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Author Topic: Fr Scotts Replacement  (Read 11836 times)

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Fr Scotts Replacement
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2012, 07:21:18 AM »
Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: Columba
Abstinence before marriage is also culturally alien


No, it isn't culturally alien.  It's widely approved on paper.  And it's a totally different category from arranged marriage.  You're treating arranged marriage as though it's Catholic teaching.  It's not.

Paper schmaper. Abstinence before marriage has become operationally obsolete in youth culture. You are treating arranged marriage as though it's prohibited by Catholic teaching. It's not.

Quote from: Telesphorus
I have heard of tragic, heartbreaking marriages (marriages that kept young lovers apart and resulted in a disastrous union) - and not from neocon propaganda, but from from the sister of a man trapped in such a terrible marriage.

Yes, I have also seen "The King and I" and numerous other silly Hollywood propaganda hit jobs against arranged marriage, but Hollywood is not the arbiter of what is alien to my culture. I never said that all arranged marriages are perfect. However, you notably sidestepped my allusion to statistical evidence that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the vast superiority of arranged marriage over non-arranged.

European Catholics are doomed to extinction unless they can restore those cultural practices that were integral to the building Christendom, such as arranged marriage. Catholic marriage is not the same as Islamic, but it is much less the same as modern-style, birth-dearth Western marriage. Yes, some traditionalist couples are already having large families. Unfortunately there are many, many young trads who cannot find suitable marriage partners or get married too late in life to have many children. What solution do you suggest for getting a large majority of Catholic girls into suitable marriages while they are still young and fertile? Clearly, the current culture of Western marriage is not acceptable.

Quote from: Telesphorus
This idea that parents are going to be selecting mates for girls in America is ludicrous.  If anything, the problem is that parents do not want marriage for their daughters until their daughters have lost their innocence, because of the influence of feminism.

Right, but parents that have grown sick of the feminist dichotomy, in both its liberal and conservative formulations, may wish to return to pre-feminist (i.e. pre-"Enlightenment") forms of courtship, such as arranged courtship. By the way, arranged marriage in the Western tradition is the same as arranged courtship.

Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote
Young women left to themselves are usually attracted to the "bad boy" element. For the most part, Catholic girls suffer the same proclivities.

And you think girls in arranged marriages won't be attracted to those types?  The problem is that women are not looking for marriage.  If marriage were a priority they would behave differently.  The real problem is that the only people these priests and fathers can punish are the "nice guys" - only the nice guys will be vulnerable to their manipulative guilt-tripping, gas-lighting, and lies.

LOL. Yes, most priests, including traditionalists, are just cogs in the feminist machine. Their conservative feminism serves as an essential counterpart to the liberal side of the feminist dichotomy. Bp. Williamson is a notable exception to that unfortunate rule.

Most young women, married or not, are attracted to bad boys. In the West, single girls give their most attractive and fertile years over to a succession of bad boys, until they are too aged and used up for the bad boys to give as much attention as when the girls were in their teens and young twenties. Then they finally make themselves temporarily available for marriage to a nice guy provider. After marriage, they have a couple kids, file for divorce and go back out prowling for bad boys as Sex in the City cougars with expenses paid by the the hapless sucker who was foolish enough to give them a ring.

If the wife is Catholic enough, she may refrain from divorce, but give her husband hen-peck hell as she continues to struggle with an addiction to bad boys that leaves her secretly pining for previous lovers and tempted by adulterous feelings. In previous times and still today in other cultures, such women were and are considered ruined for marriage.

Arranged marriage (courtship) is a viable alternative to this destructive culture of Western marriage.

Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote
Family involvement in the courtship process helps to protect young ladies from such inherent weakness. The condition of the weaker sex was once widely understood in the West, but such understanding has since become "culturally alien."

There's nothing wrong with family involvement in courtship.  But that's totally different from "arranged marriage."  Family involvement in courtship isn't "culturally alien" either.

I am not talking about Hollywood propaganda characterizations. Real-world arranged marriage is very similar to courtship. Non-arranged courtship is workable in a traditional Catholic society but arrangement is required when there is insufficient supply of suitable candidates within the marriage seeker's circle of acquaintances.

Fr Scotts Replacement
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2012, 07:46:23 AM »
Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: Columba
So your problem is with negative tendencies you perceive within the SSPX, not with practical solutions historically proven effective among Catholics.


What is proven?  "Arranged marriages" in the rest of the world mean that parents decide on the match.  Since the Church teaches that there is a free choice in marriage, trying to return to an old system of parents making matches in when it is culturally alien is not going to fly.  It's cultish.

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Conceivably, the SSPX might use arranged marriage and military schooling for cultish purposes, just as they might use other things such as the faith and the mass. None of these things are inherently evil.


The SSPX has enough troubles with schools as it is.  They don't need kooky priests trying to establish military discipline.

In retrospect, we can see that many forms of schooling that were popular in the past were evil in their consequences.  Particularly the boys boarding school.



well, I know a muslim lady, went to school w/her. Parents could not see us all out together (no, not dating). They arranged a marriage for her sister, the sister and fellow are, 20+ yrs later, still together.......she? married a baptist white guy (she is dark skinned Pakistani) and is divorced......sister has kids, lives in Pakistan and save for droid bombers, living apparently a good life from what I hear.....my friend? single at age 42 and burned on relationships...would add, she is not all that devout a muslim, more born into it and cultural.....


Fr Scotts Replacement
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2012, 07:49:10 AM »
Quote from: Telesphorus
In principle the Church supported free marriage and usually exercised its authority in favor of free marriage choice..


yeah? tell that the the nobles and royals, sometimes arranged marriage prior to or at birth...or when kids in youth.......

Fr Scotts Replacement
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2012, 08:28:13 AM »
Quote from: Belloc
Quote from: Telesphorus
In principle the Church supported free marriage and usually exercised its authority in favor of free marriage choice..


yeah? tell that the the nobles and royals, sometimes arranged marriage prior to or at birth...or when kids in youth.......


The nobles had the power to enforce their will.

The Church teaching is very clear on this.

Fr Scotts Replacement
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2012, 08:42:27 AM »
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Paper schmaper. Abstinence before marriage has become operationally obsolete in youth culture.


Arranged marriage has been obsolete in this society for a very long time.  You're comparing totally different matters.  Even if I were to concede that few believed and even fewer practiced waiting for marriage, that's something that's changed relatively recently.  And most importantly, it's IRRELEVANT.  Arranged marriage is not something the Church teaches.  Which is why it's bizarre that it's encouraged, when there is absolutely no possibility of social support for it among Catholics, unless they submit to a cult regime.  

It's possible to raise children to believe in waiting until marriage.  It's not possible to raise them to submit to an arranged marriage, unless they are in a cult, not for Catholics in this country.  And it's not possible to try to enforce it.

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You are treating arranged marriage as though it's prohibited by Catholic teaching. It's not.

 
I've never said it's prohibited for parents to arrange a marriage for their children.  What's morally prohibited is to tell them they're bound to go along with it.  And it would be immoral, gravely immoral for priests to exert any pressure in the confessional for any child to go along with it.