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Author Topic: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor  (Read 7693 times)

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Offline josefamenendez

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Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2020, 11:11:13 AM »
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  • Are you tipping your hand?

    The priest should simply resume saying public Masses, without regard to the illegitimate intrusion of the temporal authority into the spiritual sphere.

    One does not ask permission to do one’s duty.

    Complying with these tyrannical police state measures only guarantees and emboldens their tyrannical police state, and further enslaves us.

    What is needed to remedy the situation is widespread civil disobedience.
    I agree with your statement, but making an analogy with our Lord's actions on the day of His Passion, He did at least "respect" the position of civil authorities by speaking to and informing Pilate- about where  True Authority emanates, a respect that was NOT given to the  Sanhedrin vipers and especially to Herod, who fraudulently usurped being "king".My take on it is that it is acceptable to fight lawfully within the government but not hold them as an ultimate authority in matters of Faith, hence yes- civil disobedience after legal recourse.  Using our Lord as an example, there is no need to acknowledge the  counterfeit Consiliar Church or their illigitimate mandates as they are not rightfully in authority, first by their doubtful VII consecrations/ ordinations, and second by their obvious anti-christ , anti-catholic posturings. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #46 on: May 03, 2020, 11:31:09 AM »
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  • Here’s a practical consequence of the policy of appeasement, rather than the Church and the SSPX asserting tgeir rights:

    Today at the 10:30am Mass, held outside in a parking lot, under a makeshift gazebo, it was very windy.

    Windy enough to blow over two signposts directing traffic in the lot.

    You could hear it roaring into the microphone on the altar for the radio station playing the Mass.

    I could see things blowing around inside the gazebo during Mass, and about the time I wondered whether particles of the sacred host would be exposed to the winds and blow off the paten into the lot, the whole roof of the gazebo collapsed onto the priest during the offertory.

    Someone had to leave their car to raise the roof again.

    Then during the prayers after Mass the roof collapsed onto the priest again, with he himself repositioning the roof this time.

    What would have happened if that roof had collapsed during one of the elevations??

    Minimally there was serious risk of polluting or spilling the Blessed Sacrament, which would have been absent had the Mass been said inside the church.

    Ps: There was no fault on the priest; bright sunny day, he could not have anticipated the danger (but therefore could not prevent it), and once the Mass is started, it must be completed.  It may have been calmer out at the 8am Mass.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #47 on: May 03, 2020, 12:50:34 PM »
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  • Here’s a practical consequence of the policy of appeasement, rather than the Church and the SSPX asserting tgeir rights:

    Today at the 10:30am Mass, held outside in a parking lot, under a makeshift gazebo, it was very windy.

    Windy enough to blow over two signposts directing traffic in the lot.

    You could hear it roaring into the microphone on the altar for the radio station playing the Mass.

    I could see things blowing around inside the gazebo during Mass, and about the time I wondered whether particles of the sacred host would be exposed to the winds and blow off the paten into the lot, the whole roof of the gazebo collapsed onto the priest during the offertory.

    Someone had to leave their car to raise the roof again.

    Then during the prayers after Mass the roof collapsed onto the priest again, with he himself repositioning the roof this time.

    What would have happened if that roof had collapsed during one of the elevations??

    Minimally there was serious risk of polluting or spilling the Blessed Sacrament, which would have been absent had the Mass been said inside the church.

    Ps: There was no fault on the priest; bright sunny day, he could not have anticipated the danger (but therefore could not prevent it), and once the Mass is started, it must be completed.  It may have been calmer out at the 8am Mass.
    Sometimes unforseen circuмstances arise.  Had it been so windy at set up, the canopy may have been nearly impossible to set up.  Just be thankful there was no collapse at the consecration or elevation.  Surely precautions were taken so Hosts didn't blow away.  The priest can shield them with his body while distributing Communion.
    My family once heard Mass in the outdoor amphitheater of a national park while we were on a camping trip cross country.  Nobody told the priest that the open-sided she'd under which he was to say Mass was already occupied by dozens of nesting barn swallows.  The minute Fr. ascended the makeshift steps to the makeshift altar, the birds made their displeasure known by continually swooping down over his head and past his face. A man had an idea a day the Mass was halted while several men, my father included hurried back from vehicles and campsites with brooms, shovels, a bough of a pine tree.  Fr. proceeded to say Mass while the men used their "weapons" to keep the swallows at bay, away from Fr., the altar, and especially, the Sacred Species.  The poor priest probably set a world's record for the fastest elevation of the Host in history.
    The following Sunday, Mass was held indoors in the basement of a supermarket some distance away.  I recall the priest thanking the men and wryly commenting that he thought he'd seen his last of Kamikaze bombers when his ship was attacked in the Pacific.
    This was in 1967, and he still said Masz in Latin.  He'd been a chaplain in the Navy in WWII.  

