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Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: SeanJohnson on August 27, 2020, 12:44:40 PM

Title: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 27, 2020, 12:44:40 PM
https://nofacemask.blogspot.com/2020/08/fr-isaac-trump-promoting-vaccine.html?m=1 (https://nofacemask.blogspot.com/2020/08/fr-isaac-trump-promoting-vaccine.html?m=1)
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: BarbaraZ on August 27, 2020, 01:51:48 PM
Wow !   Very powerful!
He should be pope!   
I'll be sending this to all my pro Trump friends!    They won't like it, but too bad.

Thanks, Sean!


Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: Cera on August 27, 2020, 02:13:31 PM
One small point.

With all due respect to Father, he needs to get his facts straight. The vaccine does not "contain aborted baby cells." It is made using a cell line derived from electively aborted babies.

The pro-life message is weakened when people are sloppy with the facts.

As to his larger point, I refuse to help the violent revolutionary evil bloodthirsty forces behind Biden win the election.

In good conscience, the only way I can do that is to hold my nose and vote for Trump.
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 27, 2020, 02:38:17 PM
One small point.

With all due respect to Father, he needs to get his facts straight. The vaccine does not "contain aborted baby cells." It is made using a cell line derived from electively aborted babies.

The pro-life message is weakened when people are sloppy with the facts.

As to his larger point, I refuse to help the violent revolutionary evil bloodthirsty forces behind Biden win the election.

In good conscience, the only way I can do that is to hold my nose and vote for Trump.

Can you please explain how a vaccine “made using a cell line derived from electively aborted babies” would represent a vaccine which does not “contain aborted baby cells?”

Would not a cell line “derived from” aborted babies contain fetal cells?

Does not cheese derived from milk still contain milk?

Ps: Add Fr Relaya to the list of those who reject the 2005 Vatican statement permitting the use of abortive vaccines (23:50), where he rejects BXVI’s notion that the murdered babies were killed so long ago, it’s ok to use them now:

Cardinal Burke
++Vigano
+Strickland
Fr. Relaya
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: PAT317 on August 27, 2020, 03:15:23 PM
Ps: Add Fr Relaya to the list of those who reject the 2005 Vatican statement permitting the use of abortive vaccines (23:50), where he rejects BXVI’s notion that the murdered babies were killed so long ago, it’s ok to use them now:

Cardinal Burke
++Vigano
+Strickland
Fr. Relaya
And to this list:

Quote
Let us also remember, as Pastors, that for Catholics it is morally unacceptable to develop or use vaccines derived from material from aborted fetuses.  

.
From the APPEAL FOR THE CHURCH AND THE WORLD to Catholics and all people of good will signed by :

Mgr. Carlo Maria Viganò, Archbishop, Apostolic Nuncio (promoter)
Cdl Joseph Zen Ze-kiun, Bishop emeritus of Hong Kong
Cdl Janis Pujats, Archbishop emeritus of Riga
Cdl Gerhard Ludwig Mueller, Prefect emeritus of Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith
Mgr Luigi Negri, Archbishop emeritus of Ferrara-Comacchio
Mgr Joseph Strickland, Bishop of Tyler, Texas
Mgr Thomas Peta, Metropolitan Archbishop of Astana
Mgr Athanasius Schneider, Auxiliary Bishop of Astana
Mgr Jan Pawel Lenga, Archbishop emeritus of Karaganda
Mgr Rene Henry Gracida, Bishop emeritus of Corpus Christi
Mgr Andreas Laun, Auxiliary Bishop of Salzburg
Mgr Robert Muetsaerts, Auxiliary Bishop of Den Bosch

Father Serafino Lanzetta, theologian
Father Alfredo Maria Morselli, theologian
Father Curzio Nitoglia, theologian
Father Guy Pagès
Father José Arantes de Andrade, Archdiocese of Braga
Father Frank Unterhalt, Communio Veritatis
Father Edmund A Castronovo, parish pastor
Father Jean-Louis Dupré, Diocèse de Saint-Flour
Father Mateusz Mraczek ofs
Father Harold Bumann, ive

Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: Ekim on August 27, 2020, 04:20:42 PM
Reference for aborted fetal cells???  Please???
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 27, 2020, 04:25:14 PM
Reference for aborted fetal cells???  Please???
What?
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: B from A on August 27, 2020, 04:51:18 PM
Reference for aborted fetal cells???  Please???
Are you skeptical that they use aborted fetal cells to develop vaccines?  Or need references to prove it to others? 
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: Cera on August 27, 2020, 05:04:59 PM
Can you please explain how a vaccine “made using a cell line derived from electively aborted babies” would represent a vaccine which does not “contain aborted baby cells?”

