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Author Topic: Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy  (Read 36718 times)

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Offline covet truth

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Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
« Reply #120 on: September 03, 2015, 01:54:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: covet truth
    Nishant and Ladislaus can rejoice ...


     :cheers:


    That reminds me of a song which begins with:  

    "In heaven there ain't no beer, that's why we drink it here....."

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #121 on: September 03, 2015, 01:59:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: covet truth
    Ladislaus can rejoice in the coming union of the SSPX and Rome when the past 40 years of resistance will become a footnote in the history books and the name of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre will be erased altogether.  Altogether now: "Mea culpa, Mea culpa, Mea maxima culpa!"  


    Well, what do you expect from a guy, Ladislaus, who expressed the biggest logical fallacy in CathInfo history when stating, “God is not a Catholic God”, :facepalm: while saying, “Only Catholics can be saved”.  How can the heresy of the former be reconciled with the truth of the latter? It can’t…  


    Offline covet truth

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #122 on: September 03, 2015, 02:11:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: ascent
    Quote from: covet truth
    Ladislaus can rejoice in the coming union of the SSPX and Rome when the past 40 years of resistance will become a footnote in the history books and the name of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre will be erased altogether.  Altogether now: "Mea culpa, Mea culpa, Mea maxima culpa!"  


    Well, what do you expect from a guy, Ladislaus, who expressed the biggest logical fallacy in CathInfo history when stating, “God is not a Catholic God”, :facepalm: while saying, “Only Catholics can be saved”.  How can the heresy of the former be reconciled with the truth of the latter? It can’t…  


    Oh, I wouldn't bother Ladislaus.  He's too busy toasting to the demise of the SSPX of Archbishop Lefebvre.  Drinking and logic have little in common.

    Offline Graham

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #123 on: September 03, 2015, 07:04:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: J.Paul
    All of this mixup and confusion comes from conflating the Catholic Church with the conciliar church. The false belief that something Catholic can be non-Catholic at the same time. As Neil quoted somewhere, this kind of thought  quickly  leads to the end of sound thinking and ruin.


    But isn't that the R&R view as well as the SSPX view?

    Yes


    No, it absolutely is not. What can be said is that, due to R&R's sedeplenism, there is a tension in the distinction between Conciliar and Catholic - but the distinction certainly is integral to the "classic" R&R position. Read, learn:

    Quote from: John Lane
    On countless occasions, in sermons and addresses, in docuмents and books, and in conversation, Archbishop Lefebvre distinguished the
     Conciliar Church from the Catholic Church.


    http://strobertbellarmine.net/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Conciliar_Church.pdf

    The Neo-SSPX, however, Bp. Fellay and Fr. Pfluger in their sermons and conferences, have sought to blur this distinction.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #124 on: September 03, 2015, 07:08:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Graham
    Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: J.Paul
    All of this mixup and confusion comes from conflating the Catholic Church with the conciliar church. The false belief that something Catholic can be non-Catholic at the same time. As Neil quoted somewhere, this kind of thought  quickly  leads to the end of sound thinking and ruin.


    But isn't that the R&R view as well as the SSPX view?

    Yes


    No, it absolutely is not. What can be said is that, due to R&R's sedeplenism, there is a tension in the distinction between Conciliar and Catholic - but the distinction certainly is integral to the "classic" R&R position. Read, learn:

    Quote from: John Lane
    On countless occasions, in sermons and addresses, in docuмents and books, and in conversation, Archbishop Lefebvre distinguished the
     Conciliar Church from the Catholic Church.


    http://strobertbellarmine.net/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Conciliar_Church.pdf

    The Neo-SSPX, however, Bp. Fellay and Fr. Pfluger in their sermons and conferences, have sought to blur this distinction.



    Eh, given Bishop Williamson's recent comments about the Novus Ordo "mass" I wouldn't be so quick to leave the R&R out of this.


    Offline JPaul

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #125 on: September 03, 2015, 07:57:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: Graham
    Quote from: J.Paul
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: J.Paul
    All of this mixup and confusion comes from conflating the Catholic Church with the conciliar church. The false belief that something Catholic can be non-Catholic at the same time. As Neil quoted somewhere, this kind of thought  quickly  leads to the end of sound thinking and ruin.


    But isn't that the R&R view as well as the SSPX view?

    Yes


    No, it absolutely is not. What can be said is that, due to R&R's sedeplenism, there is a tension in the distinction between Conciliar and Catholic - but the distinction certainly is integral to the "classic" R&R position. Read, learn:

    Quote from: John Lane
    On countless occasions, in sermons and addresses, in docuмents and books, and in conversation, Archbishop Lefebvre distinguished the
     Conciliar Church from the Catholic Church.


    http://strobertbellarmine.net/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Conciliar_Church.pdf

    The Neo-SSPX, however, Bp. Fellay and Fr. Pfluger in their sermons and conferences, have sought to blur this distinction.


