In normal times he wouldn’t be given jurisdiction to preach.Definitely, this.
.It is inappropriate for children and young teens.
It's inappropriate for children, but not for adults.
.
Taken at his word, if he were to give this sermon to Vatican clerics it wouldn't do them any good.
.
And that goes all the way to the top.
.
Yes, he's absolutely lost his marbles.Exactly.
[Pfieffer] Why do you get angry when someone cuts you off in traffic? Because of masturbation.
Really?
Even if one wants to touch upon delicate topics of purit/impurity from the pulpit, one should so so very delicately so that it goes over the heads of the children who are young enough where they shouldn't even hear mention of it.
Exactly.
From the pulpit and the way he is talking about it, it is as inappropriate for children as it is inappropriate for adults.
The sermon was a little shocking no doubt, but in this day and age, with cell phones, television, movies and general association with this society, the world is awash in those sins. Evil can fill the world with sewage but Catholics can't address cleaning it up because its too dirty an issue? No wonder things are so bad. Catholics tippy-toe around the worse things and call it charity.This was my first reaction. It's an immoral, over-sɛҳuąƖized world out there - an utter warzone. For children, I think it takes a combination of 1) sheltering and 2) direct discussion. It's not either-or.
The sermon was a little shocking no doubt, but in this day and age, with cell phones, television, movies and general association with this society, the world is awash in those sins. Evil can fill the world with sewage but Catholics can't address cleaning it up because its too dirty an issue? No wonder things are so bad. Catholics tippy-toe around the worse things and call it charity. No doubt there are some people who manage to keep their kids completely innocent--good for them. It is a noble thing, if not very rare. Traditional Catholics often think they are doing that when they say they don't have a tv, but take their kids to movies. What hypocrisy! Look, I'm not fan of Pfeiffer either, but as a priest, he knows how pervasive this is in his confessional. If counsel in the confessional was working he probably wouldn't find a need to go rough. Aren't we to go easy on the person and hard on the offense? Word to the sensitive moms: if your kids hear something harsh, take them aside and explain it to them appropriate to their age and refuse to get scandalized. Our Lady heard the worst things and she was more innocent than any kid. Better to take opportunities to lessen harm then assume kids will never hear stuff you prefer they shouldn't.
Traditional Catholics often think they are doing that when they say they don't have a tv, but take their kids to movies. What hypocrisy!
The sermon was a little shocking no doubt, but in this day and age, with cell phones, television, movies and general association with this society, the world is awash in those sins. Evil can fill the world with sewage but Catholics can't address cleaning it up because its too dirty an issue? No wonder things are so bad. Catholics tippy-toe around the worse things and call it charity. No doubt there are some people who manage to keep their kids completely innocent--good for them. It is a noble thing, if not very rare. Traditional Catholics often think they are doing that when they say they don't have a tv, but take their kids to movies. What hypocrisy! Look, I'm not fan of Pfeiffer either, but as a priest, he knows how pervasive this is in his confessional. If counsel in the confessional was working he probably wouldn't find a need to go rough. Aren't we to go easy on the person and hard on the offense? Word to the sensitive moms: if your kids hear something harsh, take them aside and explain it to them appropriate to their age and refuse to get scandalized. Our Lady heard the worst things and she was more innocent than any kid. Better to take opportunities to lessen harm then assume kids will never hear stuff you prefer they shouldn't.But what about Our Lord happenby? The sanctuary candle is lit, so He is right there.
If the listener feels scandalized by what was said by Fr. Pfeiffer in those specified times, the person might suffer some level of scrupulosity.Souls are falling into hell by the millions for these same sins. Didn't Our Lady speak of this vice of lust being the most dominate sin that send souls to hell in our modern time? Sometimes it needs to be said in the most embarrassing terms to stop the grave sins that control and damn most lives.
I'm not a fan of Fr. Pfeiffer, but saying the words "masturbation", "self-abuse", "ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ", and "self-pleasure" is not inappropriate or madness, considering he is warning people about these sins.
Sometimes it needs to be said in the most embarrassing terms to stop the grave sins that control and damn most lives.
Maybe Father Pfeiffer is basing his sermon on what he has heard in the confessional. But I think that Priests aren't really supposed to directly address problems (by way of the pulpit) that they have heard in confidence in the confessional. Maybe I'm wrong about that.You're not wrong Meg - he is supposed to be a priest speaking for Christ, not a bar fly, he is in the presence of Our Lord, not auditioning for a TV program. There are many better and more prudent ways to say what he said, and I only listened to about 15 seconds.
I know, I get it. It was definitely a brazen sermon, I just wonder whether it isn't necessary to wake people up and get them out of their snoozing.Well it would have done that real well I bet lol.
No. No it doesn't.Expletives are different than technical terms and never ok, and even some technical terms should not be mentioned at Mass. Modesty necessarily includes the least of those who might be offended, and it was pretty strong language of Father, but honestly, short of expletives and certain technical terminology, priests need to go after the bad behavior in a way that stuff is specifically mentioned, lest some people find the excuse that it was never specifically mentioned.
So, where does it stop, eh? To discourage fornication I'm going to talk about how all guys these days want to do is to [expletive] girls?