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #48 on: May 03, 2020, 01:55:52 PM »
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  • Anyone "church", that comes under a "dioceses" gives their salute to the government.  They serve the government(state and federal).

    Point is: the dioceses answer to the government/state.  If the government/state says to close doors to the sacraments, then they must comply.

    IF you are of a traditional, that has no salutes to the government/state, they may have their Masses/sacraments in their churches.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #49 on: May 03, 2020, 09:38:41 PM »
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  • Assuming you are not a Sedevacantist/Sedeprivationist, the "NWO conciliarists" as you have dubbed them are the Church's authority who must be obeyed, not you and I nor His Excellency Bishop Williamson nor the Neo- SSPX as you call it nor anyone else.

    This is something that the Church has authority to do (temporarily halt Mass). Disobeying authority is a grave matter.


    I follow the SSPX because though they are averse to certain novelties that the Church's authority has put in place because of V2 and its ambiguous nature in certain matters,  they still recognize this authority and obey it as a Catholic ought to do in clear cut matters.
    I am amazed by such a statement CM.
    For one who admits to being "under conversion" by the SSPX, you speak with great authority.
    It is the view of those who have no faith. We know by faith that all sickness and death come into the world because of sin, and we know that the true remedy for that sickness is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, conversion of life, return to and reception of the sacraments in order to appease the wrath of God.
    The just man lives by faith, says Holy Writ, not by merely natural prudence.
    Even if one were to admit that an extraordinary threat to our life actually exists, when we look at the traditional practice of the Church in times of plague, it has never been to "halt the Mass", but rather to urge the faithful to amendment of life, penance, the reception of the sacraments, to organize public processions to appease the anger of God and beg His mercy upon us.

    Here is the view of a churchman, and from a source, that may be more acceptable to someone from your background:

    Ban on public Masses and the suspension of Holy Communion - go against the law of God

    April 15, 2020
    |
    Alexandra Clark | The Daily Knight




      Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò (LifeSite News) 
     
    In an Interview with the Remnant Newspaper, Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò declared:
     
    “The ban on public Masses and the suspension of Holy Communion - go against the law of God, and are proof that behind it all is Satan. Only the Evil Serpent can explain these measures which will bring about the spiritual loss of so many souls. It would be like ordering doctors not to treat patients in danger of death.”
     
    Here are some other statements he said during the interview concerning the ban on the Sacraments and his woe to the Shepherds of the Flock:
     
    How do you judge the suspension of the Sacraments which we have seen in almost all the world?
     
    This is a terrible suffering, perhaps even the worst the faithful have ever seen. It is unbelievable to think such a thing has been denied to the dying.
     
    At this juncture, it seems most that the Hierarchy, with very few exceptions, had no scruple in closing the churches and in preventing the participation of the faithful in the holy Sacrifice of the Mass. They have behaved like cold bureaucrats, like executors of the will of the Prince, and most of the faithful have taken their actions as a sign of their lack of Faith. Who can blame them?
     
    I almost wonder - and it is a terrible thing to think - whether the closure of churches and the suspension of all Celebrations might not be another punishment by God, in addition to the pandemic. That they might know that by what things a man sinneth, by the same also he is tormented. (Wisdom 11, 17) Offended though He is by the slovenliness and lack of respect shown by his priests, outraged by the profanation of the Blessed Sacrament which occurs every day when they give Communion in the hand, and tired of silly songs or heretical homilies, He is still - from His place of silence within the Tabernacle - satisfied by the austere composed praise offered by the many Priests who are still saying the Mass of all time. The Mass which goes back to the time of the Apostles. And which has always been the beating heart of the Church down through the centuries. Let us remember this most solemn warning: God is not mocked.
     
    Clearly I understand and share the basic worries about safety and protection which the authorities require for public health. However, just as they have the right to pass measures for things affecting our bodies, so the Church authorities have the right and the duty to worry about the health of our souls. They cannot deny the faithful the spiritual sustenance they receive from the Eucharist, not to mention the Sacrament of Confession, Mass, and Viaticuм. 
     
    When so many shops and restaurants were still open, the various Bishops’ Conferences had already suspended all sacred functions, even when the civil authorities had not asked them to do so. This is further proof that the Hierarchy is in a dreadful state and shows that Bishops are all too willing to sacrifice the well-being of souls to pacify the power of the state or the dictatorship of ideas.
     
    What message would Your Excellency like to give those in charge of defending and guiding Christ’s flock?
     
    The Pope, the Hierarchy, and all Bishops, Priests and Religious must immediately and absolutely convert. This is something the laity are calling for, as they suffer because they have no firm and faithful guides. We cannot allow the flock which Our Divine Lord has entrusted to our care be scattered by faithless mercenaries. We must convert and go completely over to being on God’s side. We cannot reach any compromises whatsoever with the world.
     
    See Full Interview with His Excellency Here: https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/4827-a-remnant-interview-archbishop-vigano-on-covid-19-and-the-hand-of-god


    Offline CatholicMonarchist

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #50 on: May 03, 2020, 09:56:09 PM »
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  • I am amazed by such a statement CM.
    For one who admits to being "under conversion" by the SSPX, you speak with great authority.
    It is the view of those who have no faith. We know by faith that all sickness and death come into the world because of sin, and we know that the true remedy for that sickness is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, conversion of life, return to and reception of the sacraments in order to appease the wrath of God.
    The just man lives by faith, says Holy Writ, not by merely natural prudence.
    Even if one were to admit that an extraordinary threat to our life actually exists, when we look at the traditional practice of the Church in times of plague, it has never been to "halt the Mass", but rather to urge the faithful to amendment of life, penance, the reception of the sacraments, to organize public processions to appease the anger of God and beg His mercy upon us.

    Here is the view of a churchman, and from a source, that may be more acceptable to someone from your background:

    Ban on public Masses and the suspension of Holy Communion - go against the law of God

    April 15, 2020
    |
    Alexandra Clark | The Daily Knight




     Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò (LifeSite News)

    In an Interview with the Remnant Newspaper, Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò declared:
     
    “The ban on public Masses and the suspension of Holy Communion - go against the law of God, and are proof that behind it all is Satan. Only the Evil Serpent can explain these measures which will bring about the spiritual loss of so many souls. It would be like ordering doctors not to treat patients in danger of death.”
     
    Here are some other statements he said during the interview concerning the ban on the Sacraments and his woe to the Shepherds of the Flock:
     
    How do you judge the suspension of the Sacraments which we have seen in almost all the world?
     
    This is a terrible suffering, perhaps even the worst the faithful have ever seen. It is unbelievable to think such a thing has been denied to the dying.
     
    At this juncture, it seems most that the Hierarchy, with very few exceptions, had no scruple in closing the churches and in preventing the participation of the faithful in the holy Sacrifice of the Mass. They have behaved like cold bureaucrats, like executors of the will of the Prince, and most of the faithful have taken their actions as a sign of their lack of Faith. Who can blame them?
     
    I almost wonder - and it is a terrible thing to think - whether the closure of churches and the suspension of all Celebrations might not be another punishment by God, in addition to the pandemic. That they might know that by what things a man sinneth, by the same also he is tormented. (Wisdom 11, 17) Offended though He is by the slovenliness and lack of respect shown by his priests, outraged by the profanation of the Blessed Sacrament which occurs every day when they give Communion in the hand, and tired of silly songs or heretical homilies, He is still - from His place of silence within the Tabernacle - satisfied by the austere composed praise offered by the many Priests who are still saying the Mass of all time. The Mass which goes back to the time of the Apostles. And which has always been the beating heart of the Church down through the centuries. Let us remember this most solemn warning: God is not mocked.
     
    Clearly I understand and share the basic worries about safety and protection which the authorities require for public health. However, just as they have the right to pass measures for things affecting our bodies, so the Church authorities have the right and the duty to worry about the health of our souls. They cannot deny the faithful the spiritual sustenance they receive from the Eucharist, not to mention the Sacrament of Confession, Mass, and Viaticuм.
     
    When so many shops and restaurants were still open, the various Bishops’ Conferences had already suspended all sacred functions, even when the civil authorities had not asked them to do so. This is further proof that the Hierarchy is in a dreadful state and shows that Bishops are all too willing to sacrifice the well-being of souls to pacify the power of the state or the dictatorship of ideas.
     
    What message would Your Excellency like to give those in charge of defending and guiding Christ’s flock?
     
    The Pope, the Hierarchy, and all Bishops, Priests and Religious must immediately and absolutely convert. This is something the laity are calling for, as they suffer because they have no firm and faithful guides. We cannot allow the flock which Our Divine Lord has entrusted to our care be scattered by faithless mercenaries. We must convert and go completely over to being on God’s side. We cannot reach any compromises whatsoever with the world.
     
    See Full Interview with His Excellency Here: https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/4827-a-remnant-interview-archbishop-vigano-on-covid-19-and-the-hand-of-god
    Though I do not know what you mean to imply by your statement, I will address it as such: Coming from a non-Catholic background and being in the process of conversion does not mean that one cannot speak on matters of faith if that comes from the very sources of the Church.


    As for your comment on authority then please be aware that I have no more authority than you and you have no more authority than I to speak on matters such as this. It is the Church that decides, not random people on an internet forum.


    Lastly, Catholics are not fatalists. There are naturalistic reasons for disease that obey the laws that God has set in place. Avoiding occasions that may spread the disease is not problematic when it is the Church with her authority that teaches that we are to do so for a greater good.
    Wonder is the desire for knowledge

    St. Thomas Aquinas

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #51 on: May 03, 2020, 10:46:07 PM »
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  • Though I do not know what you mean to imply by your statement, I will address it as such: Coming from a non-Catholic background and being in the process of conversion does not mean that one cannot speak on matters of faith if that comes from the very sources of the Church.


    As for your comment on authority then please be aware that I have no more authority than you and you have no more authority than I to speak on matters such as this. It is the Church that decides, not random people on an internet forum.


    Lastly, Catholics are not fatalists. There are naturalistic reasons for disease that obey the laws that God has set in place. Avoiding occasions that may spread the disease is not problematic when it is the Church with her authority that teaches that we are to do so for a greater good.
    One who is a non-Catholic, "in the process of conversion", has as much authority as anyone else to teach Catholics, in this time of extraordinary crisis, what the Church teaches.
    Did I read that correctly???
    And the CatholicMonarchist (NonCatholicMonarchist seems more appropriate) evidently believes that he taught us "from the very sources of the Church" that the Church has the authority to "temporarily halt Mass", and disobeying such a command is "grave matter".
    What extraordinary pride.
    You are right on the money, Sean - TROLL HIGH ALERT.

    Offline CatholicMonarchist

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #52 on: May 04, 2020, 07:16:40 AM »
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  • One who is a non-Catholic, "in the process of conversion", has as much authority as anyone else to teach Catholics, in this time of extraordinary crisis, what the Church teaches.
    Did I read that correctly???
    And the CatholicMonarchist (NonCatholicMonarchist seems more appropriate) evidently believes that he taught us "from the very sources of the Church" that the Church has the authority to "temporarily halt Mass", and disobeying such a command is "grave matter".
    What extraordinary pride.
    You are right on the money, Sean - TROLL HIGH ALERT.
    Apparently your reading comprehension is commensurate with your intelligence; that is to say it is lacking.


    I did not say I had authority to teach or speak on these matters. I said that being a Catechumen does not prevent one from speaking on matters relating to the Church provided that one uses the sources of the Church to a point.


    I did not teach anything; I said the Church teaches that disobeying a matter in which the Church has given guidance is not appropriate to a Catholic.


    Apparently anyone who you disagree with is a troll. Of course I don't expect much from a person with your level of intelligence to understand the problem with such a statement so we'll leave it at that.
    Wonder is the desire for knowledge

    St. Thomas Aquinas


    Offline CatholicMonarchist

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #53 on: May 04, 2020, 07:17:03 AM »
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  • Apparently your reading comprehension is commensurate with your intelligence; that is to say it is lacking.

    I did not say I had authority to teach or speak on these matters. I said that being a Catechumen does not prevent one from speaking on matters relating to the Church provided that one uses the sources of the Church to a point.

    I did not teach anything; I said the Church teaches that disobeying a matter in which the Church has given guidance is not appropriate to a Catholic.

    Apparently anyone who you disagree with is a troll. Of course I don't expect much from a person with your level of intelligence to understand the problem with such a statement so we'll leave it at that.
    Wonder is the desire for knowledge

    St. Thomas Aquinas

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #54 on: May 04, 2020, 07:47:58 AM »
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  • Struthio is a Sedevacantist, if I understand him correctly. This makes him at least consistent with his position.

    On the other hand, those who believe Francis is Pope yet pretty much reject everything he says have made themselves Pope and just do whatever they please. Of course they maintain so called "fidelity" to tradition, but so claims the Novus Ordite, the SSPXer, the Resister, and the Sedevacantist. But who among these is at least consistent with his or her position is the real question.

    The Church has told us to stop Mass for the time being and it has authority to do so for those who believe that Francis is Pope.

    CM, "The Church" did not tell us to stop the Mass, the pope did - just as other popes did when they told the same thing to Archbishop Lefebvre.
    It is good that the pope used his authority to stop the sacrilegious conciliar service of V2, he should have done that years ago.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Iacobi I

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #55 on: May 04, 2020, 08:47:53 AM »
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  • My apologies if I understood incorrectly. I thought it was Fr. Robinson being quoted.
    But my argument still stands via my post above (not about SSPX criticism, but about using terms such as "essential" in a legal battle).
    I agree with your stance on this, I think the entire resistance looks weak when it doesn't applaud the good of the SSPX while continuing to hold its differing opinions in the other matters (deal with Rome).


    Offline CatholicMonarchist

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #56 on: May 04, 2020, 09:05:42 AM »
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  • CM, "The Church" did not tell us to stop the Mass, the pope did - just as other popes did when they told the same thing to Archbishop Lefebvre.
    It is good that the pope used his authority to stop the sacrilegious conciliar service of V2, he should have done that years ago.
    The Pope and all of the Bishops in full communion with the Pope and by extension all of the Priests under the authority of said Bishops told us to stop attending Mass for the time being. If the aforementioned entities do not constitute the authority of "The Church" then I don't know what does.

    As for Msgr. Lefebvre and the issues relating to his excommunication then please be aware that this is a different issue altogether which I do not wish to delve into as it is unrelated to the above consideration.
    Wonder is the desire for knowledge

    St. Thomas Aquinas

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #57 on: May 04, 2020, 09:27:48 AM »
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  • The Pope and all of the Bishops in full communion with the Pope and by extension all of the Priests under the authority of said Bishops told us to stop attending Mass for the time being. If the aforementioned entities do not constitute the authority of "The Church" then I don't know what does.

    You do have a point here that's been lost.  Whether or not the secular authority has any right to restrict Mass attendance, the hierarchy most certainly does.  One can argue argue about whether they should have done so, but one cannot, short of being a sedevacantist who considers them illegitimate, dispute that they have this right.

    Now, I'm not sure if the Pope himself forbade Mass attendance around the world, but I'm sure that he backs the decisions of the local episcopate.  So, since the U.S. bishops have shut down Masses, those who do not consider these illegitimate are in fact bound by their decree.

    Now, I know I've disagreed with Sean about this before based on his thinking regarding just law principles.  Archbishop Vigano agrees in this case.  But his argument is about receiving the Sacraments, and people can still receive the Sacraments if they request them on an individual basis (apart from the cases of Novus Ordo presiders who are too scared to administer them).  In fact, some of the Eastern Rite bishops in the U.S. have been encouraging people to make individual appointments to receive the Sacraments.  I would imagine that the logistics of the Novus Ordo would make this impossible (there are many more of them than Eastern Rite Catholics).  Yet I bet that most NO "Catholics" are thrilled that the don't have to go to Mass on Sunday and won't go out of their way for the Sacraments.

    In many states, such as here in Ohio, the directive is merely that there not be groups of more than 10.  So what if the SSPX (and others) assigned 15-minute timeslots for groups of 10 at a time (spread out by at least 6 feet along the Communion rail) to receive Holy Communion.  In an 8 hour day, 320 people could receive Holy Communion, and most Traditional chapels don't have anywhere near that many people.  Then also make some arrangements for people who wish to go to Confession beforehand.  I'm not seeing the SSPX make that extra effort to find creative ways to get the Sacraments to people.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #58 on: May 04, 2020, 09:41:35 AM »
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  • Now, I'm not sure if the Pope himself forbade Mass attendance around the world, but I'm sure that he backs the decisions of the local episcopate.  So, since the U.S. bishops have shut down Masses, those who do not consider these illegitimate are in fact bound by their decree.


    To be bound by their decree, would that assume that the command was reasonable or not sinful?
    What if the command was against reason or shown to be harmful to the Faith?

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Fr. Kevin Robinson (SSPX) sues New Jersey governor
    « Reply #59 on: May 04, 2020, 09:43:46 AM »
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  • In many states, such as here in Ohio, the directive is merely that there not be groups of more than 10.  So what if the SSPX (and others) assigned 15-minute timeslots for groups of 10 at a time (spread out by at least 6 feet along the Communion rail) to receive Holy Communion.  In an 8 hour day, 320 people could receive Holy Communion, and most Traditional chapels don't have anywhere near that many people.  Then also make some arrangements for people who wish to go to Confession beforehand.  I'm not seeing the SSPX make that extra effort to find creative ways to get the Sacraments to people.

    https://smac.edu/sites/sspx/files/media/usa-p-stmarys/pub-priory/bulletin_04_26_2020.pdf