    I have read most of the Archbishops quotes, so there was nothing new to learn there. The Archbishop's distinctions could at one time or another be elastic as is the R&R position. Both avoid drawing an objective conclusion from their more aggressive statements by the use of such qualifying distinctions.

    One man's tension is another man's contradiction. Rome is no longer the Rome of modernist tendencies, it is firmly and fully modernist.
    Those who still believe that it is Catholic with a few bad habits have been overtaken by the objective reality of a firmly established institutionalized conciliar structure which by any objective measure is not Catholic.

    Distinguishing between the Church and the conciliar entity, one is Catholic, the other is not. I no longer allow subjective considerations to create any tension between the two. The conciliar church might still be half pregnant according to the R&Rists, but that is their business and their problem.

    Offline Graham

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #126 on: September 03, 2015, 08:13:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    2. But here again, you Resistance folk openly contradict yourselves at every turn. Bishop Williamson himself said that if the Holy Father were to offer him and Resistance priests a unilateral recognition, His Excellency would "be on the next plane to Rome, I'd be on the next plane to Rome!" The posters here, including Graham and others who critiqued this statement, surely remember this.


    When you make the effort to single me out you should try to recall what I actually posted. My interpretation of his comment was very different from the divisive spin you gave it.

    Quote from: Graham
    Bishop Williamson must be speaking of founding a society. He will not do that without authorization by Rome, and since he will not seek or receive such authorization, he says "get used to" the idea of a loose cooperation under his moral authority.


    Quote from: Graham
    A few posters, attempting to defend Bp. Williamson's ill-framed remarks, seem to have inadvertently stated that a practical agreement sans doctrinal resolution is actually acceptable, contrary to everything the Resistance has been saying for 2+years. Another has reaffirmed the myth that traditionalists are in an "irregular" position in relation to Modernist Rome. We must reject these notions.


    Quote from: Graham
    Quote from: Nishant
    I listened to a bit of a sermon, and it is excellent, but I don't think it is consistent with what many Resistance priests have maintained in the course of the earlier back and forth polemics with the Society. His Excellency +Williamson states precisely what the SSPX is stating today, and has always stated, - that if a regularized structure without compromise is possible, it can be accepted for the good of the Church.

    Fr. Hewko was cited earlier in this thread and Fr. Chazal likewise said, "Since that fateful month of may 2012 my specific intent has always remained the same : “That the SSPX and the New Rome remain separate until Rome converts”. http://www.therecusant.com/fr-chazal-war-aims A brief Google search shows Fr. Pfeiffer among others who have expressed themselves in a similar way. Just recently, there was an article by the Dominicans of Avrille posted here against His Excellency +Fellay considering even a simple ad-hoc "recognition of tolerance". So how does one maintain that such a hypothetical Roman proposal should absolutely be refused, while thinking a hypothetical Roman proposal for a structure for the Resistance would be a good and acceptable thing?


    I maintain that +Williamson is employing an exaggerated rhetorical device to explain his view that ordinary jurisdiction is required to found a religious order. I don't believe he is making a real position statement about his willingness to deal with modernist Rome, since that would contradict especially the last 2+ years of his life in the resistance, and of his teaching before that. Remember that actions speak louder than words.


    I add that Dr. David Allen White messaged me at the time, unsolicited, to say that my understanding was correct. Now you are again advancing your misinterpretation of his remarks in another attempt to sow discord among us.

    Quote from: Nishant
    So what now? Has even that changed? We are going to refuse even a unilateral regularization from the Pope? Incredible. Unheard of. Based on what exactly in Tradition? Is it the dogma that says one must live outside the communion of the Roman Church and Her Sovereign Pontiff in order to please God and find salvation? Anybody who disagrees that the refusal of a unilateral recognition of a society by Rome is ridiculous show me anything - a Pope, a Saint, a Doctor - saying Catholic societies can be indifferent to the will of Rome and the Pope.


    This is not actually unilateral, as I remarked upthread. This is bilateral politics through and through. Some "Year of Mercy." Meetings between SSPX and Newrome officials have been intensifying under Francis. For instance, this year, Bp. Fellay revealed that he was given jurisdiction by the pope to decide certain canonical cases; the SSPX in Argentina was legally recognized as part of the Conciliar Church; Newrome sent representatives to SSPX installations, who received the red carpet and made their various favourable reports. With this latest news, I understand, at last, exactly how duplicitous and slimy they will be in pursuing the destruction of the Archbishop's work and the despoiling of their flock's faith.

    Offline AJNC

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #127 on: September 04, 2015, 02:49:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    1. God bless the Holy Father for this truly paternal gesture. It should be noted at this point that Rome has long recognized tacitly the validity of confessions made by SSPX priests, Bishop Fellay said some years ago, "SSPX priests who confront these cases in the confessional [excommunication in cases ordinarily reserved to the Pope] absolve the penitent from the sin, and from the excommunication. According to Church policy, the priest must then send the case to Rome to be examined, and the excommunication formally lifted. Bishop Fellay says, “Every time – absolutely every time – we have received an answer from Rome that the priest who took care of this confession did well, that it was perfectly in order, and it was both licit and valid.” Rome would then comment on the penance, whether it was sufficient or not enough."

    This was reported by CFN, Bishop Fellay gave several other proofs of the same at the time. So, in principle, this is not something entirely new, although it obviously reflects the increasingly evident fact that the Society is clearly regarded as integrally Catholic by the Roman authorities.

    2. But here again, you Resistance folk openly contradict yourselves at every turn. Bishop Williamson himself said that if the Holy Father were to offer him and Resistance priests a unilateral recognition, His Excellency would "be on the next plane to Rome, I'd be on the next plane to Rome!" The posters here, including Graham and others who critiqued this statement, surely remember this.

    So what now? Has even that changed? We are going to refuse even a unilateral regularization from the Pope? Incredible. Unheard of. Based on what exactly in Tradition? Is it the dogma that says one must live outside the communion of the Roman Church and Her Sovereign Pontiff in order to please God and find salvation? Anybody who disagrees that the refusal of a unilateral recognition of a society by Rome is ridiculous show me anything - a Pope, a Saint, a Doctor - saying Catholic societies can be indifferent to the will of Rome and the Pope.

    3. A final word on delegated or supplied jurisdiction. Supplied jurisdiction is a delegatio a iure, a delegation operative by the law itself. In a similar manner to how a Pope may send an Apostolic delegate granting him faculties to absolve only in certain specific cases, the law itself, by the tacit consent of the lawgiver, automatically delegates the said power to priests in certain extraordinary circuмstances, most notably the danger of death of the penitent.

    Here is Fr. Miaskiewickz explain that even supplied jurisdiction depends on the Pope, "Supplied jurisdiction, then, is a jurisdiction, be it ordinary or delegated, which is bestowed in an extraordinary manner, without any formality, even perchance to people who are unfit and unworthy ... the Supreme Pontiff, from whom all jurisdiction emanates and from whom all common law has its origin, supplies the necessary jurisdiction." Supplied or automatically delegated jurisdiction is not independent of the will of the Sovereign Pontiff, the supreme lawgiver, on the contrary, it depends on at least his tacit consent.

    Whether we like it or not, Christ our Lord founded the Church in such a way that all authority, or jurisdiction, "rolls downward" from the Pope, to the bishops appointed by him, the priests sent by him, the faithful governed by them in communion with him. All authority comes from Rome in the Catholic Church. Period.


    4. The icing on this cake will be an invitation from His Holiness the Sovereign Pontiff to Bishop Fellay to concelebrate with him the New Mass that kicks off the "Mercy Year", in the company of the Boffs et al.


    Offline Meg

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    « Reply #128 on: September 04, 2015, 03:12:24 PM »
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  • I, for one, am hoping that Bp. Williamson will provide his thoughts on this issue. I trust that his analysis will be well-thought-out, and will put the situation into a proper Catholic perspective.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline AJNC

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    « Reply #129 on: September 10, 2015, 10:17:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: obediens
    Have at it, folks.  :popcorn:

    "A final consideration concerns those faithful who for various reasons choose to attend churches officiated by priests of the Fraternity of St Pius X. This Jubilee Year of Mercy excludes no one. From various quarters, several Brother Bishops have told me of their good faith and sacramental practice, combined however with an uneasy situation from the pastoral standpoint. I trust that in the near future solutions may be found to recover full communion with the priests and superiors of the Fraternity. In the meantime, motivated by the need to respond to the good of these faithful, through my own disposition, I establish that those who during the Holy Year of Mercy approach these priests of the Fraternity of St Pius X to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation shall validly and licitly receive the absolution of their sins."

    http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/09/urgent-pope-francis-grants-absolution.html


    So that the SSPX would not criticize his Motu Proprio on the Annulment of Marriage, which was to follow this supposed act of mercy of his, just a few days later. His strategy has obviously worked!

    Offline 2Vermont

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    « Reply #130 on: September 11, 2015, 06:18:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Meg
    I, for one, am hoping that Bp. Williamson will provide his thoughts on this issue. I trust that his analysis will be well-thought-out, and will put the situation into a proper Catholic perspective.


    Given he didn't mention it at all in his last EC, perhaps he'll provide his thoughts in the next?


    Offline 2Vermont

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    « Reply #131 on: September 11, 2015, 06:20:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: AJNC
    Quote from: obediens
    Have at it, folks.  :popcorn:

    "A final consideration concerns those faithful who for various reasons choose to attend churches officiated by priests of the Fraternity of St Pius X. This Jubilee Year of Mercy excludes no one. From various quarters, several Brother Bishops have told me of their good faith and sacramental practice, combined however with an uneasy situation from the pastoral standpoint. I trust that in the near future solutions may be found to recover full communion with the priests and superiors of the Fraternity. In the meantime, motivated by the need to respond to the good of these faithful, through my own disposition, I establish that those who during the Holy Year of Mercy approach these priests of the Fraternity of St Pius X to celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation shall validly and licitly receive the absolution of their sins."

    http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/09/urgent-pope-francis-grants-absolution.html


    So that the SSPX would not criticize his Motu Proprio on the Annulment of Marriage, which was to follow this supposed act of mercy of his, just a few days later. His strategy has obviously worked!


    That's a good point.  I haven't heard anything from the SSPX about this annulment reform.  I've actually heard more from Novus Ordites.

    Edit:  Actually, I just did a google "SSPX Francis annulment" and it brought up an article from the SSPX but I was denied access to the page.  Verrrrrrry interesting.  What *is* going on?

    Offline TKGS

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #132 on: September 11, 2015, 06:39:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: AJNC
    So that the SSPX would not criticize his Motu Proprio on the Annulment of Marriage, which was to follow this supposed act of mercy of his, just a few days later. His strategy has obviously worked!


    That's a good point.  I haven't heard anything from the SSPX about this annulment reform.  I've actually heard more from Novus Ordites.

    Edit:  Actually, I just did a google "SSPX Francis annulment" and it brought up an article from the SSPX but I was denied access to the page.  Verrrrrrry interesting.  What *is* going on?


    I thought, perhaps, this might have simply been an individual problem with your computer or connection so I did the same thing.  When I click on the link:

    http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/get-your-annulment-quick-10576

    The page that comes up says:  Access denied.  You are not authorized to access this page.

    SSPX.org has never been a subscription only website.  Evidently, someone posted a commentary but someone else said, "Wait a minute here!  We can't publish that!"  And the webpage was removed from public access though, interestingly, it was not simply deleted.  Something is indeed queer.

    Offline compline

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #133 on: September 11, 2015, 06:50:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS


    I thought, perhaps, this might have simply been an individual problem with your computer or connection so I did the same thing.  When I click on the link:

    http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/get-your-annulment-quick-10576

    The page that comes up says:  Access denied.  You are not authorized to access this page.

    SSPX.org has never been a subscription only website.  Evidently, someone posted a commentary but someone else said, "Wait a minute here!  We can't publish that!"  And the webpage was removed from public access though, interestingly, it was not simply deleted.  Something is indeed queer.


    That page name (get your annulment quick) makes it sound like an article that was negative towards the annulment process in the church. Maybe it was taken down in an effort to reduce criticism towards the powers that be?

    As an aside, lots of website admins unpublish pages rather than delete them. Heck, CathInfo even does that. For example, this topic was unpublished by Matthew rather than being deleted, for whatever reasons he might have had. I don't think it's always nefarious to do so.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Francis grants Absolution powers to SSPX Priests for Year of Mercy
    « Reply #134 on: September 11, 2015, 06:52:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: AJNC
    So that the SSPX would not criticize his Motu Proprio on the Annulment of Marriage, which was to follow this supposed act of mercy of his, just a few days later. His strategy has obviously worked!


    That's a good point.  I haven't heard anything from the SSPX about this annulment reform.  I've actually heard more from Novus Ordites.

    Edit:  Actually, I just did a google "SSPX Francis annulment" and it brought up an article from the SSPX but I was denied access to the page.  Verrrrrrry interesting.  What *is* going on?


    I thought, perhaps, this might have simply been an individual problem with your computer or connection so I did the same thing.  When I click on the link:

    http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/get-your-annulment-quick-10576

    The page that comes up says:  Access denied.  You are not authorized to access this page.

    SSPX.org has never been a subscription only website.  Evidently, someone posted a commentary but someone else said, "Wait a minute here!  We can't publish that!"  And the webpage was removed from public access though, interestingly, it was not simply deleted.  Something is indeed queer.


    Yes, that is the error message I received.