Certainly not, I would have been mortified, and such things should never be spoken of in mixed company, delicacy demands it.I get what you're saying but we don't live in the 50s anymore! We don't even live in the 80s (which were quite tame, compared to now). There are tvs EVERYWHERE. Ads everywhere. Video games everywhere. By and large, delicacy, decency and morality are GONE in today's world.
Expletives are different than technical terms and never ok, and even some technical terms should not be mentioned at Mass.
Certainly not, I would have been mortified, and such things should never be spoken of in mixed company, delicacy demands it.
The subject is a delicate one, and could have been handled/delivered more delicately, for sure.
Even the points about the coffee and traffic cut-offs are not so out of place as some suggest: The point was not that SA causes you to snap from cold coffee or getting cut-off, but that an habitual practice of SA (or ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity) makes one a violent person (and therefore more habitually prone to continued acts of violence, such as the two examples he gave).
I lot of the terms that Fr used would not be known by children.
But the theory in itself (i.e., people who are mired in sins of violence become violent people, just as people consistently practicing any particular virtue become virtuous in that regard) is not so far out as some make it.
Agree, but it's not like she was scandalized from the sermon, which you're "walking out of the sermon" comment implies.
Yes, he was saying that "self absorption" is a non-sɛҳuąƖ form of "self love", which impurity is the main cause.
I think you should retract this. Way over the top. Fr P is still a priest, who is owed respect and we should assume some wisdom on his part, due to what he hears in the confessional.
I would have walked my children out of there and probably said something out loud to Father while walking out.Exactly what I would have done!!
I think some of the delicate flowers here should step back a moment and realize that if soft-spoken sermons and advice were working, he wouldn't feel the need to hammer it home like this in order to keep souls from suffering in Hell for eternity. I think if it made enough impact to stop one soul from this sin, then it was worth a couple of blushes.Exactly.
I do not condone the actions of Fr P in many things and do not support him, but calling him crazy for doing his actual job as a priest is wrong and a sin.Double exactly.
Plus Father Pfeiffer shows himself borderline deranged if he thinks that masturbation is the cause of losing your temper when someone cuts you off in traffic or if your coffee is cold. Hopefully he's aware that there are SEVEN cardinal sins and that not every sin traces back to lust.
Typical of Fr. Pfeiffer, the grown-up, incorrigible "fat-boy", who has always sought after attention.
The fact the OLMC's priests are under the control of the fake lay-exorcist, Paul Hernandez, should put a chill down our spines.
Just ignore them.
...also, bus loads of male and female prostitutes arriving at the Vatican everyday at 4am?? REALLY?? That seems like a stretch, even for Modernist Rome! I’m sure if that were true the poperatzzi [paparazzi] and National Inquirer would have been all over that years ago..
If I remember correctly, false witness is still a sin. If your going to say things like that you better have irrefutable proof!
stg: With Respect, are not talking about the Priest, but about the Sermon...
...also, bus loads of male and female prostitutes arriving at the Vatican everyday at 4am?? REALLY?? That seems like a stretch, even for Modernist Rome! I’m sure if that were true the poperatzzi and National Inquierer would have been all over that years ago.Love this! Is it a joke or a typo? If the former, :applause:. If the latter :fryingpan:
I know, I get it. It was definitely a brazen sermon, I just wonder whether it isn't necessary to wake people up and get them out of their snoozing.Remember: The end doesn't justify the means, happenby.
Exactly.For ...adults? :laugh1:
From the pulpit and the way he is talking about it, it is as inappropriate for children as it is inappropriate for adults.
He probably shouldn't have said "masturbation" or "prostitutes" from the pulpit, but aside from that I don't think it's such a big deal. It's good for priests to speak against impurity, so I think this sermon was good for most people to hear. It certainly needed to be said, especially in this day and age. Most priests use less specific terms to describe sɛҳuąƖly-related topics, and that's what Fr. Pfeiffer should have done in this instance. It speaks to his lack of prudence more than anything else. All things, considered...Sure the subject matter would be good for everyone to hear, but it crossed a line...and to top it all off, he made stuff up all through out it with road rage, coffee, bus loads of prostitutes, and generals encouraging sex to make the soldiers more vicious....We all heard the impurity sermons before, and I'm sure they had them generations ago. I don't buy into the comments about how its so needed in this day and age, there is a reason why whoring is called the world's oldest profession...people have always been people. I expect to hear talks like this in a retreat, not from the pulpit. I think it goes further than prudence, and over elaborating. I feel that he intentionally went in that much detail to deliberately push the envelope.
still a decent sermon.
Sure the subject matter would be good for everyone to hear, but it crossed a line...and to top it all off, he made stuff up all through out it with road rage, coffee, bus loads of prostitutes, and generals encouraging sex to make the soldiers more vicious....We all heard the impurity sermons before, and I'm sure they had them generations ago. I don't buy into the comments about how its so needed in this day and age, there is a reason why whoring is called the world's oldest profession...people have always been people. I expect to hear talks like this in a retreat, not from the pulpit. I think it goes further than prudence, and over elaborating. I feel that he intentionally went in that much detail to deliberately push the envelope.First of all, he didn't make that stuff up(except maybe about the busloads of prostitutes-idk). If you think most of that isn't true, you're incredibly naive.
