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Author Topic: Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react  (Read 3339 times)

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Offline Matthew

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  • From the mailbag:


    Dear Matthew,

    Fr. Pfluger recently came to my [SSPX] chapel. He certainly seemed to be pushing for an agreement and gauging the faithful's reaction.

    I plan to write him an email since I find that I can't think so quickly on the spot.

    Here are my incomplete notes:

    - After 45-50 years we are living in uncertain times within the SSPX
    - Per Fr. Couture, there doesn't seem to be much activity or zeal in Canada; where is the work of conversions?; where are the new parishioners?
    - Does the SSPX have a mission for the Church?
    - Do we simply survive? Implication is that the SSPX cannot simply build a citadel
    - What was the plan of the Archbishop?

    Criticism of Bishop Williamson:
    (1) +Williamson believes we can do nothing; all hope is lost
    (2) We must simply wait for the chastisement; implied is the criticism that Bishop Williamson's attitude fosters a paralysis and is a despairing attitude

    - Fr. Pfluger is personally frustrated at what he sees as a lack of zeal

    Used the analogy of St. Peter's Confession to the present situation (that's how I saw it at least)
    - We must have trust: "Gates of Hell shall not prevail"
    - St. Peter had a wrong view of the Messiah initially
    - Do we have a completely human view of the SSPX-Rome drama? (Fr. Pfluger would often say that we must have a supernatural view of things)
    - We often think that God has to fix the problems within the Church immediately; are we not forcing God's Will and not trusting in His Providence?; Fr. Pfluger thinks that today's surprising way that Pope Francis views the SSPX could be a way of God talking to us; perhaps we (the SSPX) have been too proud (he said that later on in the conference, I am just trying to get everything he said).
    - In the Road to Emmaus we see that the disciples still had a wrong view of Our Lord's mission

    - Fr. Pfluger kept on saying that it is not our problem to figure out the SSPX-Rome drama; that is a problem for the Superior General; our issue should be to pray and to fulfill our duty of state; we therefore should not worry about the future

    - At one point Fr. Pfluger said "we lost a big chance..." (I am not sure why he said that)
    - Our Lord is giving us advice today:
    (1) We must not depart too quickly
    (2) We must wait and prepare and must be guided by the Holy Ghost

    The Purpose of the SSPX (per the statutes):
    (1) the preservation of the Priesthood
    (2) Not to overcome the Crisis

    Fr. Pfluger said that he thinks that to a degree the SSPX has lost its concern for priests (I wasn't sure what he was getting at here)

    - The Faith has to penetrate our lives; we are the light of the world
    - A French priest asked Archbishop Lefebvre shortly before he died what words of encouragement can he give the faithful and +ABL said in December 1990 that we must have a lively faith and missionary spirit

    - Fr. Pfluger asked why aren't the youth fervent; why are they so similar to their pagan neighbours
    - It is time to rediscover the first spirit of Tradition (in the 70s)
    - Fr. Pfluger mentioned without naming, Fr. Roy's sermon of a couple of weeks ago. Fr. Pfluger stated that a young priest (Fr. Roy) said that we must hate our enemies and how this is wrong; we must love our enemies.
    - We can't wait for the Pope to convert.....we'll be waiting a long time then!
    - Fr. Pfluger said often that we are in a new situation

    - We must pray more, study catechism and study the liturgy

    - The Resistance = practical sedevacantism
    - Priests cannot work independently; Resistance has a protestant mentality

    He stated that Bishop Williamson has always had a protestant spirit, that he never really accepted Bishop Fellay's authority and even to a degree Fr. Schmidberger's

    - The Resistance has an independent spirit and then makes it a theological problem; what are they really resisting; how can an organization allow people to dissent so openly
    - Fr. Pfluger said partly in jest that the Resistance already has 3 bishops and may soon have more bishops than priests; in Brazil they have a bishop for what 100 faithful?; sees that in the Resistance there is already much bickering; Fr. Pfeiffer attacks Bishop Williamson; Fr. Pfeiffer attacks Fr. Zendejas; criticism is that this can't be of God because of all the divisions; it is protestant

