Author Topic: Fr. Pfeiffer please address this question: Is the Conciliar Church Catholic (Read 10835 times)

magdalena · « **Reply #75 on:** January 30, 2013, 05:25:03 AM »

Now that's the spirit.

curioustrad · « **Reply #76 on:** January 30, 2013, 08:40:54 AM »

Quote from: Lampstand

Quote from: curioustrad
Now, now, read your English history first. Before WWII Churchill was booted for suggesting England re-arm and prepare for the German war-machine. Chamberlain pooh-poohed the idea and went running hat in hand to Herr Hitler and returned to England with a shameful piece of paper selling the Czechs down the river. Chamberlain called it "Peace in our time". Of course Poland vanished next and that was the end of the appeasement process.

Churchill who was banished was made Prime Minister, after all he had been right all along even in the banishment period which is known in Churchill's life as the "wilderness years". Do the parallels start to ring clear to you ? (AN attic in Wimbledon..)

If Providence can return an ousted politician to the top job to lead a country in war cannot the same Lord of Providence restore another man to lead where one has so disastrously failed ? I do believe in miracles. Could you believe a piece of bread by ancient words could change its substance ? We're looking for something infinitely less than that here ? Have Faith, Faith that can move mountains !

Who are you?

In the immortal words of Gilbert and Sullivan:

A wandering minstrel I —
A thing of shreds and patches,
Of ballads, songs and snatches,
And dreamy lullaby!
My catalogue is long,
Through every passion ranging,
And to your humours changing
I tune my supple song!
I tune my supple song!
:guitar:

curioustrad · « **Reply #77 on:** January 30, 2013, 08:48:22 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Churchill was a warmonger and a creature of the Jews.

Well as to being a creature of a certain and particular ethnic, cultural and religious group I have no knowledge, but history should bear me out that it wasn't England or France that invaded Poland.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #78 on:** January 30, 2013, 08:56:36 AM »

Quote from: curioustrad

Well as to being a creature of a certain and particular ethnic, cultural and religious group I have no knowledge, but history should bear me out that it wasn't England or France that invaded Poland.

It wasn't Germany that declared war on the UK or France.

Time to start using your brain.

Jerome · « **Reply #79 on:** January 30, 2013, 09:37:16 AM »

Quote from: curioustrad

Problem: If the official apparatus is not Catholic and not to be obeyed, then where is the Catholic Church ? All theologians and canonists prior to the Council speak in terms of "profession of Faith" as a prerequisite for membership in the church, but unity of government is also essential, i.e. submission to the Roman Pontiff and the Catholic bishops in communion with him. Thus two essential credentials must be established: what Faith is professed (what do they believe) and are they in union with the Roman Pontiff ?

The Authority of the Church
by Saint Francis de Sales (1567-1622), Bishop and Doctor of the Church

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/authorityds.htm

(Below is Chapter IV - Unity of the Church

OF THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH IN DOCTRINE AND BELIEF. THE TRUE CHURCH MUST BE ONE IN ITS DOCTRINE. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS UNITED IN BELIEF, THE SO CALLED REFORMED CHURCH IS NOT.

Is Jesus Christ divided? No, surely, for he is the God of peace, not of dissension, as S. Paul taught throughout the Church. It cannot then be that the true Church should be in dissension or division of belief and opinion, for God would no longer be its Author or Spouse, and, like a kingdom divided against itself, it would be brought to desolation. As soon as God takes a people to himself, as he has done the Church, he gives it unity of heart and of path the Church is but one body, of which all the faithful are members, compacted and united together by all its joints; there is but one spirit animating this body: God is in his holy place: who maketh men of one manner to dwell in a house (Ps. ixvii. 7); therefore the true Church of God must be united, fastened and joined together in one same doctrine and belief.