."...if he were to give this sermon to Vatican clerics it wouldn't do them any good".
It's inappropriate for children, but not for adults.
.
Taken at his word, if he were to give this sermon to Vatican clerics it wouldn't do them any good.
.
And that goes all the way to the top.
.
I actually disagree with that; my observation is that young men in particular who have fallen into sins of impurity, especially of the solitary variety, become more passive and less aggressive. I think it does something to disrupt the testosterone cycle. I think that it's been docuмented that this kind of thing messes with various neurotransmitter systems in the brain.Actually, everyone has 2 appetites, the concupiscible (wanting to reach out and grab various "goods" -- easily obtained -- for ourselves) and the irascible (seeking goods that are arduous to obtain, or "in the process of walking away" from us).
I could see saying that sins of impurity lead to violence but not that violence is caused by sins of impurity. Violence can be caused by many things. If I'm in a bad mood, I can certainly get angry at someone cutting me off in traffic ... and it has precious little to do with purity. In fact, it's quite well known that generally coupled with concupiscence as a distinct effect of the Fall is irascibility (being prone to anger).
Yes, he's absolutely lost his marbles.
[Pfieffer] Why do you get angry when someone cuts you off in traffic? Because of masturbation. That's why. Why do you get angry when your coffee is cold? Because of self-abuse.
He's borderline certifiable.
Even if one wants to touch upon delicate topics of purit/impurity from the pulpit, one should so so very delicately so that it goes over the heads of the children who are young enough where they shouldn't even hear mention of it.
I should not go to Mass and come away feeling disgusted. This sermon was absolutely repugnant.
Father Pfeiffer seems angry all time too ... and he ties all anger back to self-abuse.
This is uncalled for, and you should apologize! Fr Pfeiffer's personal sins are irrelevant to the discussion.
Irrelevant and totally off topic.
I tried to correlate what Fr was saying but could make no logic of it. How he even made the connections he did? Cause of road rage...suppressed or nonnsurpressed self stimulation? Anger due to coffee of the wrong temperature due to sɛҳuąƖ tension? Man seeking an adrenaline rush from strenuous exercise is also due to lust?? (Now I know he can’t relate to the endorphins released from vigorous excercise).
While he does say a few things that make sense, the rest is just a warped rant of thoughts that are illogical and unnecessarily vulgar and offensive.
and generals encouraging sex to make the soldiers more vicious....
There are some men in this category who actually have very little problem with impurity. I have personal experience to prove it. Getting cut off in traffic means you are committing self-abuse? Uh, how about no. I am half choleric half melancholic, I have a quick temper, but Deo Gratias impurity is not one of my besetting sins.
You specifically said "a priest must discern", which implies you think the priest was wrong. You can't criticize a sermon without criticizing the priest.What the literal Hell, man? You think priests are above criticism? What cult taught you that? "the Leader is a prophet from God. Going against the Leader is blasphemy..."
Actually, this is historically false. Going all the way back to the Ancient Greeks, the thinking was that abstaining from sex increased virility and battle performance.Yes! Exactly!
As for those (committed blindly to defending Fr. Pfeiffer always) who attempt to defend THIS sermon --"John: "Sin, I think. Mostly, he was against it."
Yes, "thank heaven for small favors" that there was a shred of good advice in this overall bad sermon. You could probably find some nucleus of good content in most Novus Ordo sermons today, for that matter.
It reminds me of an old movie quote, it might have been John Wayne:
John: "I heard a sermon just yesterday."
Pious protestant woman: "Oh yes? What was it about."
John: "Sin, I think. Mostly, he was against it."
Well I hope so!
Just because he throws in 30 seconds of good advice at the end, doesn't mean the rest of the sermon was good. A priest could give an even worse sermon -- with explicit language and props (visual aids), and throw in some good advice and action-items (Rosary, devotion to Our Lady, etc.) at the end -- but that wouldn't excuse such a sermon either. Would it?
Fr. Pfeiffer uses lip service to Our Lady as a blank check for countless scandalous behavior for himself, his associated priests, and his Boston, KY operation. And some people lap it up!
Is this really appropriate from the pulpit?"I could not listen anymore".
https://youtu.be/nMjG-lLx-XA
9 min mark- 10:15 min mark
11:45-13
13:35-14:05
14:20-15:10
15:35-15:45
I could not listen anymore.
Has he lost his mind?
I had no problem listening to the sermon. I listen for solutions which take awhile coming or fall short. We need the Powers of the Precious Blood in sermons. I would like to say what our sermon was like but I will say this, one day you will wish to hear sermons against the sins of the flesh, forQuoteone day you will hear silly things.What are you saying? What does this mean?
Incredulous,Better have him remind Archbishop Lefebvre while you are at it?
Please remind him of that the next time he is speaking on nourishing your soul at the Novus Ordo........................ :laugh1:
Me thinkest you misseth the point?.
(https://ytimg.googleusercontent.com/vi/KfPnVhBO0Ys/mqdefault.jpg)
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)
I was actually denigrating Paul Hernandez's dark "priesthood".
Our Lady of Guadalupe, who's Feast-day is upon us, has a different meaning to him: Tonantzin (http://witchesandpagans.com/sagewoman-blogs/indigenous-women/tonantzin-holy-mother-of-guadalupe.html)
I seem to recall that sermons are to be tailored to the congregation..
