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Author Topic: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson  (Read 10485 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2023, 05:51:40 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 15, 2023, 11:02:48 PM
Obviously not.  But a papal-elect is not insignificant either.  Some argue a bishop-elect or a papal-elect would have immediate (human/govt) jurisdiction while waiting for the full, spiritual office to be fulfilled. 


So, arguably, the papal chair is filled “in potentia” from a spiritual aspect (ie latent, unused powers) and in reality, from a govt/human aspect. 
I understand what you were/are saying PV.  However, Comrade's question was how the lack of a valid episcopal consecration affects Bergoglio as pope, not whether he has the potential to become pope. 

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Offline 2Vermont

Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2023, 05:56:24 AM »
Quote from: ByzCat3000 on April 15, 2023, 11:49:54 PM
I don’t think Matthew thinks there zero doubt that Francis is the pope, just that it’s not his job to solve that problem

He wouldn’t need to be certain about that one way or another.  Whereas he WOULD need certainty that his own priest is valid.  He’s not saying (I don’t think) that he’s sure about the new bishops one way or another .
OK, understood.  But doesn't Bergoglio as "Bishop of Rome" ordain priests, consecrate holy oils that are used in other sacraments like other bishops do ("Bishop" Huonder comes to mind)?  Wouldn't that affect people's ability to access valid sacraments if even on a smaller scale? 
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2023, 06:07:03 AM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on April 16, 2023, 05:56:24 AM
OK, understood.  But doesn't Bergoglio as "Bishop of Rome" ordain priests, consecrate holy oils that are used in other sacraments like other bishops do ("Bishop" Huonder comes to mind)?  Wouldn't that affect people's ability to access valid sacraments if even on a smaller scale?

These are all arguments in favor of the validity of the NREC.
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Offline MiracleOfTheSun

Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2023, 10:15:04 AM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 16, 2023, 06:07:03 AM
These are all arguments in favor of the validity of the NREC.

Or that we are witnessing the Great Apostasy at work in the Ape Church spoken of by Fulton Sheen.
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2023, 10:56:11 AM »

Quote
However, Comrade's question was how the lack of a valid episcopal consecration affects Bergoglio as pope, not whether he has the potential to become pope. 
Assuming Fr Jorge isn't a bishop (and that's a good assumption) then he would be "pope elect" just like if the Cardinals elected a deacon or some priest to be pope (which is theoretically possible).  In the past, similar situations happened with priests being chosen as the new bishop of a diocese.  Since they weren't bishops yet, they were a "bishop elect".  In olden days, it could take a while for a bishop to travel and consecrate the "bishop elect" so he would be able to run the diocese immediately, from a govt/admin aspect.  


In the same way, as "pope elect" Fr Jorge would, arguably, have immediate govt/human authority but not spiritual authority (until he became a proper bishop and finished the papal ceremonies).  That's what theologians have speculated based on real life episodes in the past.
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