It is necessary, says S. Irenmus (iii. 3) that all the faithful should come together and unite themselves to the Roman Church [on account of] its superior ruling power. She is the mother of their sacerdotal dignity, says Julius I. (ad Euseb.) "She is the commencement of the unity of the priesthood, she is the bond of unity," says S. Cyprian (Ep. 5 5). Again: "We are not ignorant that there is but one God, one Christ and Lord, whom we have confessed, one Holy Spirit, one pastoral office (episcopatus) in the Catholic Church " (de un. Ec. iv.). The good Optatus also said to the Donatists (ii. 2, 3) : " Thou canst not deny that thou knowest that in the city of Rome the chief chair has been first granted to S. Peter, in which sat the chief of the Apostles, S. Peter, whence he was called Cephas ; the chair in which the unity of the whole was preserved, in order that the other Apostles might not seek to put forward and maintain each his own, and that henceforward he might be a schismatic who would set up another chair against this one chair. Therefore in this one chair, which is the first of its prerogatives, was first seated S. Peter." These are almost the words of this ancient and holy doctor; and every Catholic of this age is of the same conviction. We hold the Roman Church to be our refuge in all our difficulties; we all are her humble children, and receive our food from the milk of her breasts; we are all branches of this most fruitful stock, and draw no sap of doctrine save from this root. This is what clothes us all with the same livery of belief; for knowing that there is one chief and lieutenant general in the Church, what he decides and determines with the other prelates of the Church when he is seated in the chair of Peter to teach Christendom, serves as law and measure to our belief. Let there be error everywhere throughout the world, yet you will see the same faith in Catholics. And if there be any difference of opinion, either it will not be in things belonging to the faith, or else, as soon as ever a General Council or the Roman See shall have determined it, you will see every one submit to their decision. Our understandings do not stray away from one another in their belief, but keep most closely united and linked together by the bond of the superior authority of the Church, to which each one gives in with all humility, steadying his faith thereon, as upon the pillar and ground of truth. Our Catholic Church has but one language and one same form of words throughout the whole earth.

Letter of Saint Athanasius to His Flock

http://www.olrl.org/snt_docs/athnasus.shtml

"May God console you! ... What saddens you ... is the fact that others have occupied the churches by violence, while during this time you are on the outside. It is a fact that they have the premises – but you have the Apostolic Faith. They can occupy our churches, but they are outside the true Faith. You remain outside the places of worship, but the Faith dwells within you. Let us consider: what is more important, the place or the Faith? The true Faith, obviously. Who has lost and who has won in the struggle – the one who keeps the premises or the one who keeps the Faith? True, the premises are good when the Apostolic Faith is preached there; they are holy if everything takes place there in a holy way ...

"You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day.

"Thus, the more violently they try to occupy the places of worship, the more they separate themselves from the Church. They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from it and going astray. Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." St. Athanasius

curioustrad · « **Reply #80 on:** January 30, 2013, 09:52:00 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: curioustrad
Well as to being a creature of a certain and particular ethnic, cultural and religious group I have no knowledge, but history should bear me out that it wasn't England or France that invaded Poland.

It wasn't Germany that declared war on the UK or France.

Time to start using your brain.

The French and British had made a pact with Poland that they would come to the aid of Poland if attacked. The UK Prime Minister does not have the power to declare war. Now read Chamberlain's radio address:

The British Declaration of War

The British declaration of war against nαzι Germany came at 11.15 on September 3rd 1939. Neville Chamberlain spoke to the nation via radio. Britain had given Hitler an ultimatum to withdraw from Poland after the Germans invaded Poland on September 1st.

"I am speaking to you from the Cabinet Room at 10, Downing Street.

This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German Government a final note stating that unless we heard from them by 11.00 a.m. that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a state of war would exist between us.

I have to tell you that no such undertaking has been received, and that consequently this country is at war with Germany.

You can imagine what a bitter blow it is to me that all my long struggle to win peace has failed. Yet I cannot believe that there is anything more or anything different I could have done and that would have been more successful.

Up to the very last it would have been quite possible to have arranged a peaceful and honourable settlement between Germany and Poland, but Hitler would not have it.