Maybe there were no children or females at this mass? (It would be shocking if he would speak this way in front of his mother.)
Which begs the question, what is going on at OLMC?
I seem to recall that sermons are to be tailored to the congregation.What's the problem with females being there?
Maybe there were no children or females at this mass? (It would be shocking if he would speak this way in front of his mother.)
Which begs the question, what is going on at OLMC?
If you have to ask that :facepalm:Who are you talking to?
.I forgot about the video recorder at olmc, a young girl, not Mr. Hernandez.
I was thinking about this while watching the video. You can never tell what age groups are present in the congregation because Paul Hernandez (who always runs the video camera - you can tell because of numerous clues not the least of which is they are posted on his YouTube channel) never points the camera toward the people in the pews. For all we know everyone present in the pews is adult.
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The one exception would be the fact that the altar boy seated behind Fr. Pfeiffer couldn't be any older than 14, perhaps as young as 12.
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Therefore we can know that at least one of the listeners was a child.
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You specifically said "a priest must discern", which implies you think the priest was wrong. You can't criticize a sermon without criticizing the priest.
Matthew said:
What the literal Hell, man? You think priests are above criticism? What cult taught you that? "the Leader is a prophet from God. Going against the Leader is blasphemy..."
The one exception would be the fact that the altar boy seated behind Fr. Pfeiffer couldn't be any older than 14, perhaps as young as 12.
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Therefore we can know that at least one of the listeners was a child.
Better have him remind Archbishop Lefebvre while you are at it?Yes, Remind him as well.
http://sodalitium-pianum.com/pfeifferites-tell-archbishop-lefebvre-to-get-lost/
This is off topic, but I don't think a 12-14 year old is a "child". They are definitely old enough (generally speaking) to grasp such matters.Not in my home..
Not in my home..I don't see how a 13 year-old wouldn't already know of such terms.
What kind of traditional catholics introduce their innocent 12-14 year olds to such talk?
What ever happened to childhood innocence, treating females like flowers, and decency in mixed company?
Are we traditional catholics or not? Or are we Sunday only Catholics who behave as the rest of the pagan world at all times except when at mass?
There is something gravely wrong with people who defend this sermon.
I don't see how a 13 year-old wouldn't already know of such terms.Proper upbringing, that's how.
Proper upbringing, that's how.::)
A 13 yr old is a young ADULT. They are either going through or about to go through puberty. With hormones and concupiscence. Now's a good time to start talking about reality. They're gonna talk about with their friends; might as well be proactive. Our Lady knew about the 'birds and bees' at 15, if not sooner....
Beautiful post, Neil. Thank you!This!!
. Yet knowing all this she was not afraid of the operation! She only had one fear.
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You would never guess what her one fear was, especially if you think that children ought to be proactively informed about sɛҳuąƖ sins.
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Her one and only fear was that during preparation for surgery, the exposure of her body to the hospital workers might be a near occasion for them to commit a mental sin of impurity in their hearts. Modern perverts will assure you that since there is no victim there is nothing wrong. But the something wrong is in the heart of the one who believes that, because the victim is one's own soul.
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Now, tell me that anyone knowing about her suffering willingly to OVERCOME in others the sin of entirely subjective impurity and appreciating her sacrifice to the point of willingness to imitate her heroic virtue, could ever bring himself to enjoy the illicit allurement of sinful impurity.
I don't see how a 13 year-old wouldn't already know of such terms.
A 13 yr old is a young ADULT. They are either going through or about to go through puberty. With hormones and concupiscence. Now's a good time to start talking about reality. Theyre gonna talk about with their friends; might as well be proactive. Our Lady knew about the 'birds and bees' at 15, if not sooner...
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I disagree.
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Take two saints for example, St. Maria Goretti and Jacinta Marto of Fatima. I would call the latter "St.," but I don't want to start a flame war.
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Do you think they were "young adults" and not children? Do you think they knew all about hormones and concupiscence and "realtiy?" Do you think they heard it all from their friends or that their parents were "proactive?"
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Everyone who knew them testified they were unquestionably virgins, and never spoke a single word of impurity nor ever hinted at having any curiosity or interest in the topic. These were both childhood saints who directed the ENTIRETY of their will toward immediate and total rejection of any slightest inclination toward impurity, or sins of the flesh. They would not have the first thing to do with it, any more than St. Philomena would or the Blessed Virgin Mary herself would have.
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St. Maria Goretti suffered dozens of knife stabbing wounds from her assailant, Allesandro, who tried very hard to kill her when she firmly refused his impure advances. She was found bleeding to death, and was put on a horse-drawn wagon (which is very bumpy) and taken several miles that way (in agony) to get medical attention. The doctor speaking to her about her wounds heard her repeat that she only wished to forgive Allesandro. Does that sound like an adult with "proactive concupiscence?"
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My favorite example is the last days of Blessed Jacinta of Fatima. She had the opportunity to die peacefully and soon and was assured of going directly to heaven; or alternatively, to remain for yet a while on earth during which time she would suffer more for the remission of sins and for the Holy Father, who would have much to suffer. She didn't hesitate to choose the latter.