    - He stated that if a priest were to be asked to say the New Mass then we would have a duty to Resist but what these priests are doing is resisting lawful authority; they are not being asked to go against faith or morals; he emphasized this many times about saying the New Mass; that would be an order to disobey
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    Offline Matthew

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #1 on: May 28, 2016, 05:00:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew

    - Fr. Pfluger said partly in jest that the Resistance already has 3 bishops and may soon have more bishops than priests; in Brazil they have a bishop for what 100 faithful?; sees that in the Resistance there is already much bickering; Fr. Pfeiffer attacks Bishop Williamson; Fr. Pfeiffer attacks Fr. Zendejas; criticism is that this can't be of God because of all the divisions; it is protestant


    If this resonated with more than 1 Traditional Catholic, if this rang true for anyone, if this was the "clincher" for anyone to reject the Resistance and go along with the march back to Rome, then Fr. Pfeiffer will have to answer to God for each and every bit of damage that is done to souls as a result.

    Every soul that loses a bit of grace, a bit of sanctity, a bit of merit for heaven, or even heaven itself because they were scandalized by Fr. Pfeiffer's behavior -- Fr. Pfeiffer will have to answer for them ALL.

    Note his "listing" of all the bickering and divisions -- that part at least was accurate:

    Fr. Pfeiffer attacks Bishop Williamson
    Fr. Pfeiffer attacks Fr. Zendejas

    --end of list--

    He could have added:
    Fr. Pfeiffer attacks Fr. Voigt
    Fr. Pfeiffer attacks Bishop Faure
    Fr. Pfeiffer attacks "the false resistance"
    Fr. Pfeiffer attacks the people on CathInfo
    etc.

    Do you see a pattern? This isn't bickering, in-fighting or protestantism --

    This problem has a first name, it's J-o-s-e-p-h
    This problem has a second name, it's Pf-e-i-ff-e-r

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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #2 on: May 28, 2016, 08:00:40 PM »
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  • The one positive point I come away with in reading these notes is that at least the SSPX has managed to openly admit SOME truth in this situation. Let us not forget that they've been lying to the faithful for 4+ years now, saying a deal is not their desired outcome. And now, likely mere weeks before the deal is finalized, we hear the Superiors speaking in favor of all of the things the SSPX has preached against for decades.


    Quote
    - Fr. Pfluger kept on saying that it is not our problem to figure out the SSPX-Rome drama; that is a problem for the Superior General; our issue should be to pray and to fulfill our duty of state; we therefore should not worry about the future


    In the same talk here, he complains about lack of zeal and simultaneously says we should mind our own business and "not worry about the future". What zeal was left in the SSPX has already left for the Resistance.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #3 on: May 28, 2016, 08:24:59 PM »
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  • Quote
    - He stated that if a priest were to be asked to say the New Mass then we would have a duty to Resist but what these priests are doing is resisting lawful authority; they are not being asked to go against faith or morals; he emphasized this many times about saying the New Mass; that would be an order to disobey


    And our minds our now at ease with this setting of the bar so incredibly low.  :rolleyes:
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #4 on: May 28, 2016, 08:54:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    Quote
    - He stated that if a priest were to be asked to say the New Mass then we would have a duty to Resist but what these priests are doing is resisting lawful authority; they are not being asked to go against faith or morals; he emphasized this many times about saying the New Mass; that would be an order to disobey


    And our minds our now at ease with this setting of the bar so incredibly low.  :rolleyes:

    Sounds like he expects priests to be asked.  Who will be giving the order to disobey? +Fellay?  Won't they have to obey Pope Francis?


