)



SSPX.ORG is grateful to the Rorate Caeli blog for allowing us to republish their English version of Prof. Roberto de Mattei's piece about Pope Francis' motu proprio on the streamlined annulment process.

This infuriates me because the SSPX cannot seem to come up with their own commentary on this debacle.  Instead they are "grateful" to rely on Rorate Caeli which is an Ecclesia Dei website for an article written by Dr. Mattei whose only objection to Vatican II is that it has been "misinterpreted".  I'm not saying that Dr. Mattei doesn't write some good articles because he does but isn't this just another tactic of the SSPX to present a Novus Ordo website in a positive light to the unsuspecting laity?  




(1)  Guess the SSPX never did offer an in-depth commentary (at least not their own).

(2)  Seems the SSPX knows exactly who they are lining up with these days.  We just see more and more evidence that the SPPX will capitulate and "reconcile" with the Frauds.
Title: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
Post by: JPaul on September 14, 2015, 07:40:01 PM
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: covet truth


Quote from: JPM
Quote from: 2Vermont
We will soon be offering a more in-depth commentary on the problems with Mitis Judex Dominus Jesus.

OK, so we shall see.  I'm guessing it will be a fairly tempered criticism.


Here it is: Has Catholic Divorce Arrived? (http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/has-catholic-divorce-arrived)



SSPX.ORG is grateful to the Rorate Caeli blog for allowing us to republish their English version of Prof. Roberto de Mattei's piece about Pope Francis' motu proprio on the streamlined annulment process.

This infuriates me because the SSPX cannot seem to come up with their own commentary on this debacle.  Instead they are "grateful" to rely on Rorate Caeli which is an Ecclesia Dei website for an article written by Dr. Mattei whose only objection to Vatican II is that it has been "misinterpreted".  I'm not saying that Dr. Mattei doesn't write some good articles because he does but isn't this just another tactic of the SSPX to present a Novus Ordo website in a positive light to the unsuspecting laity?  




(1)  Guess the SSPX never did offer an in-depth commentary (at least not their own).

(2)  Seems the SSPX knows exactly who they are lining up with these days.  We just see more and more evidence that the SPPX will capitulate and "reconcile" with the Frauds.


..........Is that someone singing "already gone".......................or is it "slippin' into darkness".............?