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Our Lady foretold she would therefore go to Lisbon and endure much pain, and would die alone without any other mortal present, but that Our Lady herself would be there to comfort her. That is exactly what happened. On the way, Dr. Castro Freire diagnosed her with "Purulent pleurisy with fistula, osteitis of the 7th and 8th ribs of the same side." If you don't know what that means, ask a nurse. Purulent is oozing pus. Pleurisy is a very painful infection of the flat cells of the pleura, the lining of the lung cavity. It makes breathing excruciating. Fistula is an open wound the size of a fist. Osteitis is bone infection, very painful, perhaps worse than pleurisy. Under all these conditions she would go into surgery without anesthesia. They didn't have an effective pain solution for her in those days. Yet knowing all this she was not afraid of the operation! She only had one fear.
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You would never guess what her one fear was, especially if you think that children ought to be proactively informed about sɛҳuąƖ sins.
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Her one and only fear was that during preparation for surgery, the exposure of her body to the hospital workers might be a near occasion for them to commit a mental sin of impurity in their hearts. Modern perverts will assure you that since there is no victim there is nothing wrong. But the something wrong is in the heart of the one who believes that, because the victim is one's own soul.
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Now, tell me that anyone knowing about her suffering willingly to OVERCOME in others the sin of entirely subjective impurity and appreciating her sacrifice to the point of willingness to imitate her heroic virtue, could ever bring himself to enjoy the illicit allurement of sinful impurity.
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St. Maria Goretti died offering her pains to the one who tried to kill her that way, and Blessed Jacinta died never having been accosted but nonetheless willingly offered her pains for the conversion of sinners, the reparation of sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary and for the Holy Father because he would have much to suffer.
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These are models of virtue whose intentions we are well advised to remember, and strive to pursue ourselves.
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no girly niceness or incomprehensible abstraction from him
What draws my attention to the sermon is saying how far self-centredness is going today with the aid of new technology and the growth of substitution and simulation to replace or manipulate the natural order.
I've read quite a lot on Fatima, and have never heard of the above story about Blessed Jacinta. It's possible that it's credible, but it doesn't seem like it. Where did you get this information from?Meg, I missed this part in Neil's long post. Thanks for pointing it out.
I disagree.Nadir,
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Take two saints for example, St. Maria Goretti and Jacinta Marto of Fatima. I would call the latter "St.," but I don't want to start a flame war.
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Do you think they were "young adults" and not children? Do you think they knew all about hormones and concupiscence and "realtiy?"
Fr. Pfeiffer guarantees that you don't fall asleep during his sermons; no girly niceness or incomprehensible abstraction from him; go to the SSPX or any other antique simulation if you want that and know your happy family comfort zones remain intact. I often wonder how children and retarded adults are spared the violence and depravity so illuminated in the bible and can cope with the flesh and blood sacrifice of the Mass, let alone the lurid mechanics of the Crucifiction. Perhaps they grow numb to such things over the years and wait to be free of their parents' and grandparents' 'weird' religion!
Fr. Pfeiffer gone mad? I'll tell you all who's gone mad. It's at least half of CI forum members. Imagine such a topic of doubtful worth, i.e. worthless, commanding this kind of attention! You keyboard warriors are moving the number of views closer to 3000 with each passing minute.
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not so much as be named among you, as becometh saints: Or obscenity, or foolish talking, or scurrility, which is to no purpose; but rather giving of thanks.
Even if a particular 13-year-old "knew" the terms, to hear them repeatedly used in crude and vulgar ways by a priest during Mass can't exactly be edifying.How exactly were they "repeatedly used in crude and vulgar ways" in the sermon, again?
Nadir,Exactly. Not only that, but ignorance at late ages makes it hard for such sheltered individuals to respond to them, and therefore don't know how to react and (most importantly) resist such temptations once they are finally exposed to them. That's why it is important to denounce such sins(by exposing them first, of course) in order to ensure the sheep know which lines not to cross in order to stay on the straight-and-narrow.
Look, your post was wonderful and the above saints were absolutely lovers of purity. No one should disagree with that. But it doesn't answer my question - maybe I'm not explaining it correctly?
You imply that these 2 young women were pure because they were ignorant of concupiscence. That makes no sense and devalues their purity. Is a 2 year old "pure" because they are innocent? No, they are just innocent. A 2 year old cannot be pure, because the virtue of purity necessisarily requires one to be exposed to, or have temptations against vice. One cannot have heroic virtue without overcoming the temptations which seek to conquer the virtue.
Jacinta was very pure, but she died at 10, so doesn't really fit my example, as she's not an adolescent. St Maria Goretti certainly had knowledge of what her assailant was doing because she kept yelling to him that "God is not pleased; this is not what God wants." This is when he went into a rage and started stabbing her.
I guess my questions are:
1. Why is a realistic, mature, catholic introduction to marriage and reproduction considered by some to be "impure"? This is a very puritantical and uncatholic outlook on marriage.
2. Why is it assumed that to keep a child "pure" means you keep them ignorant? This is not logical.
3. Why is it assumed that knowledge will lead to impurity?
How exactly were they "repeatedly used in crude and vulgar ways" in the sermon, again?
Exactly.
Fr. Pfeiffer gone mad? I'll tell you all who's gone mad. It's at least half of CI forum members. Imagine such a topic of doubtful worth, i.e. worthless, commanding this kind of attention! You keyboard warriors are moving the number of views closer to 3000 with each passing minute.Considering that OLMC is still "in business" there must still be some supporters.
I did not view this video, but can pretty well figure out its contents by piecing together the indignant throw-away remarks from breathless forum members. My goodness, how disgraceful CI commentary has become. Matthew should lock the thread immediately. But he probably won't. He needs a lot of eyes viewing the ads, and making online purchases, I guess. (BTW, Matthew, if you don't like my remarks, ban me. Obviously, I wouldn't care a damn.)
As for Fr. P. The man is a certifiable screwball with his cat's paw Mexican always hovering close at hand. You ought to be ashamed giving this fallen cleric in the white cassock so much attention. He apparently highlighted in vulgar detail certain mortal sins of the flesh, but I'm not so certain that some of you who viewed this video atrocity did not yourselves commit mortal sin merely by watching it.
Of course, the likes of Wessex was eventually be enticed into entering the discussion. He is irrepressible.
Well, there you go. See what your frenzied efforts have unleashed? Obviously, you folks didn't fall asleep. You were not treated to "girly niceness," for certain. And the 'weird' religion of your parents and grandparents received a 'healthy' trashing. Are you proud and happy now?
I expect and await a number of thumbs-down from resident CI morons.
Just listen to the sermon. I'm not going to go to the trouble of transcribing every single instance where he used the term. Anyone with proper sensibilities and sense of decorum can recognize the crudeness and vulgarity.I did listen to the sermon, and(if you were paying attention), I said that I don't think he should have explicitly mentioned "masturbation" or "prostitutes" in it.
Another Pfeiffer cult member and lackey?Actually, I have been disillusioned from him and his dysfunctional "seminary" for more than a year now. Too bad I didn't realize it sooner.
I did listen to the sermon, and(if you were paying attention), I said that I don't think he should have explicitly mentioned "masturbation" or "prostitutes" in it.NP, it is more that these words are not appropriate to use at all, certainly inappropriate in Church.
However, though these words may be inappropriate to use in front of children, that doesn't mean they were necessarily used in a crude manner. I don't see how mentioning them in order to denounce them for the good of the faithful counts as "crass talking".
Maybe for "delicate flowers" as some of you admire, but not for mature adults.
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not so much as be named among you, as becometh saints: Or obscenity, or foolish talking, or scurrility, which is to no purpose; but rather giving of thanks.
NP, it is more that these words are not appropriate to use at all, certainly inappropriate in Church.You honestly think that it would be inappropriate for adults to use these words when talking amongst themselves in a conversation that's not am inherently impure one?
Meg, I missed this part in Neil's long post. Thanks for pointing it out.
This must be an accurate account and inline with Holy Jacinta's warning about the sins of impurity, sending most souls to Hell.
Let's play it again:
(https://childrenoftheeucharist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/BlessedJacintaColor.jpg)
Yet knowing all this she was not afraid of the operation! She only had one fear.
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You would never guess what her one fear was, especially if you think that children ought to be proactively informed about sɛҳuąƖ sins.
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Her one and only fear was that during preparation for surgery, the exposure of her body to the hospital workers might be a near occasion for them to commit a mental sin of impurity in their hearts.
Modern perverts will assure you that since there is no victim there is nothing wrong. But the something wrong is in the heart of the one who believes that, because the victim is one's own soul.
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Now, tell me that anyone knowing about her suffering willingly to OVERCOME in others the sin of entirely subjective impurity and appreciating her sacrifice to the point of willingness to imitate her heroic virtue, could ever bring himself to enjoy the illicit allurement of sinful impurity.
You honestly think that it would be inappropriate for adults to use these words when talking amongst themselves in a conversation that's not am inherently impure one?It is firstly inappropriate to use those words in Church, in the presence of Our Lord in the tabernacle. There is no reason on earth for them, not ever imo. In private conversation with your own child while educating them, it MIGHT be appropriate only if they push for it, but there are much more prudential ways to get the message across without mentioning it by name.
It is firstly inappropriate to use those words in Church, in the presence of Our Lord in the tabernacle. There is no reason on earth for them, not ever imo. In private conversation with your own child while educating them, it MIGHT be appropriate only if they push for it, but there are much more prudential ways to get the message across without mentioning it by name.It IS appropriate if they push for it or if they need it. In which case, it would be best to mention it by name.
The sermon was too explicit - the words too explicit. I only got to the first part. The spiritual books say that purity and humility are two subjects that are delicate - to say too much or say the wrong thing is to wilt them, like a delicate flower. And yes, St. Paul says some things shouldn't even be mentioned. A word/phrase alluding to what the priest has in mind (and he'd better be right about the need of it) can be acceptable and effective -- but you don't wade whole hog into the subject with crass vocabulary that makes those trapped in the pew not just uncomfortable but perhaps vulnerable to impure thoughts or temptations, especially if it carries on and on.
We don't have sex ed classes for, among other things, reasons exactly along these lines. If one is modest, one is most careful about anything approaching the subject of purity - much less spewing broadside, rough words or expressions that one would not say if Our Lady was sitting there listening. But some of us go where angels would fear to tread. His approach/method, was out of place.
Nadir,Pax Vobis, Your questions should be directed to Neil. It was not my post. I just thought it a font of wisdom and I thanked him for it.
Look, your post was wonderful and the above saints were absolutely lovers of purity. No one should disagree with that. But it doesn't answer my question - maybe I'm not explaining it correctly?
You imply that these 2 young women were pure because they were ignorant of concupiscence. That makes no sense and devalues their purity. Is a 2 year old "pure" because they are innocent? No, they are just innocent. A 2 year old cannot be pure, because the virtue of purity necessisarily requires one to be exposed to, or have temptations against vice. One cannot have heroic virtue without overcoming the temptations which seek to conquer the virtue.
Jacinta was very pure, but she died at 10, so doesn't really fit my example, as she's not an adolescent. St Maria Goretti certainly had knowledge of what her assailant was doing because she kept yelling to him that "God is not pleased; this is not what God wants." This is when he went into a rage and started stabbing her.
I guess my questions are:
1. Why is a realistic, mature, catholic introduction to marriage and reproduction considered by some to be "impure"? This is a very puritantical and uncatholic outlook on marriage.
2. Why is it assumed that to keep a child "pure" means you keep them ignorant? This is not logical.
3. Why is it assumed that knowledge will lead to impurity?
Purity means understanding God's plan for reproduction and understanding the beauty of it and how the fight to keep it special is God's will and is a gift to one's future spouse. A positive outlook on reproduction is better than avoiding the issue. Keeping an adolescent ignorant, in my opinion, keeps them with a childlike understanding of reality, when they are fighting adult battles of concupiscence. Just as attraction to sin is part of our fallen nature, so concupiscense is part of every person's battle to heaven. One cannot "protect" their adolescent in a bubble and expect that this will somehow make them pure. On the contrary, it just keeps them ignorant of the beauty of purity and why it's special, in real terms. Ignorance will not lessen the battle against the flesh, it will only be harder because the battle will be fought to "avoid evil" instead of "protecting good". And human psychology has proven that it is easier to fight for something good rather than just fight aimlessly against evil.
I guess my questions are:Nevertheess, I would make some comments.
1. Why is a realistic, mature, catholic introduction to marriage and reproduction considered by some to be "impure"? This is a very puritantical and uncatholic outlook on marriage.
2. Why is it assumed that to keep a child "pure" means you keep them ignorant? This is not logical.
3. Why is it assumed that knowledge will lead to impurity?
Purity means understanding God's plan for reproduction and understanding the beauty of it and how the fight to keep it special is God's will and is a gift to one's future spouse. A positive outlook on reproduction is better than avoiding the issue. Keeping an adolescent ignorant, in my opinion, keeps them with a childlike understanding of reality, when they are fighting adult battles of concupiscence. Just as attraction to sin is part of our fallen nature, so concupiscense is part of every person's battle to heaven. One cannot "protect" their adolescent in a bubble and expect that this will somehow make them pure. On the contrary, it just keeps them ignorant of the beauty of purity and why it's special, in real terms. Ignorance will not lessen the battle against the flesh, it will only be harder because the battle will be fought to "avoid evil" instead of "protecting good". And human psychology has proven that it is easier to fight for something good rather than just fight aimlessly against evil.
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Quote from: Pax Vobis on Today at 07:28:58 AM (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/fr-pfeiffer-gone-mad-very-inappropriate-sermon/msg582742/#msg582742)QuoteI guess my questions are:.
1. Why is a realistic, mature, catholic introduction to marriage and reproduction considered by some to be "impure"? This is a very puritantical and uncatholic outlook on marriage.
2. Why is it assumed that to keep a child "pure" means you keep them ignorant? This is not logical.
3. Why is it assumed that knowledge will lead to impurity?
Purity means understanding God's plan for reproduction and understanding the beauty of it and how the fight to keep it special is God's will and is a gift to one's future spouse. A positive outlook on reproduction is better than avoiding the issue. Keeping an adolescent ignorant, in my opinion, keeps them with a childlike understanding of reality, when they are fighting adult battles of concupiscence. Just as attraction to sin is part of our fallen nature, so concupiscense is part of every person's battle to heaven. One cannot "protect" their adolescent in a bubble and expect that this will somehow make them pure. On the contrary, it just keeps them ignorant of the beauty of purity and why it's special, in real terms. Ignorance will not lessen the battle against the flesh, it will only be harder because the battle will be fought to "avoid evil" instead of "protecting good". And human psychology has proven that it is easier to fight for something good rather than just fight aimlessly against evil.
Nevertheess, I would make some comments.
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1. realistic, mature, catholic introduction to marriage and reproduction should be tailored to the needs of the receiver, either individually or as a couple. 12 to 14 year olds do not need to hear the same thing as those who are close approaching marriage. Discretion is not very puritantical and uncatholic.
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2. A child is not a subject for sex instruction, which can actually interfere in their natural learning processes. Children should be allowed to be children - without being burdened with knowledge they have no need of. Children can be naturally inquisitive and their questions should answered in such a way that their natural innocence is not disturbed by any unnecessary information that they are not asking for.
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3. Knowledge should be at the appropriate time, by the parents, and in a manner which will lead the child to understand God's plan and have a healthy attitude to sex. Knowledge does not lead to impurity, and neither does lack of it.
I think you have a poor understanding of what purity is. Of course a 2 year old is pure and innocent. Purity is more than a virtue. It means uncontaminated. Parents have a duty to keep their children uncontaminated as far as they are able. That means protecting the from unwanted influences.
There are folk posting here who unfortunately have been contaminated by what is loosely known as modern "education"
1. Why is a realistic, mature, catholic introduction to marriage and reproduction considered by some to be "impure"? This is a very puritantical and uncatholic outlook on marriage..
2. Why is it assumed that to keep a child "pure" means you keep them ignorant? This is not logical..
3. Why is it assumed that knowledge will lead to impurity?.
Purity means understanding God's plan for.reproduction[procreation] and understanding the beauty of it and how the fight to keep it special is God's will and is a gift to one's future spouse. A positive outlook onreproduction[procreation] is better than avoiding the issue.
I'm not understanding the point you are making here, Incredulous. I'm contesting that blessed Jacinta ever had that concern in the first place. It just sounds odd. In what account (book?) have you read it? I'd like to know where this account comes from. I don't think it's true.
Certainly not, I would have been mortified, and such things should never be spoken of in mixed company, delicacy demands it.One of the Fathers of the Church (can't remember exactly which one) said:
I couldn't find the reference Meg. Maybe Neil has something?
I recall reading an antique book on the Fatima children. It was one that had been published, perhaps in the 1940's and was free, not done through a publishing house. It contained many insights into Bl. Jacinta's and Bl. Francisco's final days. It seems they died of the Spanish influenza pandemic?
Jacinta's physician had cut a whole in her chest to try and relieve pressure there.
He took out some ribs and her suffering must have been terrible?
Of course, Our Lady foretold that she would die alone and she offered it up for the conversion of poor sinners.
The emphasis on modesty in the hospital seems to be inline with her piety and concern for purity. That is my point.
One of the Fathers of the Church (can't remember exactly which one) said:According to this website the quote is from Calvin.
"The ears of the people are holier than the mouths of the priests". I read that many, many years ago and was never sure what he really meant--until now, after listening to Fr.P's words and then observing the reactions from the people here.
Typical of Fr. Pfeiffer, the grown-up, incorrigible "fat-boy", who has always sought after attention.It's Advent, so I'd want to apologize for breaking charity, and making this statement.
The fact the OLMC's priests are under the control of the fake lay-exorcist, Paul Hernandez, should put a chill down our spines.
Just ignore them.
I'm not understanding the point you are making here, Incredulous. I'm contesting that blessed Jacinta ever had that concern in the first place. It just sounds odd. In what account (book?) have you read it? I'd like to know where this account comes from. I don't think it's true."That concern" being: Her one and only fear was that during preparation for surgery, the exposure of her body to the hospital workers might be a near occasion for them to commit a mental sin of impurity in their hearts.
Typical of Fr. Pfeiffer, the grown-up, incorrigible "fat-boy", who has always sought after attention.
The fact the OLMC's priests are under the control of the fake lay-exorcist, Paul Hernandez, should put a chill down our spines.
Just ignore them.
"That concern" being: Her one and only fear was that during preparation for surgery, the exposure of her body to the hospital workers might be a near occasion for them to commit a mental sin of impurity in their hearts.
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I also had heard, not read, this. I don't see any reason to doubt it.
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Normal children raised in our society have an innate sense of modesty, and we are talking about a little Catholic girl who had personal communications with the Blessed Virgin, who had warned her of souls falling into Hell for reasons of impurity. So should not be surprised at this claim. In fact we should think it not only credible and true.
So you had heard of this, but not read it. I suppose that makes it true for you. So far, no one has provided any actual verifiable source for this claim. Blessed Jacinata didn't have that many people around her when she was ill in the hospital who could have heard her say this, and then passed it on. Who was it that claimed that she said this? Not Sister Lucy, as far as I know.Meg, it is a shame that you have such an offensive manner of speaking.
http://www.fatimacrusader.com/truestory/pdf/tspg65.pdfThanks for the research and source Merry! :chef:
The bottom of page 71 -
"Yet she appears to have suffered more from the humiliation of having to expose her body and to place herself into the hands of the strange doctors."
Incredulous QuoteIt's Advent, so I'd want to apologize for breaking charity, and making this statement.AMEN :pray:
As discouraging as the OLMC situation is, I should keep my patience and prayers for them.
:pray:
Meg, it is a shame that you have such an offensive manner of speaking.
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I have no desire or need to prove it and it not an article of faith. My only reason for my post was to point out that is a very reasonable thing to believe that a Catholic child who had warnings from the Blessed Mother to pray for poor sinners who might otherwise be headed for hell, would care about being seen naked by doctors and that she might care about the state of their souls.
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And as I said, I heard it, not read it, so no "actual verifiable source".
Actually, Nadir, you just don't like the fact that I challenged you on the subject. You can't seem to handle that..
Fanny, why are you obsessed with the corruption at OLMC? It's one thing to point out a sermon you disagree with. It's quite another to continue the negativity with posts which are nothing but heresay and gossip.Charity to others is never sinful.
"And whosoever shall scandalize oneof these little ones that believe in me; it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he were cast into the sea." |