    Offline Matthew

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #5 on: May 28, 2016, 09:21:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Recusant Sede
    Matthew, may I ask why he came to visit you? Do you know him from the past?


    UGH.

    1. I clearly said this was "from the mailbag". Ergo, it's not me.
    2. He was talking about his local SSPX chapel.

    I edited the OP to make these 2 points more clear.
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    Offline RogerThat

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #6 on: May 28, 2016, 10:34:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Recusant Sede
    Matthew, may I ask why he came to visit you? Do you know him from the past?


    UGH.

    1. I clearly said this was "from the mailbag". Ergo, it's not me.
    2. He was talking about his local SSPX chapel.

    I edited the OP to make these 2 points more clear.


    I'm surprised that Fr. Pfulger didn't mention the issue of formal legitimacy of confession and matrimony. There have been instances that Rome has found marriages done in SSPX chapels both invalid and illicit in Annulment cases. I would suppose that this would be a major issue that the SSPX superiors would push in favor of an agreement.

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #7 on: May 29, 2016, 05:27:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: RogerThat
    There have been instances that Rome has found marriages done in SSPX chapels both invalid and illicit in Annulment cases. I would suppose that this would be a major issue that the SSPX superiors would push in favor of an agreement.


    Good heavens, under what grounds?


    Offline curioustrad

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #8 on: May 29, 2016, 10:06:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy
    Quote from: RogerThat
    There have been instances that Rome has found marriages done in SSPX chapels both invalid and illicit in Annulment cases. I would suppose that this would be a major issue that the SSPX superiors would push in favor of an agreement.


    Good heavens, under what grounds?


    Defect of Form - lack of Catholic minister. The Case was originally an SSPV one but the principle has been extrapolated to all Trads. As Benedict said in his letter after lifting the excommunications of the 4 bishops: "They (the SSPX) have no canonical mission from the Catholic Church" thus they cannot posit acts that require jurisdiction: confession, confirmation and marriage - this is their argumentation not mine - I'm just 'splainin' !
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #9 on: May 29, 2016, 10:22:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: curioustrad
    Quote from: TheRealMcCoy
    Quote from: RogerThat
    There have been instances that Rome has found marriages done in SSPX chapels both invalid and illicit in Annulment cases. I would suppose that this would be a major issue that the SSPX superiors would push in favor of an agreement.


    Good heavens, under what grounds?


    Defect of Form - lack of Catholic minister. The Case was originally an SSPV one but the principle has been extrapolated to all Trads. As Benedict said in his letter after lifting the excommunications of the 4 bishops: "They (the SSPX) have no canonical mission from the Catholic Church" thus they cannot posit acts that require jurisdiction: confession, confirmation and marriage - this is their argumentation not mine - I'm just 'splainin' !


    I think you who are devoted to SSPX should seriously consider if the novus ordo has any authority or not and act accordingly, this idea that most of you hold doesn't seem to be working for you.  Of course that is easy for me to say since I am CMRI, and right now very thankful to God for that.  
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline RogerThat

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #10 on: May 29, 2016, 12:39:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: curioustrad
    Quote from: TheRealMcCoy
    Quote from: RogerThat
    There have been instances that Rome has found marriages done in SSPX chapels both invalid and illicit in Annulment cases. I would suppose that this would be a major issue that the SSPX superiors would push in favor of an agreement.


    Good heavens, under what grounds?


    Defect of Form - lack of Catholic minister. The Case was originally an SSPV one but the principle has been extrapolated to all Trads. As Benedict said in his letter after lifting the excommunications of the 4 bishops: "They (the SSPX) have no canonical mission from the Catholic Church" thus they cannot posit acts that require jurisdiction: confession, confirmation and marriage - this is their argumentation not mine - I'm just 'splainin' !



    True and False.

