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Offline SeanJohnson

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Francis Clamps Down Harder
« on: February 21, 2023, 02:03:29 PM »
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  • BREAKING: Pope Francis issues new docuмent limiting the powers of bishops to allow the Latin Mass in their diocese

    The new docuмent was confirmed by Pope Francis and signed by Cardinal Roche.
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    VATICAN CITY (LifeSiteNews) — Pope Francis has confirmed restrictions on the Traditional Latin Mass today, stating that bishops cannot dispense priests from the Pope’s 2021 docuмent Traditionis custodes, as such power is reserved to the Holy See.

    Francis’ move came via a Rescript issued by the Vatican’s Prefect of the Congregation (now Dicastery) for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (CDW), Cardinal Arthur Roche, February 21.


    During a meeting with Roche the day previously, Francis confirmed that, following Traditionis custodes, certain dispensations are not under the prerogative of the local bishop, but rather are “reserved in a special way to the Apostolic See.”


    These include:

    • Using a parish church to celebrate the traditional Mass using the 1962 Missale Romanum
    • Erecting a new personal parish to celebrate the traditional Mass using the 1962 Missale Romanum
    • Allowing priests ordained after the publication of Traditionis custodes (July 16, 2021) permission to use the 1962 Missale Romanum
    Signed by Roche, the Rescript states that, under the provisions of Article 7 of Traditionis custodes, the CDW “exercises the authority of the Holy See in the above-mentioned cases, supervising the observance of the provisions.”

    If a diocesan bishop has already given dispensations for such cases in his diocese, the CDW ordered that he should now make such details known to the Vatican, after which Roche’s Congregation would “evaluate the individual cases.”


    Quote
    #PopeFrancis has confirmed a Rescript of Cdl. Roche stating that dispensations from Traditionis Custodes are reserved to the Holy See.@Pontifex also re-affirmed Roche’s Dec. 2021 Responsa ad Dubia, which expanded TC’s restrictions on the traditional Mass.https://t.co/pQdv6SGMFS pic.twitter.com/CJPHuBAf3c
    — Michael Haynes 🇻🇦 (@MLJHaynes) February 21, 2023

    December 2021 Responsa confirmed by Pope
    Following the publication of Traditionis custodes and Roche’s subsequent Responsa, some diocesan bishops had invoked Canon 87 §1 in order to allow a parish church to be used for the traditional Mass, since this had been banned under the Pope’s docuмent. By using Canon 87, a bishop can dispense from “universal and particular disciplinary laws” for the faithful in his diocese when he deems that “it contributes to their spiritual good.”


    Defending why a ban on using a parish church had been stipulated in Traditionis Custodes, the 2021 Responsa had stated that: “The exclusion of the parish church is intended to affirm that the celebration of the Eucharist according to the previous rite, being a concession limited to these groups, is not part of the ordinary life of the parish community.” 


    Under the terms of the Responsa, the diocesan bishop must “request” that a parish church can be used, “only if it is established that it is impossible to use another church, oratory or chapel. The assessment of this impossibility must be made with the utmost care.”

    This matter had become a point of contention in recent weeks, as Roche attempted to enforce his will and issued letters to bishops around the world who had made use of Canon 87, informing them that they could not do so.
    In letters revealed by liturgist Dr. Peter Kwasniewski, Roche argued that both Traditionis Custodes and his own Responsa removed this permission from the bishop by reserving such a dispensation only to the Holy See.

    Canon lawyers, however, have argued that such statements have no grounding in the Church’s Canon Law. In a recently published book, Fr. Réginald-Marie Rivoire writes that such a move “not only unduly restricts local Ordinaries’ faculties, substituting itself for the latter in discerning what is a just cause and what is not, but also shows little regard for the fundamental right of the faithful to follow their own rite and spirituality.”


