Author Topic: Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes  (Read 2108 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes
« on: March 13, 2014, 09:36:18 PM »
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  • Dear Fr. Pfluger-
    Notes purporting to have been taken by one of the attendees from your
    recent conferences to the Brothers at Flavigny in December are being
    translated and published on the internet in Spanish, English, and French
    (and possibly other languages).
    In justice to you, I would like to ask whether the English-language translation copied below [via The Recusant] substantially reflects your words at these conferences (note that, at the time of this email, the final conference has not yet been translated into English; I believe it is already translated into at least Spanish).  
    If not, could you offer corrections where required, in order that the
    accuracy of your thoughts can be known?
    In Caritas,
    Sean Johnson
    USA
    [1-28-14]

    Dear Mr. Johnson,
    Thank you for your message.
    This is a miserable and also common attack of the Resistance.
    These notes doesn't reflect in no manner what I have said.
    Forget it, it is a poster against Mgr. Fellay
    God bless you
    Do you understand German?
    Fr. Niklaus Pfluger
    [2-6-14]

    Commentary:
     
    1) I post this response in justice to Fr. Pfluger, since I was responsible for having originally Google translated the conferences into English from the Non Possumus website;
     
    2) It was irresponsible of me to have posted a sloppy translation in such grave matters in the first place;
     
    3) Even though The Recusant and Ancien Regime later supplied an accurate translation, I still ought to have verified the contents before re-publishing them;
     
    4) The fact that Fr. Pfluger denies the content contained in the notes of the conferences forces that conclusion;
     
    5) Foreseeably, it will be argued by some that Fr. Pfluger is lieing;
     
    6) Leaving aside the rashness and gravity of making such a public allegation, it should be noted that only the brothers (and others in attendance, if any) are in a position to make that grave allegation;
     
    7) And though these notes purport to be precisely such an account by an attending brother, the fact that the notes were published/divulged by him anonymously harms the credibility of them;
     
    8) It will be countered that, "the brother had to publish them anonymously, otherwise he would be retaliated against."
     
    9) My response to that is, "Man up:"  If he was afraid of suffering the consequences of his posts, he ought not be making the information available.
     
    10) I post in my own name, and am willing to endure the artillery drawn (from both sides, I might add), because the truth is worth telling, and worth suffering for, if it comes to that.
     
    11) It is equally foreseeable that some persons, endowed with limited intellectual horsepower, will construe these words as defending Fr. Pfluger (just as they said I was defending Bishop Fellay when I noted his Doctrinal Declaration was not technically heretical), when in reality I am simply posting his response as an act of justice to him, and giving him the benefit of the doubt, as required by moral theology;
     
    12) Admittedly, it would have been helpful had Fr. Pfluger offered some guidance as to where precisely his thoughts and words have been misrepresented;
     
    13) But as his English is very limited, perhaps this is why he asked me if I understood German?  And since I do not, perhaps this is why he did not offer a point by point rebuttal?
     
    14) In any case, unless one of the Brothers wants to come forward to challenge the veracity of Fr. Pfluger's denial, there is nobody in a position to call into question the latter's honesty
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Ferdinand

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    Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes
    « Reply #1 on: March 13, 2014, 09:53:26 PM »
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  • As truth is at stake... don't wrongly accuse Fr. Pfluger of being an honest man.


    Offline holysoulsacademy

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    Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes
    « Reply #2 on: March 13, 2014, 10:43:36 PM »
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  • +AMDG+
    THURSDAY OF THE FIRST WEEK IN LENT 2014 A.D.

    As a mother of 10, in running my household, I take seriously the salvation of my children's souls as these were the one's entrusted to me by God.  
    I take seriously my role as a wife, as my husband's soul is also entrusted to me through the Sacrament of Marriage.  
    In that respect, when I speak on matters pertaining to the Faith, lives of the Saints, readings from the Missal anything that has to do with the salvation of their souls, I make sure I speak clearly and as much as possible without ambiguity.  
    Where what I would say could be misconstrued and be detrimental to their spiritual life.  
    And it has happened, where what I have said was misunderstood.  
    But then I was quick to come to them and clarify and correct.

    The fact that Fr. Pfluger's statements are not being corrected in a definitive manner, at the detriment of the salvation of souls, is just like the Holy Father when he makes statements that are irreconcilable with the Catholic Faith.
    Wouldn't one who is ordained by God to make sure these souls make it to Heaven want to ascertain that his words would not be misunderstood?  
    And possibly cause a loss of Faith?

    Maybe hiring a full time translator instead of a marketing firm to get their message across correctly would be a wiser investment of the funds donated by many struggling Catholics thinking their money is going to propagate the Faith, not "selling" their "products."

    Offline Frances

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    Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes
    « Reply #3 on: March 14, 2014, 02:03:29 AM »
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  • Quote from: holysoulsacademy
    .
    The fact that Fr. Pfluger's statements are not being corrected in a definitive manner, at the detriment of the salvation of souls, is just like the Holy Father when he makes statements that are irreconcilable with the Catholic Faith.
    Wouldn't one who is ordained by God to make sure these souls make it to Heaven want to ascertain that his words would not be misunderstood?  
    And possibly cause a loss of Faith?

    Maybe hiring a full time translator instead of a marketing firm to get their message across correctly would be a wiser investment of the funds donated by many struggling Catholics thinking their money is going to propagate the Faith, not "selling" their "products."


     :dancing-banana:
    I, too, would very much like to read accurate English translations of sspx materials. While I can stumble through German and know enough French to park in Quebec without getting ticketed or towed, I hardly have time to learn the languages well enough to properly read the originals.  If everything the Resistance is saying is wrong,  accurate translations will reveal folly for what it is.  Thus far, I see no effort in this direction by SSPX headquarters, only continued (ineffective) damage control "after-the-fact," and more commercial marketing.  Dare I propose that most of us care more about finding truth in SSPX publications than glossy covers of muted colours and curved lines of contour?  No reason you can't have both, but something is amiss when the Faith is marketed as a Fluffernutter sandwich on Wonder Bread!  I can get that at my local novus ordo!
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  

    Offline hugeman

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    Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes
    « Reply #4 on: March 14, 2014, 05:13:32 AM »
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  • Dear Sean,
       We are sad for you. You, correctly lets say, took the effort
    to allow Father the opportunity to speak openly and forthrightly
    to very concerned Catholics all across the world; to tell them in plain
    english just exactly what did he say to the brothers. This is an
    unbelieveable podium you offered him; the guy who was one of the prime
    movers behind the expulsion of Bp. Williamson; one of the major supporters
    of Fellay's sneaky dealings with Rome; one of the leading architect's of
    Fellay's pogram of cleansing the SSPX of traditionalists. And this great opportunity
    you hand him to speak honestly and openly to SSPX faithful, you allow him to simply
    dismiss saying: "forget it--it is a manager Fellay detractor!"

    We are sorry, Sean-- but you have drunk the koolaid also. It has nothing at all to do
    With whether Father speaks german or english well; there are plenty of people who could
    translate accurately anything he were to say in almost any language. We just so happen to have
    a bishop who speaks and reads Greman, English, French and several other languages
    fluently. For a Senior manager of a forty five year old corporation with operations
    in over forty countries to hide behind his "german" is despicable-- and for you to let
    him get away with it is revealing.

    Unfortunately, if you were "manning up," as you claim, you would have
    returned the response to Father with the request: " thank you for your response,
    Father; however I am not a Mgr Fellay detractor; please provide me with
    your talk and I will have it faithfully translated into english, for our very interested SSPX
    Faithful to know what important things you believe." Instead,
    Sean, you attack the brother who dared to release the information.Well, Sean, I have a little
    Information for you: do you have any idea why Benedict released his former secretary from prison? I mean, come on! He was caught and convicted dead to rights of releasing tons of the
    Secret documents of Benedict's dirty dealings! And Benedict releases him from prison???
    Maybe, Sean-- just maybe, Benedict knows he's going to die-- and to die with the massive
    Injustice of persecuting whistle-blowers on his head is one thing he wanted to rectify.

    Here-- in this case, you had the golden opportunity to clear up so called "rumours"
    or to clear the "brothers" name, or to clear Fathers fast-dwindling reputation-- and you chose to
    Do nothing, again, but instead , adopt the attitude of SSPX managers and blame the messenger.

    Maybe you'll get your head out of the sand before you join Bergoglio in the great new religion of man-- but it doesn't look too promising. Maybe at least you'll realize it is dishonest to be handing yourself off as a traditionalist and posting on sites like Cath Info.Fellay has plenty of organs you can write for-- you don't
     need to be deceiving those looking for the truth. At one time you appeared solid; however. Something or someone has sucked you in and you now spread their false party line.


    Offline dreamtomorrow

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    Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes
    « Reply #5 on: March 14, 2014, 07:25:44 AM »
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  • Don't be so quick to judge Sean, we don't know he isn't preparing to ask Father for clarification. And at least he did something to find the truth by approaching Fr. Phluger. I don't think Sean is wrong for criticizing the monk or author of the letter, we should not hide our identity when it comes to the truth. The monk should stand up for his claims because souls are in danger.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes
    « Reply #6 on: March 14, 2014, 07:50:17 AM »
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  • After I received Fr. Pfluger's response, I emailed him the following message the next day:

    Greetings Fr. Pfluger-
     
    Thank you for your response.
     
    I am relieved to hear that the words attributed to you do not accurately reflect your thoughts on these matters.
     
    Unfortunately, I do not understand German.
     
    But if you care to respond, and rebut the words/thoughts attributed to you in German, I could probably find someone to translate them into English.
     
    Also, since I announced my reservations concerning the accuracy of the words attributed to you on a prominent Resistance website, and announced that I was attempting to contact you regarding their veracity or falsehood, do you give me permission to publish your response/denial on that website?
     
    Finally, should you decide to respond, citing particular innacuracies in the words attributed to you, do you give me permission to publish that response as well?
     
    Pax tecum,
     
    Sean Johnson
    St. Paul, MN
    USA
    [2-7-14]


    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline stgobnait

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    Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes
    « Reply #7 on: March 14, 2014, 07:55:45 AM »
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  • i believe fr pfluger has quite good english actually.... perhaps he is being too modest... :dancing:


    Offline hugeman

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    Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes
    « Reply #8 on: March 14, 2014, 08:56:31 AM »
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  • Yes, Father speaks english; why his language came up as a defense is interesting. It would have been nice if the entire relevant correspondence was reported-- not just select pieces. This is typical spin control: " just give them what is absolutely necessary." It would be very educational to receive the transcript of the actual talk to the brothers , so the correctness of the initial report
    could be measured, and we could avoid claims of hearsay and rumor. After all, what could Father possibly say to them that could not be widely known? For this we do thank Sean!

    Offline holysoulsacademy

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    Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes
    « Reply #9 on: March 14, 2014, 09:47:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: hugeman
    Yes, Father speaks english; why his language came up as a defense is interesting. It would have been nice if the entire relevant correspondence was reported-- not just select pieces. This is typical spin control: " just give them what is absolutely necessary." It would be very educational to receive the transcript of the actual talk to the brothers , so the correctness of the initial report
    could be measured, and we could avoid claims of hearsay and rumor. After all, what could Father possibly say to them that could not be widely known? For this we do thank Sean!


    Look, it's very simple, by placing Fr. Phluger's word as being devoid of untruth over the word of the anonymous "brother" is basically saying that the brother is lying.  
    And that I will not accept so rashly as I have no basis to place any malice in this brother's word.
    It is typical modernist speak to always ask for proof, as if someone's word is not good enough.  
    One deserves the dignity of having their word mean something unless that person has been found to be suspect otherwise.

    As for Fr. Phluger, because of his previous actions, and the fact that he CAN SEE Vat2 in the light of Tradition, already tells me that the mind is poisoned and cannot see clearly objectively, thus, clarification by submitting to Sean a copy of the transcript of the conference is the only way to clarify things.  
    Let him put it on paper and for all to see!
    After all he is not a mere clerk in a bookshop - when he speaks he speaks with authority his current state affords him.  
    Until then, the suspect word comes from Fr. Phluger.

    As for "manning up" it should be Fr. Phluger who "mans" up and set's the record straight.  
    That's what a real man would do!
    Salvation of souls are at stake here!
    The more they persist in their disobedient actions, and yes it is considered disobedience since they deny the blasphemies and sacrileges of VAt2 and accept the lawful authority these documents have over them, again they drive a nail into the Cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ!
    For as Our Lady said in La Salette, it is the sins of those closest to Her Son - the Priest, the Clergy - that offend God the most.

    Wake up people and let your priests know that they are offending God, and maybe they will have a chance to change and be saved.
    Being silent yourselves holds you complicit.
    It's like the wife of a mafioso denying having anything to do with her husband's "business", and yet allows herself to profit quite richly from it.
    The attitude of "I won't say anything - just in case, I would not want to lose sacraments especially at the moment of death."
    How many times I have heard that hogwash?
    Remember, they have said it before, "go to the local pastor, their orders are valid, and so are their sacraments".



    Offline ancien regime

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    Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes
    « Reply #10 on: March 14, 2014, 12:29:20 PM »
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  • One thing I have noticed these past few years is a great language divide within the SSPX.  There are volumes of sermons, conferences, articles, books, etc. written in French that have never been translated into English. There is also a very curious phenomenon of people within the Society saying important things to French audiences and either never mentioning them to English speaking audiences or saying something different.

    Most of Archbishop Lefebvre's sermons have not been translated. As far as I know, his conferences to the seminarians at Econe have not even been written down, let alone translated. I have come across these in Fr. Pivert's famous book and have been astounded at the depth of Archbishop Lefebvre's understanding and communication of theology.

    Meanwhile, the SSPX is spending a lot of money having worthless articles on the goings on in the Vatican and Novus Ordo world translated to be published in DICI.

    But just try to drum up interest in or funding for translating works of any real substance. I once asked about translating some of Cardinal Pie's works after hearing a priest quote him and praise him to heaven. That same priest discouraged any idea of actually providing the Cardinal's works in English.

    So, this pattern fits with Fr. Pfluger's denunciation of the notes of the brother attending his talk. The other question I have is, if he worries at all about being misquoted, why doesn't he record these talks so as to prevent this type of controversy? In this case, I really have to wonder if Fr. Pfluger even remembers exactly what he has said at any given time. There are a few recent instances of the hierarchy having to come out and "correct" or "clarify" some of his off-the-cuff statements.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Fr. Pfluger Responds Regarding Flavigny Conference Notes
    « Reply #11 on: March 14, 2014, 01:18:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: hugeman
    Yes, Father speaks english; why his language came up as a defense is interesting. It would have been nice if the entire relevant correspondence was reported-- not just select pieces. This is typical spin control: " just give them what is absolutely necessary." It would be very educational to receive the transcript of the actual talk to the brothers , so the correctness of the initial report
    could be measured, and we could avoid claims of hearsay and rumor. After all, what could Father possibly say to them that could not be widely known? For this we do thank Sean!


    Hugeman-

    The matter of Fr. Pfluger's linguistic skills was raised because I guessed at discomfort with English as a possible explanation as to why a more precise rebuttal was not forthcoming.

    If you re-read his response to me in the OP, his English is broken/choppy (e.g., "These notes doesn't reflect in no manner...," and furthermore, because he asked me "Do you understand German," which I took to imply a discomfort with English, in light of the choppy passage just cited.).

    Finally, as between the two posts you have been given the entire picture, I presume your comment about "spin control" no longer stands (at least with respect to the present thread).

    Regarding obtaining a transcript of the Conferences:

    Yes, that would be nice, but what makes you think one exists?

    It is quite a leap to presume one exists, and an even bigger leap to presume guilt and lies for failure to surrender a potentially non-existent transcript.

    Whatever Fr. Pfluger's reasons may be for not offering a more precise rebuttal, they rest with him, and are beyond the scope of my intent in starting this thread (which, as explained in the OP, was to repair the injustice in reporting the notes before verifying the ontent, which was subsequently denied).

    If you want to shoot the messenger, go ahead.

    But the central fact is that you have an explicit denial in the person of Fr. Pfluger, versus the anonymous allegation of someone who alleges they were at the conferences, and accurately reported what was said there.

    It is even a presumption to believe they were a brother, since there is no name to prove it!

    Who has the greater credibility:  One who is willing to stand behind their denial, or one who won't even back their allegation (and therefore one about whose credibility you can know nothing....except to once again presume it is good)?

    I find it irritating to be put in the position of seemingly defending Fr. Pfluger, when in reality I am defending some pretty elementary Catholic principles regarding presumption, justice, rash judgment, etc, of which he is the beneficiary, and letting the chips fall where they may.

    When I reflect on the writings and sermons of Archbishop Lefebvre (and I have repeatedly read everything he ever wrote in English), I notice strong denunciations of modernism and modernist Rome, but presumption is conspicuous by its complete absence.

    Which is to say that, as opposed as he was to modernism and modernists, he only spoke of facts, or qualified his words to indicate when he was speculating.  But he never spoke as though something was a fact when it was not a certainty.
    And this, because in addition to being the anti-modernist champion, he maintained a practice of heroic virtue amidst the battle, and did not let his comments violate moral principles.

    That is the model I am trying (however imperfectly) to follow.

    PS: This is my final post on the matter.

    Pax tecum,

    Sean Johnson

    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


     

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