    The SSPV case was an interesting one where a couple went directly to Rome to ask for the annulment. Rome conducted an investigation a decade ago and concluded that a number of the episcopal ordinations of Archbishop Thuc during the last 2 decades of his life were of questionable validity or outright invalid. This mainly has to do with a lack of necessary proof and the mental health condition of Archbishop Thuc during the last decade of his life (See Footnote 1). For this reason, Rome doesn't believe in the validity of the ordinations of [some] SSPV and Sede bishops. For this reason, the tribunals of most dioceses grant annulments to these couples based on a defect of form - lack of Catholic minister. I believe recently (3-5 years ago) a Sede priest appealed to Rome for a dispensation of orders or something like that. He wanted to get married or something, don't know the full details. Rome said that he was never a priest to begin with due to the questionable validity of the episcopal ordination of his consecrator. (Remember: Annulment cases go to the Diocese while dispensation of sacred orders go to Rome, per cannon law.)

    For the SSPX cases of annulment, most diocesan tribunals will attribute the lack of validity NOT BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF A CATHOLIC MINISTER, but because, from their perspective and Roman declarations, the SSPX priests lack the jurisdiction or, the technical term, faculties to bare witness to the marriage. [This is why Pope Francis granted a temporary jurisdiction to SSPX priests to hear confessions, because Rome doesn't believe in the SSPX's "emergency clause" where they believe the emergency situation of the church grants them emergency jurisdiction/faculties to hear marriages and grant absolution, is valid.] There HAVE been instances (in the US at least, not sure about Europe/Latin America) where a couple have gone to the Diocesan ordinary and asked for a "dispensation" on that rule as a matter of prudence to "make sure" that their marriage is valid in an SSPX chapel and registered as a valid marriage in the Diocese. Most dioceses do so also when/if a couple is going to be married at an Orthodox Church. They get dispensed according to Cannon 1121.

     But if a couple that does not have this dispensation appeals to the Diocese for an annulment, most of the time they are unfortunately granted the annulment because their marriage didn't have the proper form.
     I would suppose that this would be a major reason why the Superiors would push for a formal agreement with Rome in order to avoid such problems/headaches.


    Footnote 1: After the death of Archbishop Thuc, dozens of people came forward claiming to be ordained a bishop by +Thuc, some were sede some claimed to be have been sede, it was a mess. You can read all about it online and see some of the counterfeit certificates and pictures that people came up with. For this reason, Rome intervened and declared that, due to a lack of proper evidence and form and the questionable mental health of the Archbishop, many of the "ordinations" were probably invalid.






    Offline Matthew

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #11 on: May 29, 2016, 01:16:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: RogerThat
    (Remember: Annulment cases go to the Diocese while dispensation of sacred orders go to Rome, per cannon law.)

    the SSPX priests lack the jurisdiction or, the technical term, faculties to bare witness to the marriage.


    Cannon law -- if you get shot point-blank by a cannon, you die spectacularly. That's cannon law!

    And when you bare a witness, I guess you strip off his clothing?

    Or perhaps you meant Canon law and bear witness...


    Good thing we weren't talking about the Mass, or you might have talked about your favorite missile (rather than missal).
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #12 on: May 29, 2016, 01:36:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: RogerThat
    (Remember: Annulment cases go to the Diocese while dispensation of sacred orders go to Rome, per cannon law.)

    the SSPX priests lack the jurisdiction or, the technical term, faculties to bare witness to the marriage.


    Cannon law -- if you get shot point-blank by a cannon, you die spectacularly. That's cannon law!

    And when you bare a witness, I guess you strip off his clothing?

    Or perhaps you meant Canon law and bear witness...


    Good thing we weren't talking about the Mass, or you might have talked about your favorite missile (rather than missal).



     :roll-laugh1:
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #13 on: May 29, 2016, 02:16:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: RogerThat
    Quote from: curioustrad
    Quote from: TheRealMcCoy
    Quote from: RogerThat
    There have been instances that Rome has found marriages done in SSPX chapels both invalid and illicit in Annulment cases. I would suppose that this would be a major issue that the SSPX superiors would push in favor of an agreement.