    Speaking under condition of anonymity, a canon lawyer recently told LifeSite that:


    Quote
    because the Responsa ad dubia were not approved in forma specifica, they are not legislation and can only have authority insofar as they interpret the provisions of Traditionis custodes (TC). The points referred to in Roche’s recent letter are that TC states the [traditional] Mass should not be offered in parishes and that it names the CDW and CICLSA [Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life] to exercise authority of Holy See with regards to provisions of TC. But neither statement asserts that dispensations from point of UA [traditional Mass] celebrated in parish churches is reserved to the Holy See and therefore reserved to CDW or CICLSA.

    Continuing, he stated that a diocesan bishop’s right to dispense his faithful from laws, as outlined in Canon 18, remained unaffected:

    Quote
    Hence, in light of canon 18, it is clear that diocesan bishops retain the right to dispense from the relevant provision of TC so that the UA may continue to be offered in designated parish churches. Canon 18 provides that “Laws which establish a penalty, restrict the free exercise of rights, or contain an exception from the law are subject to strict interpretation,” meaning that they should be interpreted so as to preserve as much as possible the freedom of those they affect. Here, that clearly means that diocesan bishops retain their right to dispense from the relevant provision.

    However, in the February 21 Rescript, Francis added his direct confirmation of Roche’s December 2021 Responsa ad dubia.

    Roche stated that “[n]ot only did the Holy Father issue Traditionis custodes he approved the Responsa ad dubia, so there can be no doubt about his wishes in this regard given that it is stated in such a clear way in both docuмents.”


    It seems that the new Rescript appears to have slightly more direct papal approval over the precise text than the Responsa did. The 2021 Responsa states that Pope Francis “was informed of and gave his consent to the publication” of the Responsa.

    But the new Rescript states that Francis “confirmed” the details of the docuмent, and further “confirms – having already expressed his assent in the audience of November 18, 2021 – what was established in the Responsa ad dubia with the attached Explanatory Notes of December 4, 2021.”


    Furthermore, the Pope ordered the Rescript to be published in the Vatican’s daily newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano and in the “official commentary of the Acta Apostolicae Sedis.”


    Responding to the new Rescript, Dr. Joseph Shaw – the Chairman of the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales and President of Una Voce International – described it as “grave news.”


    Quote
    Grave news from the Holy See: Pope Francis has confirmed that Bishops need explicit permission from the Dicastery for Divine Worship for the use of parish churches for the TLM. I.e. they can’t use Canon 87.1.


    Dr. Shaw noted that the CDW, when asked for permission to have the traditional Mass in a parish church, has “typically been restricting the number of locations and giving the permission for only two years.”


    The new Rescript would “affect provision for the TLM very unevenly,” he added, since “in some places finding alternative locations would be easy; in other places, impossible.”


    The Rescript, while further implementing Traditionis custodes, is not the rumored docuмent believed to contain further destructive restrictions upon the traditional Mass.


    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #1 on: February 21, 2023, 02:16:05 PM »
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  • "The Rescript, while further implementing Traditionis custodes, is not the rumored docuмent believed to contain further destructive restrictions upon the traditional Mass."

    This will be the Holy Week release, preclusing even the former Ecclesia Dei institute from ordaining priests according to the traditional Ordinal (or using the old rites for any sacrament besides the Mass).

    If only +Williamson hadn't screwed up the SSPX deal with BXVI (who's biographer, +Ganswein, says wanted to lure away clergy and faithful from them), they might have had the privilege of being included among these edicts.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #2 on: February 21, 2023, 02:45:29 PM »
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  • Bergoglio must know that these actions can potentially lure some of the Conservative and idult Catholics to the Neo-SSPX. I believe he has a surprise in place for the SSSPX. What do you think?

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #3 on: February 21, 2023, 03:09:17 PM »
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  • Bergoglio must know that these actions can potentially lure some of the Conservative and idult Catholics to the Neo-SSPX. I believe he has a surprise in place for the SSSPX. What do you think?

    I have heard from my Resistance "mole" overseas that some believe Rome's plan is to corral all remaining traditionalists into the SSPX. I suppose the rumored personal prelature might happen at that point (this is my own speculation).