Would not a cell line “derived from” aborted babies contain fetal cells?

An analogy would be the Pepsi products which were taste-tested using electively aborted fetal cells.
The Pepsi cola and other products did not actually contain fetal cells, and when this disinfo was spread, people distrusted those who had misinformed them.
The cell lines are used to make many kinds of vaccines, similar to a growth medium. No fetal cells are in the vaccine itself.
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: SeanJohnson on August 27, 2020, 05:17:10 PM
An analogy would be the Pepsi products which were taste-tested using electively aborted fetal cells.
The Pepsi cola and other products did not actually contain fetal cells, and when this disinfo was spread, people distrusted those who had misinformed them.
The cell lines are used to make many kinds of vaccines, similar to a growth medium. No fetal cells are in the vaccine itself.

Thank you for this explanation.

Unfortunately, it is ultimately moot, since the primary moral issue is not that the vaccines “contain aborted fetal matter,” but that they were produced using aborted fetal matter.

Of course, I do understand your purpose was not to defend abortive vaccines, but simply to correct a misunderstanding (which you have succeeded in doing).
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: PAT317 on August 27, 2020, 05:29:21 PM
Thank you for this explanation.

Unfortunately, it is ultimately moot, since the primary moral issue is not that the vaccines “contain aborted fetal matter,” but that they were produced using aborted fetal matter.

Of course, I do understand your purpose was not to defend abortive vaccines, but simply to correct a misunderstanding (which you have succeeded in doing).
I agree with Sean's point, but also, not sure it is correct to say "No fetal cells are in the vaccine itself."
If you look at the CDC's own list of vaccine ingredients (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf), you'll see MRC-5 & WI-38.  

"MRC-5 (Medical Research Council (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Research_Council_(United_Kingdom)) cell strain 5) is a diploid human cell culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_culture) line composed of fibroblasts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibroblast), originally developed from research deriving lung tissue of a 14-week-old aborted Caucasian male fetus."

"WI-38 is a diploid human cell line composed of fibroblasts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibroblast) derived from lung tissue of a 3-month-gestation aborted female fetus."

Sounds like an ingredient to me, if it's in the "ingredient" list.  
It seems like semantics or splitting hairs to me.  

[Of course speaking here of current vaccines, not necessarily a hypothetical Covid-19 vacccine.]
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: PAT317 on August 27, 2020, 05:31:49 PM
For more info:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaMjO2gXaUo&feature=emb_title
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: Ekim on August 27, 2020, 05:36:24 PM
Reference for aborted fetal cells???  Please???
Disregard. I found references specific to Covid-19 after the fact but CI doesn’t allow you to delete your post.
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: Nadir on August 27, 2020, 07:15:23 PM
Reference for aborted fetal cells???  Please???
If you watched the video within the OP you would know about cogforlife.
Father gives the address twice
https://youtu.be/eYuW_3SoLNY
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on August 27, 2020, 10:21:30 PM
Who would trust any new vaccine?  
Why need vaccine when the virus isn’t that bad?   Vaccine equals money. 

Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: Kolar on August 29, 2020, 08:15:14 AM
There was no protest when the Angelus published this from Fr. Scott in 2011.
It seems that if people have a good reason to take the vaccination they do not sin. Good reasons would be you cannot work, travel, shop, visit nursing homes, etc. without it.