    Good heavens, under what grounds?


    Defect of Form - lack of Catholic minister. The Case was originally an SSPV one but the principle has been extrapolated to all Trads. As Benedict said in his letter after lifting the excommunications of the 4 bishops: "They (the SSPX) have no canonical mission from the Catholic Church" thus they cannot posit acts that require jurisdiction: confession, confirmation and marriage - this is their argumentation not mine - I'm just 'splainin' !



    True and False.

    The SSPV case was an interesting one where a couple went directly to Rome to ask for the annulment. Rome conducted an investigation a decade ago and concluded that a number of the episcopal ordinations of Archbishop Thuc during the last 2 decades of his life were of questionable validity or outright invalid. This mainly has to do with a lack of necessary proof and the mental health condition of Archbishop Thuc during the last decade of his life (See Footnote 1). For this reason, Rome doesn't believe in the validity of the ordinations of [some] SSPV and Sede bishops. For this reason, the tribunals of most dioceses grant annulments to these couples based on a defect of form - lack of Catholic minister. I believe recently (3-5 years ago) a Sede priest appealed to Rome for a dispensation of orders or something like that. He wanted to get married or something, don't know the full details. Rome said that he was never a priest to begin with due to the questionable validity of the episcopal ordination of his consecrator. (Remember: Annulment cases go to the Diocese while dispensation of sacred orders go to Rome, per cannon law.)

    For the SSPX cases of annulment, most diocesan tribunals will attribute the lack of validity NOT BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF A CATHOLIC MINISTER, but because, from their perspective and Roman declarations, the SSPX priests lack the jurisdiction or, the technical term, faculties to bare witness to the marriage. [This is why Pope Francis granted a temporary jurisdiction to SSPX priests to hear confessions, because Rome doesn't believe in the SSPX's "emergency clause" where they believe the emergency situation of the church grants them emergency jurisdiction/faculties to hear marriages and grant absolution, is valid.] There HAVE been instances (in the US at least, not sure about Europe/Latin America) where a couple have gone to the Diocesan ordinary and asked for a "dispensation" on that rule as a matter of prudence to "make sure" that their marriage is valid in an SSPX chapel and registered as a valid marriage in the Diocese. Most dioceses do so also when/if a couple is going to be married at an Orthodox Church. They get dispensed according to Cannon 1121.

     But if a couple that does not have this dispensation appeals to the Diocese for an annulment, most of the time they are unfortunately granted the annulment because their marriage didn't have the proper form.
     I would suppose that this would be a major reason why the Superiors would push for a formal agreement with Rome in order to avoid such problems/headaches.


    Footnote 1: After the death of Archbishop Thuc, dozens of people came forward claiming to be ordained a bishop by +Thuc, some were sede some claimed to be have been sede, it was a mess. You can read all about it online and see some of the counterfeit certificates and pictures that people came up with. For this reason, Rome intervened and declared that, due to a lack of proper evidence and form and the questionable mental health of the Archbishop, many of the "ordinations" were probably invalid.






    Honestly, are you for real??? SSPV have Thuc line bishops???

     :roll-laugh2:

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Fr. Pfluger pushing agreement - seeing how Faithful will react
    « Reply #14 on: May 29, 2016, 02:17:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: RogerThat
    (Remember: Annulment cases go to the Diocese while dispensation of sacred orders go to Rome, per cannon law.)

    the SSPX priests lack the jurisdiction or, the technical term, faculties to bare witness to the marriage.


    Cannon law -- if you get shot point-blank by a cannon, you die spectacularly. That's cannon law!

    And when you bare a witness, I guess you strip off his clothing?

    Or perhaps you meant Canon law and bear witness...


    Good thing we weren't talking about the Mass, or you might have talked about your favorite missile (rather than missal).




    Great one!! :cheers: