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Author Topic: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand  (Read 2333 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2021, 08:26:02 PM »
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  • Thank you, Maria, you proved my point.  Changes were to the calendar and Holy Week only.  
    .
    The addition of St Jospeh was not part of the original, 62 missal approved by Pope J23.  St Jospeh was added in a 2nd edition by a liturgical commission, so arguably not papal approved.  


    But what is wrong with going with the 1955 Liturgy, especially if it's less "Bugnini" and more in line with St. Pope Pius V's codification?

    Is it only because +ABL approved the 1962 Missal that the R&R stays with it?
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #16 on: July 31, 2021, 09:07:41 PM »
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  • Thank you, Maria, you proved my point.  Changes were to the calendar and Holy Week only.  
    .
    The addition of St Jospeh was not part of the original, 62 missal approved by Pope J23.  St Jospeh was added in a 2nd edition by a liturgical commission, so arguably not papal approved.  


    No Missal was published in 1962, priests kept getting notifications of the changes and adding them to their Altar Missals. When it was printed there were not surprises. Yes, St Joseph's name was added in December that year by the liturgical commission lead by Bugnini but his changes continued until 1975 and he made it clear that the reform was still underway. The 1962 changes were ONLY transitional.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/fr-pagliarani's-sleight-of-hand/msg762733/#msg762733

    The changes posted on the link above are not all:


    Pre-Bugnini Missal                                                                                         Changes in 1962


    Prayers at the Foot of the Altar
     4.
    Always said.
    Prayers at the Foot of the Altar
     4.
    Omitted on (1) The Purification after the Procession, (2) Ash Wednesday after the distribution of ashes, (3) Holy Saturday, (4) Palm Sunday after the Procession, (5) the four Rogation Days after the Procession, and (6) certain other Masses according the new rubrics of the Roman Pontifical.
    The Collect
     5.
    On days of lower rank, in addition to the collect of the day, the collects of Our Lady, Our Lady and All the Saints, Against the Persecutors of the Church, For the Pope, or For the Faithful Departed, etc. are recited.
    The Collect
     5.
    All these collects are abolished.
    6. The commemorations of a lower ranking feast of a saint or a Sunday are made according to the rubrics.6.The commemorations of a lower ranking feast of a saint or a Sunday are either abolished or strictly curtailed, so that on an ordinary Sunday most saints' feasts entirely disappear.
    The Lessons on Ember Days
     7.
    Always recited.
    The Lessons on Ember Days
     7.
    The bulk of the Lessons are optional.
    The Epistle
     8.
    Always read by the celebrant at Solemn Mass as specifically mandated by Pope St. Pius V.
    The Epistle
     8.
    The celebrant at Solemn Mass sits over on the side and listens instead, just as he does at the New Mass.
    The Sequence
     9.
    The Dies Irae must always be sung at a Requiem High Mass.
    The Sequence
     9.

     The Dies Irae at a daily Requiem High Mass is optional.
    The Gospel
     10.
    Always read by the celebrant at Solemn Mass as specifically mandated by Pope St. Pius V.
    The Gospel
     10.
    The celebrant at Solemn Mass listens instead
    The Creed
     11.
    Recited on many feasts according to the rubrics.
    The Creed
     11.
    Suppressed on many feasts (Doctors of the Church, St. Mary Magdalene, the Angels, etc.)
    The Canon of the Mass
     12.
    Unchanged since the time of Pope St. Gregory the Great.
    The Canon of the Mass
     12.
    The name of St. Joseph is inserted; thus the Canon is no longer the "unchanging rule" of worship.
    The Communion of the People
     13.
    The Confiteor, Misereatur, and Indulgentiam are always said before Holy Communion.
    The Communion of the People
     13.
    Abolished.
    The Benedicamus Domino
     14.
    Recited in place of Ite Missa Est on Sundays and Weekdays of Advent and Lent, Vigils, Votive Masses, etc.
    The Benedicamus Domino
     14.
    Abolished, except when there is a procession after Mass.
    The Last Gospel
     15.
    Either the beginning of St. John's Gospel or the proper Last Gospel of an occuring feast ends every Mass.
    The Last Gospel
     15.
    The proper Last Gospel is abolished with one exception. No Last Gospel at all is recited for: (1) the Third Mass of Christmas, (2) Palm Sunday, (3) Holy Thursday, (4) Holy Saturday, (5) any Mass followed by a procession, (6) Requiem Masses followed by the Absolution, and (7) certain other Masses according to the new rubrics of the Roman Pontifical.


    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #17 on: July 31, 2021, 09:33:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    But what is wrong with going with the 1955 Liturgy, especially if it's less "Bugnini" and more in line with St. Pope Pius V's codification?
    The 1955 liturgy is only different from the 1962 liturgy on 3 days of the year - Holy Week.  I don't know if there's anything wrong with the 1955 liturgy.
    .

    Quote
    Is it only because +ABL approved the 1962 Missal that the R&R stays with it?

