Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia  (Read 1723 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15064
  • Reputation: +9980/-3161
  • Gender: Male
Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
« on: August 03, 2020, 02:27:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Listen here beginning at 7:58

    Are you convinced?

    I am not.

    It is clear what I heard (and what you will hear):


    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Miseremini

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3750
    • Reputation: +2794/-238
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #1 on: August 03, 2020, 02:57:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Why does he have his maniple on?
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 3475
    • Reputation: +2005/-447
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #2 on: August 03, 2020, 03:04:14 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • He blames the quality of the recording for people's notion that the words were not pronounced correctly. This is completely false. The recording was plenty clear enough, and we heard exactly what Webster said just fine. And what we heard was not the correct words.
    .
    Here is the essence of Fr. Pfeiffer's argument:
    .


    Quote
    [Fr. Pfeiffer in the video:] Those who are familiar with St. Thomas Aquinas recognize that what is the rule of the Church about the validity of a sacrament? When a minister [...] is saying the words of the sacrament, if any ordinary man can tell they were saying those words, they were saying the words that were in that book, and they were pronouncing the words in that book to make the consecration happen, or make an ordination happen, or make Christ present on the altar, and any ordinary man can tell that these are the words he was striving to say, and therefore [sic] these sacraments are valid. However, he did say all the words correctly anyway [??!!], but in the recording it doesn't come out perfectly ...

    .
    First of all, if he really believed the nonsense he says here that simply attempting to say the words from the book is enough for validity, it makes me wonder why he repeated the sacrament the next day at all. Be that as it may, the principle he gives is completely false. But according to Fr. Halligan, a Dominican theologian who wrote pre-Vatican 2:
    .

    Quote
    St. Thomas notes that, if the change in the words is at the beginning of the words, the sense is generally altered essentially or substantially, but not usually if the change takes place at the end of the words. If the corrupt forms cannot have other than a sacramental sense, they generally remain valid forms. Thus the separation of individual words of or syllables does not constitute a substantial alteration, unless the interval is long enough to alter the meaning of the sentence (more easily admissible when syllables are separated). In such a case the moral unity of the form as one complete prayer is destroyed by the interruption and also by such grammatical changes or mistakes as could actually change the meaning of the form. Substantial alteration may also be risked by faulty articulation or by clipping words through haste. In practice, where a complete word is de facto interrupted through a pause between syllables, it is advisable to repeat the word, unless the interruption is extremely slight.

    .
    Almost all the possible invalidating errors mentioned as examples happen at least once in the video.
    .
    And without footage of the second consecration, we are stuck without any proof of Fr. Pfeiffer's consecration, and strong doubt that the second one, if it happened, would have been any better.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41862
    • Reputation: +23919/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #3 on: August 03, 2020, 03:23:49 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Yes, there are too many contradictions here.

    So there was the initial story relayed by Tradman from those within the group that the MC noticed the problem right away and that a conditional consecration took place right after the ceremony.  This would not have been a function of a poor recording.

    But now +?Pfeiffer is saying that the conditional consecration took place the following morning.

    He says at first that there were no doubt about the essential form, but then decides the following morning that there was sufficient doubt to perform a conditional consecration.  If there's no doubt, then it's sinful to perform a conditional consecration.  Despite there being no doubt, he concedes that +Webster did "slightly mispronounce" one word, slightly enough to justify conditional consecration.

    Then he claims to have access to a superior audio recording.  At another time he says, that they "cleaned up" the audio ... whatever that means.

    We had another agent on CI here claiming that it was just a pronunciation issue.  +?Pfeiffer also says there was a pronunciation issue (albeit a "slight" one).

    So was it a pronunciation issue or was it a problem with the audio quality?  When you come up with two different explanations for what took place, that's prima facie evidence that you have already come to a conclusion and are seeking to justify it after the fact.

    No, as Fr. Chazal points out, it's very obvious that Bishop Webster is struggling with the Latin and does not understand it ... and the slip-ups are obviously a function of that.  He stumbles throughout the entire preface, and he does not recognize the "comple" begins a new thought and a new sentence, does not understand that in sacerdote tuo (in sacerdotibus tuis) actually represents two OPTIONS, one of which must be selected (this is incredibly common in Sacramental texts, e.g. Baptisms ... so I don't see how this would not be familiar to a 20-year priest), and he gets so messed up towards the end that he has to pause for 5 seconds.  So I agree with Fr. Chazal that it comes across that he does not understand what he's reading.  This was by no means attributable to just sloppy pronunciation, i.e. how you pronounce certain vowels.  When he was not stumbling, he was actually fairly consistent with the pronunciation and it was easy to pick up how he rendered various vowels.

    Offline Venantius0518

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 277
    • Reputation: +62/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #4 on: August 03, 2020, 04:05:22 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, there are too many contradictions here.

    So there was the initial story relayed by Tradman from those within the group that the MC noticed the problem right away and that a conditional consecration took place right after the ceremony.  This would not have been a function of a poor recording.

    But now +?Pfeiffer is saying that the conditional consecration took place the following morning.

    He says at first that there were no doubt about the essential form, but then decides the following morning that there was sufficient doubt to perform a conditional consecration.  If there's no doubt, then it's sinful to perform a conditional consecration.  Despite there being no doubt, he concedes that +Webster did "slightly mispronounce" one word, slightly enough to justify conditional consecration.

    Then he claims to have access to a superior audio recording.  At another time he says, that they "cleaned up" the audio ... whatever that means.

    We had another agent on CI here claiming that it was just a pronunciation issue.  +?Pfeiffer also says there was a pronunciation issue (albeit a "slight" one).

    So was it a pronunciation issue or was it a problem with the audio quality?  When you come up with two different explanations for what took place, that's prima facie evidence that you have already come to a conclusion and are seeking to justify it after the fact.

    No, as Fr. Chazal points out, it's very obvious that Bishop Webster is struggling with the Latin and does not understand it ... and the slip-ups are obviously a function of that.  He stumbles throughout the entire preface, and he does not recognize the "comple" begins a new thought and a new sentence, does not understand that in sacerdote tuo (in sacerdotibus tuis) actually represents two OPTIONS, one of which must be selected (this is incredibly common in Sacramental texts, e.g. Baptisms ... so I don't see how this would not be familiar to a 20-year priest), and he gets so messed up towards the end that he has to pause for 5 seconds.  So I agree with Fr. Chazal that it comes across that he does not understand what he's reading.  This was by no means attributable to just sloppy pronunciation, i.e. how you pronounce certain vowels.  When he was not stumbling, he was actually fairly consistent with the pronunciation and it was easy to pick up how he rendered various vowels.
    Absolutely.
    I wonder if he even knows when he is lying anymore....


    Offline Stanley N

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1208
    • Reputation: +530/-484
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #5 on: August 03, 2020, 04:30:22 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I watched some of the videos of Fr. Pfeiffer's ceremonies. A few things seemed odd. Aside from overall sloppiness, two particulars caught my attention
    - a bishop says "pax vobis" after the gloria; Fr. Pfeiffer says it other times (eg, before postcommunion)
    - a bishop can have a "full" hand washing after the ablutions; Fr. Pfeiffer has an extra hand washing after the postcommunion

    Neither old pre-1962 ceremonies books, nor Econe ordinations, nor other extraordinary form pontifical masses show what Fr. Pfeiffer does. (I found the Econe 2020 ordinations a striking contrast: the bishop is able to let the MCs direct the ceremony, while he is clearly comfortable doing what he is supposed to do and speaking the language.)

    I'm eastern rite and there is just about zero chance I will ever have occasion to interact with Fr. Pfeiffer. But I was involved with Roman rite traditionalism until about 2002, before which I read several ceremonies books to prep for some pontifical masses for confirmations. if nearly 20 years later I still remember enough to have questions about Fr. Pfeiffer following the rubrics for a bishop, I wonder what active Roman trads think.

    Since he or someone associated with him must be checking cathinfo, I would assume he or his MCs will fix or address these issues in an upcoming video.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31179
    • Reputation: +27095/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #6 on: August 03, 2020, 04:50:30 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • He always brings +ABL into it -- taking his name in vain, as it were. He has no business associating himself with the Archbishop anymore. He was ordained a priest by an SSPX bishop, but that was an increasing number of years ago. But his recent actions constitute a BREAK from that group, that mission, and even that theology.

    Him seeking consecration from a bishop FAR OUTSIDE +ABL's line of succession is quite appropriate -- it shows just how clearly he has severed his connection with the old SSPX and its mission

    The mainstream Resistance, on the other hand, has clearly inherited and taken up +ABL's mission, as they are actively performing that mission on a daily basis. The Resistance outside Pfeifferville has 3 bishops consecrated by one of +ABL's own bishops -- the faithful one. THAT is the group that can plaster photos of +ABL all over their website, and quote the Archbishop in all their sermons and talks.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41862
    • Reputation: +23919/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #7 on: August 03, 2020, 05:37:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • He always brings +ABL into it -- taking his name in vain, as it were. He has no business associating himself with the Archbishop anymore. 

    Not only that, be he very strongly implies that he is the ONLY "true son" of +Lefebvre left, that both the SSPX and the Resistance have broken with +Lefebvre.


    Offline Venantius0518

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 277
    • Reputation: +62/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #8 on: August 03, 2020, 05:57:37 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Not only that, be he very strongly implies that he is the ONLY "true son" of +Lefebvre left, that both the SSPX and the Resistance have broken with +Lefebvre.
    Both resistance camps say the same thing.
    They are both wrong.

    Offline RevolveBooks

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 89
    • Reputation: +70/-16
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #9 on: August 03, 2020, 06:10:30 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • These tactics are straight out of the malignant narcissist's playbook.  He's claiming there was no error because he's trying to get ahead of the narrative.  It's the pre-emptive defense.  He's worried that Webster is going to go public with an announcement that there was no conditional reconsecration.  Some of the narc tools used by Pfeiffer:

    • smear campaign (maligning Webster, feeneyites, sedes)
    • gaslighting (there was no defect, you didn't hear anything, you don't understand St. Thomas)
    • blameshifting (I was forced to take this step because +Williamson wouldn't help me)
    • projection (Fr. Chazal was the one who wanted to be a bishop, not me)
    • victim mentality (I've been abandoned by my friends and supporters, I have no help)
    • word salad (well, I, um, um, um, that's because, you see, you've got to understand, it wasn't like that)
    • generalizing (the New Mass is from hell, +Williamson supports the New Mass, +Williamson is condemned)
    • stalking (showing up uninvited to consecrations, ordinations, funerals)
    • triangulation (invoking +ABL, saying that Pablo is the bad cop, bragging about his badass daddy)

    So my prediction is that some time in the next few days Pfeiffer will admit there was no do-over because "there was no defect of form so it wasn't necessary".

    Offline Venantius0518

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 277
    • Reputation: +62/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #10 on: August 03, 2020, 09:11:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • These tactics are straight out of the malignant narcissist's playbook.  He's claiming there was no error because he's trying to get ahead of the narrative.  It's the pre-emptive defense.  He's worried that Webster is going to go public with an announcement that there was no conditional reconsecration.  Some of the narc tools used by Pfeiffer:

    • smear campaign (maligning Webster, feeneyites, sedes)
    • gaslighting (there was no defect, you didn't hear anything, you don't understand St. Thomas)
    • blameshifting (I was forced to take this step because +Williamson wouldn't help me)
    • projection (Fr. Chazal was the one who wanted to be a bishop, not me)
    • victim mentality (I've been abandoned by my friends and supporters, I have no help)
    • word salad (well, I, um, um, um, that's because, you see, you've got to understand, it wasn't like that)
    • generalizing (the New Mass is from hell, +Williamson supports the New Mass, +Williamson is condemned)
    • stalking (showing up uninvited to consecrations, ordinations, funerals)
    • triangulation (invoking +ABL, saying that Pablo is the bad cop, bragging about his badass daddy)

    So my prediction is that some time in the next few days Pfeiffer will admit there was no do-over because "there was no defect of form so it wasn't necessary".
    Fr pf to a T.
    some seminarians are already saying there was no defect of form so a conditional consecration was unnecessary. 


    Offline Seraphina

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2931
    • Reputation: +2048/-184
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #11 on: August 04, 2020, 12:34:00 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • A lot of stammering!  Even if the words were right the first time and the second time, there is still positive doubt in my mind regarding the Thuc line.  Sorry, but as Archbishop LeFebrve said, “The faithful have a right to know that their priests and Sacraments are trustworthy.”  (A paraphrase). I know Fr. Pfeiffer is a priest, no problem there.  But bishop?  What about things like Holy Oils?  If he’s not a bishop, then Confirmations, the exorcisms at baptism, anointing at Last Rites, and worst of all, Ordinations of men who are not priests!  Worthless at best, sacrilegious at worst.  
    How, for example, can one know if the Host in the tabernacle in Boston is Our Lord or just a thin wheat wafer? 

    Offline Stanley N

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1208
    • Reputation: +530/-484
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #12 on: August 04, 2020, 01:56:21 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Bishop Pfeiffer explains it here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VjAf94rfQ5o
    The thing is that there must be some reason to do a conditional sacrament. 
    If he had no doubt about the words, for what reason was the form repeated?

    Offline Venantius0518

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 277
    • Reputation: +62/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #13 on: August 04, 2020, 07:52:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The thing is that there must be some reason to do a conditional sacrament.
    If he had no doubt about the words, for what reason was the form repeated?
    Exactly.
    To do a conditional consecration when one is not needed is a sin.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Pfeiffer's Unconvincing Apologia
    « Reply #14 on: August 04, 2020, 10:27:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is all completely false. 
    Already refuted by Ladislaus (and anyone else who heard the botched form).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."