    I'm more interested in how diocesan "approved" chapels are going to respond to the situation.  Will they close shop and go full blown rainbow flag kumbayah...or will they breakaway and go rogue?  

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #4 on: February 21, 2023, 03:13:40 PM »
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  • If only +Williamson hadn't screwed up the SSPX deal with BXVI

    Is it possible that the Good Bishop knew the only way to spoil the deal was to play the shoahoax card?  If he did it intentionally as some kind of Samson option....I salute him.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #5 on: February 21, 2023, 03:17:00 PM »
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  • Bergoglio must know that these actions can potentially lure some of the Conservative and idult Catholics to the Neo-SSPX. I believe he has a surprise in place for the SSSPX. What do you think?

    Its an interesting thought:

    Both BXVI and Francis have/had the destruction of Tradition in mind.

    We always knew that.

    We initially thought that Francis simply lost patience with BXVI's "long game."

    BXVI wanted to lure them all into an accord (with SSPX claiming authority of even the exempt traditional religious congregations, so that all of Tradition would be handed to the enemy with a ribbon, and nobody could escape).

    Now I'm starting to wonder whether Francis has deviated from that plan after all:

    The silence of the SSPX is inexplicable, unless one of two things has happened:

    1) They do not oppose Francis's teachings;

    2) They fear to lose something they perceive as a good.

    The 2nd is obviously the choice.

    So what do they hope to gain with their treacherous silence?

    Well, if Francis pushes all conservative/indult "trads" into the folds of the SSPX, then all are once again corralled into a single easily controlled group.

    The influx of refugees will dilute what little tradition remains within the SSPX (effectively they are the foot soldiers of BXVI penetrating the defenses), and Francis can let them continue to work their magic, while the mute SSPX pretends there is no issue).

    When the neo-SSPX is finally as liberal as EWTN, they'll be given a bishop or two (bishops with no teeth, and no opposition to V2).

    But like in the movie The Matrix, the Resistance represents the glitch; the anomaly which, slowly grown must once again be infiltrated and destroyed.  When numbers become sufficiently high enough to take notice (say in 20 years), Rome will come knocking, while their agitators agitate from within.

    The Architect must destroy Zion.  "Rest assured, this will be the third time we have destroyed Zion, and we have become exceedingly effecient at it."

    Campos, Menzingen...Morannes?

    Cardinal Cottier was a diabolical genius, and Rome has not forgotten his sage advice.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #6 on: February 21, 2023, 03:22:05 PM »
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  • If he manages to wrest control of the SSPX, there’s always SSPV, MCRI, lots of independent priests scattered here and there.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #7 on: February 21, 2023, 03:33:57 PM »
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  • Well, if Francis pushes all conservative/indult "trads" into the folds of the SSPX, then all are once again corralled into a single easily controlled group.

    The influx of refugees will dilute what little tradition remains within the SSPX (effectively they are the foot soldiers of BXVI penetrating the defenses), and Francis can let them continue to work their magic, while the mute SSPX pretends there is no issue).

    I'm also wondering whether this is one of the reasons Francis hasn't cancelled the SSPX's jurisdiction to hear confessions (I.e., the conservatives/indulters do not trust supplied jurisdiction)?

    If the refugees didn't pour into the SSPX, these conciliar footsoldiers coulddn't work their diluting magic upon the SSPX (not that the SSPX hasn't been doing a fine job of capitulation on their own).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #8 on: February 21, 2023, 03:39:13 PM »
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  • Its an interesting thought:

    Both BXVI and Francis have/had the destruction of Tradition in mind.

    We always knew that.

    We initially thought that Francis simply lost patience with BXVI's "long game."

    BXVI wanted to lure them all into an accord (with SSPX claiming authority of even the exempt traditional religious congregations, so that all of Tradition would be handed to the enemy with a ribbon, and nobody could escape).

    Now I'm starting to wonder whether Francis has deviated from that plan after all:

    The silence of the SSPX is inexplicable, unless one of two things has happened:

    1) They do not oppose Francis's teachings;

    2) They fear to lose something they perceive as a good.

    The 2nd is obviously the choice.

