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Offline klasG4e

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Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
« on: July 04, 2017, 04:52:54 PM »
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  • A rather stunning article (from trueorfalsepope.com) to say the least!  FR. KRAMER’S GONE MAD: He Claims God Killed Fr. Gruner For Recognizing Francis as Pope


    FR. KRAMER’S GONE MAD:
    He Claims God Killed Fr. Gruner For Recognizing Francis as Pope
     
     
           If you have followed our debate with Fr. Kramer, and thought Kramer could not discredit himself any more than he already has, think again. What we initially described as a complete unraveling of this once-respected priest was, sadly, an understatement. By anyone’s reasonable estimation, it appears that Fr. Kramer has gone completely mad, and is not operating with his full mental faculties. This might explain why he would choose to publicly criticize a book he hasn’t read, call the authors of the book heretics and Freemasons, prevent the authors from directly responding to his arguments by blocking us from his Facebook page, and stubbornly persevere in embarrassing contradictions and arguments that have already been refuted for all the world to see. On the other hand, perhaps someone drunk with his own pride, who has full use of his mental faculties, could also engage in such demoralizing behavior.
           However, in our view, only someone who is mentally deranged or under demonic influences (or both) would publicly state that God struck Fr. Nicholas Gruner dead because he recognized Francis as Pope. And, yet, this is precisely what Fr. Paul Kramer has posted on his Facebook page. Evidently, Fr. Kramer’s diabolical fixation on Pope Francis’ illegitimacy extends to public statements about why God takes certain people out of this world, here, those who disagree with Kramer on who is the true Pope. Could it get any more diabolical? Here are Kramer’s posts in response to a Mr. Robert Sullivan:

    Mr. Sullivan: Why would Fr. Gruner, only one week before his death, publicly call Francis, Pope Francis, if he was 100% sure he was an Anti-Pope?  Posted August 9, 2016 at 1.01am.

    Fr. Kramer: I don’t want to be too harsh in my judgment, but Fr. Gruner had one opinion, but dissimulated about the other -- … (Posted August 9, 2016 at 1.08am, emphasis added).

    Mr. Sullivan: ? (Posted August 9, 2016 at 1.08am).

    Fr. Kramer: Yes, Robert Sullivan you heard me. I don’t want to say more in judgment.
     
    Fr. Gruner singlehandedly informed the whole world about the request of the consecration of Russia. When that happens, the Church and the world will have a great debt of gratitude to Fr. Gruner. Nevertheless, he dissimulated about “Pope” Francis. He knew better, but still postured as though Francis were the pope. God intervened. I do not wish to take anything away from the accomplishments of Fr. Gruner regarding the work for the consecration of Russia – but in the divine scheme of things, he did not adjust to the changed situation in the Church . . . (Posted August 9, 2016 at 1.08am, emphases added).

    Mr. Sullivan: And just to be clear are you saying “God intervened” by taking Fr. Gruner out of this world, because, in your opinion “he dissimulated about ‘Pope’ Francis. …” (Posted August 9, 2016, 1:32am, emphasis added).

    Fr. Kramer:Quod scripsi, scripsi [What I have written, I have written]. I have no further comments to make about Fr. Gruner. …” (Posted, August 9, 2016)

    John Salza: Folks, there you have it. According to Fr. Paul Kramer, God killed Fr. Gruner as a punishment for publicly recognizing Francis as Pope. He was asked point blank if this is what he meant and he did not deny it (“Quod scripsi, scripsi”). So according to Fr. Kramer, God took the life of one of his most faithful priests, loved beyond words by Jesus Christ and Our Lady, because this priest submitted to the public judgment of Christ’s Church on who is Pope! Only a crazy person would make such a statement, and do so publicly.
           Let’s be clear about the implications of Fr. Kramer’s statement, even beyond the judgments we can draw about his psychological state of mind. Kramer claims that Fr. Gruner “dissimulated” (he says it two times) about Francis being Pope. That is, he claims that Fr. Gruner did not really believe Francis was Pope, but spoke and acted like he did believe he was Pope. In other words, by accusing him of “dissimulation,” Fr. Kramer accuses Fr. Gruner of being a public liar and a sinner.
          As St. Thomas explains, “is it contrary to truth to employ signs of deeds or things to signify the contrary of what is in oneself, and this is what is properly denoted by dissimulation. Consequently dissimulation is properly a lie told by the signs of outward deeds. Now it matters not whether one lie in word or in any other way, as stated above (110, 1, Objection 2). Wherefore, since every lie is a sin, as stated above (Question 110, Article 3), it follows that also all dissimulation is a sin.”[1] Again, by accusing him of “dissimulation,” Fr. Kramer has accused Fr. Gruner of being a public liar and a sinner, since Fr. Gruner allegedly “signified the contrary” of what was in himself, namely, he believed that Francis was not the true Pope, even though “by the signs of outward deeds” Fr. Gruner spoke and acted as if he believed Francis were the true Pope.
           And note well the additional implications of Fr. Kramer’s accusation against Fr. Gruner. Scripture condemns lying as it does other mortal sins which merit eternal damnation. As the Catholic Encyclopedia states, “In places almost innumerable Holy Scripture seems to condemn lying as absolutely and unreservedly as it condemns murder and fornication.” Indeed it does. In the Apocalypse, Christ Himself warns that liars will share the same eternal fate as idolaters and other wicked sinners when He says: “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Apoc. 21:8).[2] Thus, by accusing Fr. Gruner of being a public liar, Kramer is suggesting that Fr. Gruner, who persevered in his “lie” until death (a death Fr. Kramer claims God inflicted on him for his “sin”), may indeed be burning in hell.
           For those who have followed our debate with Fr. Kramer, you have learned that he is no theologian. However, he certainly knows that dissimulation is a lie and thus “always a sin,”[3] and that lying about grave matters is a mortal sin meriting eternal punishment. As even the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, “Lying is the most direct offense against the truth”[4] and “By its very nature, lying is to be condemned.”[5]
           Now, Fr. Gruner not only knew, but also preached to the faithful of the absolute necessity of recognizing the true Pope and submitting to his judgments in all things lawful. Fr. Gruner would often refer to the Church’s dogmatic definition “that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”[6] He did so because he himself was falsely accused by his enemies of not being in subjection to the Popes for pointing out their failures to consecrate Russia and reveal the Third Secret of Fatima, and he wanted the faithful to understand the difference between being “subject to the Roman Pontiff” while, at the same time, “resisting” his errors.
           Thus, Fr. Gruner no doubt considered the public acknowledgment and submission to the true Pope a most grave matter of salvation. Indeed, this is precisely why Fr. Gruner taught the faithful that they must be both in submission to the Popes while also resisting their errors and omissions regarding the Message of Fatima – so they could save their souls. Consequently, it is certain that Fr. Gruner rejected Sedevacantism and the opinion that one can declare, by his own private judgment, that the elected Pope is an antipope, contrary to the public judgment of the Church. This also means that Fr. Gruner rejected the erroneous theology of Fr. Kramer.
           Thus, if Fr. Gruner truly believed in his conscience that Francis was not the Pope and interiorly resisted submission to him (as Kramer accuses him), while teaching other people that Francis was in fact the true Pope and to submit to him (which Fr. Gruner did teach), then Fr. Gruner would have been guilty of “intentionally deceiving”[7] the faithful on a matter of salvation, and thus guilty of mortal sin. This would be the case even though Fr. Gruner’s external actions were in conformity to the truth, since the Catechism teaches that “A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.”[8] And if Fr. Gruner persevered in this mortal sin until death, it follows that he would now be suffering eternal punishments in hell.[9] Surely, Fr. Kramer, theologian or not, knows that such a conclusion can be easily drawn from his grave and public accusations against Fr. Gruner, which makes them all the more reprehensible and revolting. And Kramer actually had the nerve to say “I don’t want to be too harsh in my judgment.”
           Fr. Gruner suffered more injustice, lies, and calumny during his priestly life then most men would be able to endure. And, now, even after his shocking and untimely death, he is still having his reputation publicly attacked by the likes of Fr. Paul Leonard Kramer, who claims that God struck him dead for being a public liar.
           Fr. Paul Kramer should be shunned and denounced by all Catholic faithful, at least until he publicly retracts and repents of his malicious and reckless accusations against one of the greatest and most influential Churchmen of the past century, the Fatima priest, Fr. Nicholas Gruner. May God have mercy on Fr. Kramer.
     



    [1] ST, II-II, q 111, a. 1.
    [2] See also 1Tim. 10 and Titus 1:12.
    [3] ST, II-II, q 111, a. 1.
    [4] CCC 2483.
    [5] CCC 2485.
    [6] Pope Boniface’s Unam Sanctam (November 18, 1302).
    [7] The Catechism says: “A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving. The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil…” (CCC 2482).
    [8] CCC 1790.
    [9] St. Thomas teaches that when dissimulation is in the form of hypocrisy, it is a “mortal sin” when “it is contrary to the love of God or of his neighbor.” ST, II-II, q. 111, a. 4. St. Thomas explains that this would happen if the man simulated to “obtain ecclesiastical preferment” or “any temporal good in which he fixes his end.” Ibid. 

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #1 on: July 04, 2017, 05:15:51 PM »
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  • Could it have been the fluoride content in the wine he was drinking?   :facepalm:



    Many U.S. wines contain fluoride levels that are too high to allow them to be exported to Europe and other countries that have lower fluoride limits than the United States. These wines often contain as much as six parts per million of fluoride, as compared to the Environmental Protection Agency’s maximum contaminant level for fluoride of four parts per million. 
    Because fluoride is continuously used on crops and does not biodegrade, it builds up in the soil and is absorbed into plants’ roots, stems, leaves and the fruit. This has most notably been observed in grapes, which have long been grown using cryolite under the trade name Kryocide. It is used to fight against leaf-eating pests. Despite cryolites’ use over the past 50 years, insects have not built up a resistance to it, so it is a fundamental pesticide for many growers.
     The chemical company that produces Kryocide, Elf Atochem North America, Inc., released an advisory to U.S. grape growers telling them not to use too much cryolite when growing grapes that were intended for export since they would not meet foreign safety standards. But the company also told these growers to keep using high amounts of cryolite on the grapes grown for domestic use since the U.S. standards for fluoride content are less strict.
     A 5-year study conducted on California vineyards in the San Joaquin Valley by researchers at California State University in Fresno found that “multiple applications of cryolite during the growing season significantly increase fluoride in wines.” In grapes grown using cryolite, they found fluoride levels to be between 3 to 6 parts per million and 6 to 9 parts per million, depending on the type of wine. Wines made with grapes grown without the use of cryolite have fluoride ranges from 0.1 to 1.6 parts per million. One glass of wine that has 6 parts per million of fluoride contains more fluoride than one liter of optimally fluoridated water.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #2 on: July 04, 2017, 06:05:01 PM »
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  • Disgusting. 

    This is the kind of shit that makes me abhor sedevacantism. Many of them(if not most of them) have the nerve to make such slanderous statements about their neighbors, without any proof of the legitimacy of their claims nor of their neighbor's intentions. It seems that Fr. Kramer's unhealthy obsession with the allegedly invalid election of Pope Francis has caused him to adopt the same kind of uncharitable judgement, which clearly is a by-product of pride. And for a priest to make this kind of statement publicly about another priest makes it all the more disgusting.

     I wonder why God didn't strike St. Vincent Ferrer dead for publicly accepting an anti-pope during the great western schism? :confused:I
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #3 on: July 05, 2017, 07:47:21 AM »
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  • Read it again, Fr. Kramer suggest God took Fr. Gruner out of this world but nowhere does he say he is in Hell, but it is John Salaza that suggest that Fr. Kramer is implying he is in Hell. Fr. Kramer did a interview on TradCat Knight (after this was written by Salaza) and Fr. Kramer states that he (Fr. Kramer) believes Fr. Gruner is in heaven. And those at the Fatima Center know Fr. Kramer still thinks highly of his dear friend Fr. Gruner, and thus has no problem having him speak at the Fatima conference : http://ourladysarmyofadvocates.com/conference-schedule/

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #4 on: July 05, 2017, 09:14:16 AM »
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  • Well not knowing the absolute intent of his statement, doesn't God take "everyone" out? People can speculate on the reason but it's pure conjecture...God is the author of life and DEATH- nobody dies outside of the Providence of God. It's not like He intervenes just for special occaisions... I personally don't like either Fr Kramer ( did he ever get re-ordained in Tradition or is he still a NO priest fighting against the NO?) and i never trusted Mr Salza, whom the Masonics apparently gave "free reign" to expose them ...hmmmm


    Offline brianhope

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #5 on: July 05, 2017, 10:20:34 AM »
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  • It is true that Fr. Gruner did not believe that Bergoglio was pope. A good friend of mine, who was a close friend of John Vennari's, was told by him (as well as by Fr. K) at Fr. G's funeral that the latter did not believe Bergoglio was pope.
    Would Mr. Salza conclude that Father Gruner is in Hell if he indeed believed Bergoglio to be an antipope?

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #6 on: July 05, 2017, 10:24:27 AM »
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  • Apparently, if this video is good evidence, Fr. Kramer is still in "good standing" with Fr. Chazal and is continuing to fight the good fight along with him.


    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #7 on: July 05, 2017, 10:53:09 AM »
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  • One thing to always consider when reading the debate between Fr. Kramer and Salza/Siscoe is to remember that Siscoe does not distinguish between the Conciliar Church and the Catholic Church whereas, Fr. Kramer believes the Catholic Church is separate from the Conciliar Church, and both base their entire arguments on these different starting principals which leads to complete misunderstanding.

    As for the re-ordination, I do not know what has been done currently, but back many years ago, Fr. Hesse (classmates of Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner), said that Bishops Williamson, Fellay and Tissier all thought that re-ordination was not necessary.


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #8 on: July 05, 2017, 11:56:50 AM »
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  • I am not doubting Fr Hesse- back then there may have not been a need as most of the Bishop's ordaining priests had the valid right to ordain from the old rite of Episcopal Consecration. Those valid Bishops are now very few and far between in the NO as the new rite of Consecration does not give the Bishop the right to ordain.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #9 on: July 05, 2017, 12:26:55 PM »
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  • One thing to always consider when reading the debate between Fr. Kramer and Salza/Siscoe is to remember that Siscoe does not distinguish between the Conciliar Church and the Catholic Church whereas, Fr. Kramer believes the Catholic Church is separate from the Conciliar Church, and both base their entire arguments on these different starting principals which leads to complete misunderstanding.

    As for the re-ordination, I do not know what has been done currently, but back many years ago, Fr. Hesse (classmates of Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner), said that Bishops Williamson, Fellay and Tissier all thought that re-ordination was not necessary.

    Siscoe & Salza are highly compromised SSPX propagandists without academic scholarship or credibility.


         The blundering SSPX "ghost writers" 
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #10 on: July 05, 2017, 04:58:30 PM »
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  • If supporting an antipope were an absolute mortal sin, then I suppose we ought to strip St. Vincent Ferrer of his sainthood and make an official condemnation! At least in his day there was another claimant who had more than his family members electing him. Let's place the blame squarely where it truly and justly resides: the VII Popes. If it wasn't for their disastrous behavior, there wouldn't be any doubt to begin with.

    Fr. Kramer's ridiculous claims of divine punishment on Fr. Gruner is entirely consistent with his status as "spiritual director" to the notorious spaz headcase Eric Gajewski, who in turn is a promoter of Boston. If I were to speculate as to why Chazal is still so friendly, it may be somewhat strategic as Kramer is one of very few priests in Ireland connected to the Resistance. I like Chazal, but I think at some point he may need to rethink that connection. If the Moran situation taught me anything it was how much it really takes for one Resistance priest to openly criticize another, or to warn the rest of the faithful. This is not a formal organization and swift discipline is not going to happen for rogue elements.   
    Fortuna finem habet.


    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #11 on: July 05, 2017, 06:02:48 PM »
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  • Apparently, if this video is good evidence, Fr. Kramer is still in "good standing" with Fr. Chazal and is continuing to fight the good fight along with him.




    Why is Fr. Kramer wearing sunglasses?
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #12 on: July 05, 2017, 06:03:20 PM »
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  • edited - see above
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline reconquest

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #13 on: July 06, 2017, 11:18:53 AM »
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  • Gotta love how the Novus Ordo apologists Siscoe and Salza cite the Novus Ordo "Catechism of the Catholic Church" continuously throughout their article.
    "There's a mix of passion and shortsightedness in me, even when I'm positive that I'm doing my very best to see things for what they are, that warns me that I'll never know for sure. Undoubtedly I must follow the truth I can see, I have no choice and I must live on; but that is for me only, not to impose on others." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Fr. Kramer and Fr. Gruner
    « Reply #14 on: July 06, 2017, 11:52:57 AM »
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  • Siscoe and Salza are complete clowns.  Even the SSPX is distancing themselves from them, because their theology is complete hogwash.  Instead, they've commissioned Fr. Gleize to attempt a scholarly serial retort to sedevacantism about as soon as the S&S tome hit a trad bookshelf near you.  I don't know about Fr. Kramer's contentions re: Fr. Gruner, but just to be clear, what Kramer is saying is that God ended Fr. Gruner because Fr. Gruner knew better.  This isn't a question of whether or not someone can innocently follow an anti-pope, there's virtually no one who denies that, and Kramer is not arguing that Gruner was hit by a lightning bolt because he "recognized" Francis, but because he recognized him against what he "really" knew to be the case.  And there's no doubt that, whatever the case, if we deny what we know to be true, it is a grievous offense against God.  God expects us to act in ways proportionate and referential to our abilities.  For some, that will never mean much because they are inexorably simple and cannot handle the anxieties of learning about certain issues.  For others, the expectation is higher.  I don't know if Fr. Gruner should have known better or not, and I don't think that Kramer can really say, though if anyone could say, Kramer would be in the best position to.
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