May I immunize my children with vaccines developed from cell lines that were originally derived from an aborted fetus?
It is clear that if a Catholic has a choice in the matter, he is bound to choose a vaccine that
is not derived from a fetal cell line, for he does not want any kind of participation in the
crime of a voluntary abortion, even one done nearly 50 years ago. However, this question
has become a very difficult one from the fact that several vaccines are not available in any
other form but that derived from an aborted fetus, in particular rubella (contained in the
MMR), chicken pox and hepatitis A. Is one morally obliged to forgo such a vaccination,
otherwise necessary for health? Also, if one is bound by civil law to receive or give such a
vaccination, must one refuse under pain of sin?
This question was very well resolved by the Pontical Academy for Life in a docuмent
approved by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, dated June 9, 2005. (It
can be viewed at www.cogforlife.org/vaticanresponse.htm). This docuмent makes the
necessary distinctions. The first is between formal and material cooperation. It is never
permitted, for any reason, to cooperate formally in another’s immoral action, in this case
the abortion. Examples of formal cooperation include the staff who willingly help with
the abortion or the original researchers who requested the aborted fetal tissue for their
research. However, those who simply use the products of the cell line do not cooperate
formally in the abortion.
Material cooperation exists when a person shares in some way in an evil action, for example
by taking advantage of its consequences, but without sharing its evil intent. Examples of
material cooperation include the staff who prepare the operating theater or the nurse
who prepares the patient, neither of them knowing the exact nature of the procedure to
be performed. Material cooperation can be immoral if done without sufficient reason, or
moral if done for a good and proportionately grave reason, in proportion to the gravity of
the evil and the proximity of cooperation in it.
The principles of double effect must be applied, namely provided that the good effect (in
this case the use of the vaccine) does not come directly from the bad effect (the murder
of the innocent), but is simply a by-product of this immoral act. Moreover, the material
cooperation can be immediate, as in the nurse who takes care of the patient before or
after the procedure, or it can be mediate because not directly involved in the abortion.
Moreover this mediate material cooperation can also be very remote, and far removed
from the abortion itself, as in the case of those who use vaccines that were developed
from a fetal cell line some 50 years old. In cases of remote material cooperation, it is not
such a grave reason that is required for there to be a proportionate reason for the material
cooperation. This is not to deny the very grave evil of abortion, but simply because the
material cooperation, is extremely far removed from the abortion done so many years ago.
The absence of any other vaccine and the need of the vaccine for one’s health would suffice.
The reason for this given by the above-mentioned docuмent is that in this case, given the
remoteness of the material cooperation, “the duty to avoid passive material cooperation
is not obligatory if there is grave inconvenience.” Danger to health or problems with civil
law constitute such a grave inconvenience.
This being said, the development of vaccines from fetal cell lines is gravely immoral, and
we have the duty to actively oppose it as much as we can, in order to avoid any formal
cooperation. This is how the above mentioned docuмent describes this grave obligation:
therefore, doctors and fathers of families have a duty to take recourse to alternative
vaccines (if they exist), putting pressure on the political authorities and health systems
so that other vaccines without moral problems become available... .they should oppose
by all means... the vaccines which do not yet have morally acceptable alternatives,
creating pressure so that alternative vaccines are prepared, which are not connected
with the abortion of a human fetus....
Nevertheless, it would be excessive and wrong to deny that the material cooperation in
the use of such vaccines is very remote, so that where there is no alternative to such
vaccines, and where the health of children or of the community at large requires it, it is
not only permissible to use such vaccines for which there is no alternative, but sometimes
even obligatory. This would be the case of a woman planning to marry who had never
been vaccinated against rubella and who did not have any natural immunity. It would
be a moral obligation to receive the vaccine, even derived from fetal cell line, in order
to protect her own unborn children from the possibility of serious deformities due to
infection with the rubella virus. Her duty to protect her unborn children is the grave
reason that permits and, where there is no alternative even makes obligatory, the very
remote mediate material cooperation involved.
In the case of routine vaccine of children with MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) there
is certainly no obligation to have the vaccine, since it is not strictly necessary. It would
certainly be best to request the measles and mumps portions separately from the rubella,
thus making a statement of moral principle, and this should be done whenever possible.
However, if the MMR combination is the only one offered, and if one has good reason to
give this vaccine (as is generally the case), then a parent is not to be troubled in conscience
by allowing it to be administered to his children.
Fr. Peter Scott was ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1988. After assignments as seminary professor, U.S.
District Superior, and Rector of Holy Cross Seminary in Goulburn, Australia, he is presently Headmaster
of Our Lady of Mount Carmel Academy in Wilmot, Ontario, Canada.
www.angeluspress.org THE ANGELUS — August/September 2011
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: Yeti on August 29, 2020, 08:31:56 AM
for he does not want any kind of participation in the crime of a voluntary abortion, even one done nearly 50 years ago.
It is impossible to participate in a sin that was committed 50 years ago, in the present time. Not unless you are Arnold Schwarzenegger and reality is one of the Terminator movies. Then it is possible to go back in time to change the present.
Title: Re: Fr. Relaya on Masks, Vaccines, and Trump
Post by: Yeti on August 29, 2020, 08:53:26 AM
... like this:
.