He had evidently made up his mind to attack Poland whatever happened; and although he now says he has put forward reasonable proposals which were rejected by the Poles, that is not a true statement.

The proposals were never shown to the Poles nor to us; and although they were announced in a German broadcast on Thursday night, Hitler did not wait to make comment on them, but ordered his troops to cross the Polish frontier.

His actions show convincingly that there is no chance of expecting that this man will ever give up his practice of using force to gain his will. He can only be stopped by force.

We and France are today, in fulfilment of our obligations, going to the aid of Poland, who is so bravely resisting this wicked and unprovoked attack on her people. We have a clear conscience. We have done all that any country could do to establish peace. The situation in which no word given to Germany’s ruler could be trusted and no people or country could feel themselves safe has become intolerable.

And now that we have resolved to finish it, I know that you will play your part with calmness and courage.

At such a moment as this the assurances of support that we have received from the Empire are a source of profound encouragement to us.

When I have finished speaking certain detailed announcements will be made on behalf of the Government. Give these your closest attention.

The Government have made plans under which it will be possible to carry on the work of the nation in the days of stress and strain that may be ahead. But these plans need your help.

You may be taking part in the fighting Services or as a volunteer in one of the branches of civil defence. If so you will report for duty in accordance with the instructions you have received.

You may be engaged in work essential to the prosecution of war for the maintenance of the life of the people – in factories, in transport, in public utility concerns or in the supply of other necessaries of life. If so, it is of vital importance that you should carry on with your jobs.

Now may God bless you all. May He defend the right. It is the evil things that we shall be fighting against – brute force, bad faith, injustice, oppression and persecution – and against them I am certain that the right will prevail."

Telesphorus · « **Reply #81 on:** January 30, 2013, 10:26:24 AM »

That's a non-answer of course.

Britain and France didn't declare war to defend Poland. They declared war to start a world war with Germany.

They didn't declare war on the Soviet Union. How were they supposed to restore Poland to its boundaries after it was conquered, that is, make good on their guarantee, without going to war with the Soviet Union?

In fact, when the war was ended, Poland was under Communist domination and the territorial annexation of Polish territory by Stalin was confirmed by those who started the World War by declaring war on Germany, ostensibly over Poland.

The reality is: the guarantee to Poland was a fraud, a pretext to start a world war.

Or course, Churchill actually had more of a hand in helping to ensure British entry into WWI.

Not to mention his support of the dehousing plan, targeting civilians, his support of firebombing, his consideration of the use of poison gas on cities, etc.

curioustrad · « **Reply #82 on:** January 30, 2013, 04:26:00 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

That's a non-answer of course.

Britain and France didn't declare war to defend Poland. They declared war to start a world war with Germany.

They didn't declare war on the Soviet Union. How were they supposed to restore Poland to its boundaries after it was conquered, that is, make good on their guarantee, without going to war with the Soviet Union?

In fact, when the war was ended, Poland was under Communist domination and the territorial annexation of Polish territory by Stalin was confirmed by those who started the World War by declaring war on Germany, ostensibly over Poland.

The reality is: the guarantee to Poland was a fraud, a pretext to start a world war.

Or course, Churchill actually had more of a hand in helping to ensure British entry into WWI.

Not to mention his support of the dehousing plan, targeting civilians, his support of firebombing, his consideration of the use of poison gas on cities, etc.

Ah, an historical revisionist - well of course we cannot even debate these questions because we are not even on the same page.

Well the fact that my grand parents' parish church was burnt to the ground by German (ahem, excuse me English) fire bombs was just another part of a one world government plot I suppose ?

Wanna buy this bridge ?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #83 on:** January 30, 2013, 04:39:40 PM »

Quote from: curioustrad

Ah, an historical revisionist

Nothing I said is historical revisionism.

France and Britain declared war on Germany because of a guarantee to Poland, a guarantee they didn't keep, and never lifted a finger to keep, therefore starting the world war.

If you can't debate then don't.