    So what do they hope to gain with their treacherous silence?

    Well, if Francis pushes all conservative/indult "trads" into the folds of the SSPX, then all are once again corralled into a single easily controlled group.

    The influx of refugees will dilute what little tradition remains within the SSPX (effectively they are the foot soldiers of BXVI penetrating the defenses), and Francis can let them continue to work their magic, while the mute SSPX pretends there is no issue).

    When the neo-SSPX is finally as liberal as EWTN, they'll be given a bishop or two (bishops with no teeth, and no opposition to V2).

    But like in the movie The Matrix, the Resistance represents the glitch; the anomaly which, slowly grown must once again be infiltrated and destroyed.  When numbers become sufficiently high enough to take notice (say in 20 years), Rome will come knocking, while their agitators agitate from within.

    The Architect must destroy Zion.  "Rest assured, this will be the third time we have destroyed Zion, and we have become exceedingly effecient at it."

    Campos, Menzingen...Morannes?

    Cardinal Cottier was a diabolical genius, and Rome has not forgotten his sage advice.


    I’m speculating here, but I think they (the Neo-SSPX ) have remained silent because this way, they can continue attracting the conservative Novus Ordo and Indult Catholics into the fold. If they were to condemn the atrocities Jorge has committed, they would then chase away their new congregation. The SSPX needs new Bishops, and that’s when I think Jorge will pounce.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #9 on: February 21, 2023, 03:46:06 PM »
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  • I’m speculating here, but I think they (the Neo-SSPX ) have remained silent because this way, they can continue attracting the conservative Novus Ordo and Indult Catholics into the fold. If they were to condemn the atrocities Jorge has committed, they would then chase away their new congregation. The SSPX needs new Bishops, and that’s when I think Jorge will pounce.

    Yes, I mostly agree.

    Thing is, Vigano rails against the Roman modernists and the modernist errors, and he isn't scaring away the semi-trads.  Quite the opposite.  

    So it must be somthing else, which you have identified:

    The SSPX wants bishops, which it no longer has the conviction to consecrate without antichrist Bergoglio's permission.  How much further will it prostitute itself to obtain them?  
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #10 on: February 21, 2023, 03:47:39 PM »
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  • I have noticed where I live that the Indult mass goers have gone incognito. Before Bergoglio, they had a significant presence in the media; they would stream their masses, etc. After TC  nothing, they are terrified and only come out on Sundays for mass.


    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #11 on: February 21, 2023, 03:50:02 PM »
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  • Yes, I mostly agree.

    Thing is, Vigano rails against the Roman modernists and the modernist errors, and he isn't scaring away the semi-trads.  Quite the opposite. 

    So it must be somthing else, which you have identified:

    The SSPX wants bishops, which it no longer has the conviction to consecrate without antichrist Bergoglio's permission.  How much further will it prostitute itself to obtain them? 

    Yes, that is bizarre, isn't it? Vigano is doing what the SSPX use to do. 

    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #12 on: February 21, 2023, 03:55:15 PM »
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  • Maybe Vigano is acting as a proxy for the SSPX. Perhaps the semi-trends take some comfort in that. I don’t know; the whole thing is diabolical.

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #13 on: February 21, 2023, 04:23:01 PM »
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  • Maybe Vigano is acting as a proxy for the SSPX. Perhaps the semi-trends take some comfort in that. I don’t know; the whole thing is diabolical.
    Need Vigano to get conditionally Consecrated. 
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us

    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Francis Clamps Down Harder
    « Reply #14 on: February 21, 2023, 04:43:33 PM »
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  • Has anyone else stopped going to mass because of all this insanity? I haven't been to mass in about eight months, and it's not because I don't want to go, but since COVID, the SSPX chapel in my county was closed. The only independent Sede chapel in my area has problems, mainly that the priest is never in the confessional, and if you want to go, you have to make an "appointment." I'm not going to the indult. Last week I got tempted(out of desperation) to go to a Novus Ordo confession. I did not go. I'm wondering how much longer this I can take.