    Probably because he believed Pius XII was a valid pope, who had the authority to change (non-essentially) the 1955 Holy Week.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #18 on: July 31, 2021, 09:43:24 PM »
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  • Quote
    No Missal was published in 1962,

    1962 refers to the year John23 created the missal.  Sometimes it takes a while to get it printed.  There is a 1st edition of the 1962 missal, which doesn't have St Joseph in the canon.  That's a fact.
    .
    It also does not have the changes to the prayers at the foot of the altar, etc.  Except for Holy Week, it's all calendar changes.

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #19 on: August 01, 2021, 05:30:36 AM »
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  • Quote from Guimares posted by Incredulous:

    Quote
    3. In his letter Fr. Pagialrani made a significant defense of the Tridentine Mass, opposing it to the Novus Ordo Missae. He used strong words, referring to the fight between the two Masses as the fight between God and Satan, which violently implies that Paul VI was a representative of the latter.
     
     However, the SSPX has never said the actual Tridentine Mass, which is the one said from 1570 to 1955, when the reforms made by Pius XII started the changes that resulted in the 1969 New Mass. Instead, all of the SSPX Bishops and priests say the Mass according to the 1962 Missal, which was a transitional step to reach the Novus Ordo. Let us not forget that the three steps of this process – the 1955 reform, the 1962 Missal and the 1969 New Mass – were all works of the same Msgr. Annibale Bugnini (here, here, here, here, here and here).
     


    Quote from Paul VI on Missale Romanum (1969)

    Quote

    https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-vi_apc_19690403_missale-romanum.html


    (First two paragraphs)

    The Roman Missal, promulgated in 1570 by Our predecessor, St. Pius V, by decree of the Council of Trent,(1) has been received by all as one of the numerous and admirable fruits which the holy Council has spread throughout the entire Church of Christ. For four centuries, not only has it furnished the priests of the Latin Rite with the norms for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice, but also the saintly heralds of the Gospel have carried it almost to the entire world. Furthermore, innumerable holy men have abundantly nourished their piety towards God by its readings from Sacred Scripture or by its prayers, whose general arrangement goes back, in essence, to St. Gregory the Great.

    Since that time there has grown and spread among the Christian people the liturgical renewal which, according to Pius XII, Our predecessor of venerable memory, seems to show the signs of God's providence in the present time, a salvific action of the Holy Spirit in His Church.(2) This renewal has also shown clearly that the formulas of the Roman Missal ought to be revised and enriched. The beginning of this renewal was the work of Our predecessor, this same Pius XII, in the restoration of the Paschal Vigil and of the Holy Week Rite,(3) which formed the first stage of updating the Roman Missal for the present-day mentality.

    This is consistent with what Msgr. Bugnini stated in 1962. A transitional missal.
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #20 on: August 01, 2021, 06:46:28 AM »
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  • I get the impression that most sedes would agree with Atila's below statement.  

    "When a person accustomed to the Tridentine Mass sees the '62 Mass, he believes he is seeing the New Mass."

    This was the original protest position of the SSPX's "naughty nine".
    I don't think this was exactly how The Nine presented their issue with the 1962 Missal. However, I do think this was one example they gave of compromising with the Modernists (and that was back in 1983).  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #21 on: August 01, 2021, 08:12:58 PM »
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  • 1962 refers to the year John23 created the missal.  Sometimes it takes a while to get it printed.  There is a 1st edition of the 1962 missal, which doesn't have St Joseph in the canon.  That's a fact.
    .
    It also does not have the changes to the prayers at the foot of the altar, etc.  Except for Holy Week, it's all calendar changes.
    So by adding St. Joseph’s name, they altered the Canon, correct?

    Would this not violate St. Pope Pius V’s rule, that the Canon could not be altered?  
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #22 on: August 01, 2021, 08:30:12 PM »
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  • Thank you all. I finally decided to get a 1955 Missal: Saint Mary - My Everyday Missal, Benziger Brothers, 1955



    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #23 on: August 01, 2021, 08:45:00 PM »
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  • Thank you all. I finally decided to get a 1955 Missal: Saint Mary - My Everyday Missal, Benziger Brothers, 1955
    The 1955 has the Holy Week changes, like 30% of the Holy Week ceremonies were eliminated. Go with a missal from before the Holy Week changes, like 1953 and before. I have a missal from the 1850's and it is identical to 1950. No changes. That's the way it was before Bugnini. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #24 on: August 01, 2021, 08:50:09 PM »
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  • The 1955 has the Holy Week changes, like 30% of the Holy Week ceremonies were eliminated. Go with a missal from before the Holy Week changes, like 1953 and before. I have a missal from the 1850's and it is identical to 1950. No changes. That's the way it was before Bugnini.
    It was described as a 1954 Missal, but printed in 1955 (hence before the changes). If it is not as described, I will get a refund.

    Offline AspiringToHeaven

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      • Jeremiah Alphonsus
    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #25 on: August 01, 2021, 09:33:31 PM »
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  • Tom Naegele asks Father Jenkins questions from viewers about the 1962 missal with the John XXIII changes, dialog Masses from the 1950's, men and women singing in choir together and more.

    -I identify as masked and vaxxed. 
    -Slavish fear is the deadliest virus. 
    -“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power, and of love, and of sobriety.” (2 Tim. 1:7)


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #26 on: August 01, 2021, 09:46:24 PM »
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  • Quote
    So by adding St. Joseph’s name, they altered the Canon, correct?

    Would this not violate St. Pope Pius V’s rule, that the Canon could not be altered?

    Here's the way I look at it:  There is a 1st addition of the 62 missal, approved by Pope John 23, with no changes to the missal.  So this is THE papally-approved 62 missal.
    .
    The second, third, fourth, etc editions of this missal have the changes to the canon, and were only approved by a liturgical commission, as part of the on-going, ever-changing liturgy from 62-65.  These were not approved by John23 nor issued by him in the same way as the original, 1st edition.
    .
    Conclusion:  The original/1st edition of the 62 missal is orthodox and papal-approved.  Subsequent editions are not.  You have to make this distinction.  That's why +ABL and many other priests would scratch out St Joseph's name in the canon and keep the 2nd confiteor, etc.  Because these were not part of the 1st edition.
    .
    So when people say "The sspx uses the 62 missal, just like FSSP.  Or, I can't believe Fr Wathen said the 62 missal was ok."  Well...WHICH 1962 MISSAL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?  To treat all the editions the same is an error.  But most people don't dive into the details, so they make bad conclusions.

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #27 on: August 01, 2021, 10:17:52 PM »
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  • Here's the way I look at it:  There is a 1st addition of the 62 missal, approved by Pope John 23, with no changes to the missal.  So this is THE papally-approved 62 missal.
    .
    The second, third, fourth, etc editions of this missal have the changes to the canon, and were only approved by a liturgical commission, as part of the on-going, ever-changing liturgy from 62-65.  These were not approved by John23 nor issued by him in the same way as the original, 1st edition.
    .
    Conclusion:  The original/1st edition of the 62 missal is orthodox and papal-approved.  Subsequent editions are not.  You have to make this distinction.  That's why +ABL and many other priests would scratch out St Joseph's name in the canon and keep the 2nd confiteor, etc.  Because these were not part of the 1st edition.
    .
    So when people say "The sspx uses the 62 missal, just like FSSP.  Or, I can't believe Fr Wathen said the 62 missal was ok."  Well...WHICH 1962 MISSAL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?  To treat all the editions the same is an error.  But most people don't dive into the details, so they make bad conclusions.
    Interesting, do you know any SSPX priests who omit St. Joseph to this day?

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #28 on: August 02, 2021, 05:50:45 AM »
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  • Quote from PAX:

    Quote
    Here's the way I look at it:  There is a 1st addition of the 62 missal, approved by Pope John 23, with no changes to the missal.  So this is THE papally-approved 62 missal.

    So, there "is a 1st addition of the 62 missal, approved by Pope John 23, with no changes to the missal"? Then why to publish a "first edition" at all? Produce such evidence, or, where you told by an SSPX priest?
     
    Secondly, Is the SSPX's "1962" missal "papally aproved"? NO. What gives the SSPX the authority to publish a hybrid (1954/1962) missal with Feasts and prayers such as the Second Confiteor and the Good Friday Prayer that had already been abolished? If ABL didn't agree with the changes in 1962, why didn't he simply keep the 1954 Missal the "9 priests" and many of their priests where already using when they were expelled by the ABL in 1983? Was it because ABL had signed an agreement with Rome to always use the 1962 missal? So he published the one that was acceptable to him?
     
    An old priest, 92 yrs. old at the time, Fr. Casimir Peterson from Baltimore MD, showed me once the source about Leo XIII being asked to add the name of St. Joseph to the Canon and his reply was: "I am only the pope". But braking away with the ancient tradition of only adding martyrs to the Canon doesn't bother you or the SSPX? St. Thomas Becket died to defend ONE tradition alone.
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani's sleight of hand
    « Reply #29 on: August 02, 2021, 06:38:18 AM »
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  • Quote from PAX:

    So, there "is a 1st addition of the 62 missal, approved by Pope John 23, with no changes to the missal"? Then why to publish a "first edition" at all? Produce such evidence, or, where you told by an SSPX priest?
     
    Secondly, Is the SSPX's "1962" missal "papally approved"? NO. What gives the SSPX the authority to publish a hybrid (1954/1962) missal with Feasts and prayers such as the Second Confiteor and the Good Friday Prayer that had already been abolished? If ABL didn't agree with the changes in 1962, why didn't he simply keep the 1954 Missal the "9 priests" and many of their priests where already using when they were expelled by the ABL in 1983? Was it because ABL had signed an agreement with Rome to always use the 1962 missal? So he published the one that was acceptable to him?
     
    An old priest, 92 yrs. old at the time, Fr. Casimir Peterson from Baltimore MD, showed me once the source about Leo XIII being asked to add the name of St. Joseph to the Canon and his reply was: "I am only the pope". But braking away with the ancient tradition of only adding martyrs to the Canon doesn't bother you or the SSPX? St. Thomas Becket died to defend ONE tradition alone.
    Yes, all good questions.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)