Quote

- well of course we cannot even debate these questions because we are not even on the same page.

Well the fact that my grand parents' parish church was burnt to the ground by German (ahem, excuse me English) fire bombs was just another part of a one world government plot I suppose ?

Churchill was the one who initiated strategic bombing of cities as a policy and the raid on on London was retaliation for a raid on Berlin.

Quote

Wanna buy this bridge ?

Looks like you lost the argument.

Catholic Tradition isn't going to be preserved by people who admire the leaders of its worst enemies, the people who created this current world political order by waging two world wars and destroying the 19th Century political order.

True Catholics resist Zionism and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and their influence. They don't praise warmongers like Churchill for their policies. That is insanity.

curioustrad · « **Reply #84 on:** January 30, 2013, 04:49:53 PM »

Where the heck did I praise Churchill ? I pointed out some historical resemblances between Churchill's wilderness years and + Williamson's attic years. + Williamson himself quoted Churchill in the Bristol conferences in a favorable way and has done in my hearing many times.

Saying: "I won the debate!" isn't actually saying anything.

+ Williamson may indeed rise again - stranger things have happened before as did Churchill's resurrection.

I wish you understood English - it's a very subtle language - very capable and susceptible of misinterpretation especially when we want it that way. I was talking about the Trad crisis and drew an historical parallel - somehow you went off on an anti-Zionist tirade that wasn't germane to anything on this thread.

But, after all (and we should never start a sentence with a preposition or conjunction) Pfeiffer has a reassuring Germanic name - perhaps enough to found a IV Reich, mein General ?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #85 on:** January 30, 2013, 04:52:24 PM »

Quote from: curioustrad

Where the heck did I praise Churchill ? I pointed out some historical resemblances between Churchill's wilderness years and Williamson's attic years. Williamson himself quoted Churchill in the Bristol conferences in a favorable way and has done in my hearing many times.

Saying: "I won the debate!" isn't actually saying anything.

Williamson may indeed rise again - stranger things have happened before as did Churchill's resurrection.

I wish you understood English - it's a very subtle language - very capable and susceptible of misinterpretation especially when we want it that way. I was talking about the Trad crisis and drew an historical parallel - somehow you went off on an anti-Zionist tirade that wasn't germane to anything on this thread.

But, after all (and we should never start a sentence with a preposition or conjunction) Pfeiffer has a reassuring Germanic name - perhaps enough to found a IV Reich, mein General ?

I understand English perfectly. The one posting non sequiturs here is you.

curioustrad · « **Reply #86 on:** January 30, 2013, 04:53:22 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: curioustrad
Where the heck did I praise Churchill ? I pointed out some historical resemblances between Churchill's wilderness years and Williamson's attic years. Williamson himself quoted Churchill in the Bristol conferences in a favorable way and has done in my hearing many times.

Saying: "I won the debate!" isn't actually saying anything.

Williamson may indeed rise again - stranger things have happened before as did Churchill's resurrection.

I wish you understood English - it's a very subtle language - very capable and susceptible of misinterpretation especially when we want it that way. I was talking about the Trad crisis and drew an historical parallel - somehow you went off on an anti-Zionist tirade that wasn't germane to anything on this thread.

But, after all (and we should never start a sentence with a preposition or conjunction) Pfeiffer has a reassuring Germanic name - perhaps enough to found a IV Reich, mein General ?

I understand English perfectly. The one posting non sequiturs here is you.

So do I and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it ?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #87 on:** January 30, 2013, 04:55:04 PM »

Quote from: curioustrad

So do I and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it ?

It really isn't. You're a jackass.

curioustrad · « **Reply #88 on:** January 30, 2013, 06:56:48 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: curioustrad
So do I and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it ?

It really isn't. You're a jackass.

Your servant, a humble client of St. Francis....(if only I were so good)

magdalena · « **Reply #89 on:** January 30, 2013, 08:14:57 PM »

You know, Telesphorus and curioustrad, I bet you two would like each other if you met in person.

:cheers: