Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?  (Read 25790 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline St Peter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 169
  • Reputation: +82/-80
  • Gender: Male
Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2020, 07:49:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • St. Peter, what or who is a transient cleric? I have not come across this order. Are these independent priests?
    Leon, please  read replies when you ask questions.

    Can. 265 Every cleric must be incardinated either in a particular church or personal prelature, or in an institute of consecrated life or society endowed with this faculty, in such a way that unattached or transient clerics are not allowed at all.

    The following priests are transient clerics (sometimes referred to as "rogue" priests), that I know of, who are spoken of on CI:
    Fr. Pfeiffer, Fr. Hewko, Fr. Poisson, Fr. Raphael, Fr. Vargas, Fr. Ruiz, Fr. Roberts, Fr. Cordaro.

    I have neither the time nor the energy to assist you any longer.  Good luck to you.

    Offline St Peter

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 169
    • Reputation: +82/-80
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #91 on: February 11, 2020, 07:55:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Peter

    St. Peter and Meg, you bring up two different views, i.e. the applicability and non-applicability of canon law in a crisis situation. Do you know the views of the Priest/Bishops with regards to applicability/non-applicability of canon law among different Traditional groups (SSPX, Resistance, Sedevacantism)? Are only some canon laws applied while others are not applied? For example, CMRI and SSPX both appeal to supplied jurisdiction, but both diverge on their views about the Popes after Vatican II.
    In a crisis of the Church, canon law is not thrown out the window!  This is the asinine teaching of Fr. Pfeiffer.

    The Church has been in crisis many times in her history.


    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1566
    • Reputation: +1282/-100
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #92 on: February 11, 2020, 09:53:04 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you Plenus Venter. Your comment does help, but also causes much pain as I read it.
    Our Lord says in Sacred Scripture “Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand” (Matt xii: 25). If the Resistance continues to divide and split, then in a short span of time, there will be no unity. And a similar situation will arise with those who currently attend SSPX and other traditional chapels. But it seems unlikely that Rome will lose unity, even though they have gone down the slippery slope of modernism. Isn’t unity one of the four marks of Our Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. How should one explain this conundrum?
    Leonn, unity must be in the truth, the Faith, otherwise we might as well go with the One World Religion in the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr (which is pretty much the same as saying follow Pope Francis!). What would we be 'united' in? The truth necessarily divides, those who reject it and 'split off' bring discredit to themselves, not the truth which they leave. It is there for all to find.

    In answer to your questions about Canon Law: All Catholics must follow Canon Law, just as they must follow civil law, provided they can do it without breaking God's Law! St Thomas explains that law is an ordinance of reason for the common good, promulgated by the one who has care of the community. He explains that the legislator cannot possibly have in mind every situation when he makes the laws, and so if following the letter of a law would be harmful to the common good it ought not to be followed. He even says that in case of necessity, there is no law - we do what we have to in order to stay alive, provided we do not break God's Law. Hence, we have the supreme law of the Church - the salvation of souls. If observing the letter of any man-made law would result in harm to souls, we ought not to follow it.

    You seem very new to Tradition. Do yourself a favour and read Archbishop Lefebvre's Open Letter to Confused Catholics.
    Attached is a conference given by the Archbishop on the four marks of the Church you refer to, which was posted by Sam Loeman on his now defunct site 'Tradidi':

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32904
    • Reputation: +29182/-596
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #93 on: February 11, 2020, 10:04:11 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Peter, what or who is a transient cleric? I have not come across this order. Are these independent priests?

    He (or she) is making up a term -- no one else uses it.

    There is already an official and widely-used term for what "St. Peter" is talking about: a vagus priest. It is a priest without a superior. No bishop, no religious order. A priest who wanders the earth, answering to no one but himself, offering Mass wherever the spirit takes him, or wherever he feels like it.

    As someone else said: You don't throw out Canon Law, Church practice, prudence, and Tradition just because there is a Crisis in the Church. There are plenty of Traditional orders and Traditional bishops  that a priest may choose from. He just needs to choose one!

    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    My accounts (Paypal, Venmo) have been (((shut down))) PM me for how to donate and keep the forum going.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32904
    • Reputation: +29182/-596
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #94 on: February 11, 2020, 10:07:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have a feeling "Plenus Venter" is a priest -- just throwing that out there, so everyone makes sure to give him proper respect.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    My accounts (Paypal, Venmo) have been (((shut down))) PM me for how to donate and keep the forum going.


    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1566
    • Reputation: +1282/-100
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #95 on: February 11, 2020, 10:24:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have a feeling "Plenus Venter" is a priest -- just throwing that out there, so everyone makes sure to give him proper respect.
    Ha ha! God bless you Matthew, but it is not so! 
    I have a background not unlike your own...

    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11934
    • Reputation: +7292/-500
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #96 on: February 11, 2020, 10:38:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ha ha! God bless you Matthew, but it is not so!
    I have a background not unlike your own...
    Well, if you have a background not unlike Matthew's,  Mr. Venter, we'd still better show you respect! :incense:
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1566
    • Reputation: +1282/-100
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #97 on: February 12, 2020, 12:15:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you, Nadir, but I don't mean to place myself in the same category as our esteemed moderator.
    A hero member with your profile is more worthy of respect on this forum than a newbie like PV.
    But let us see Our Lord Jesus Christ in everyone, whether in person or on this forum, and there will be no problem with respect.
    What an incredible thing, that Our Lord takes as done to Himself whatever we do to another. How generous is not Our Lord? What endless opportunities. What a consolation it will be to us on our deathbed if we pay heed to this during our life. I am now inspired to spend more time meditating on this sublime truth!


    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11934
    • Reputation: +7292/-500
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #98 on: February 12, 2020, 01:29:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Amen!
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Nishant Xavier

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2873
    • Reputation: +1894/-1751
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #99 on: February 12, 2020, 02:39:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Unity and Fraternity among Priests as Brothers of one sacerdotal family among themselves and under their Bishop is so important, so much more than is sometimes recognized; the very credibility of the Church's Mission very often depends on it. There is only one Church, not several. The Priesthood must be one and inseparable; brother Priests united in Faith and Charity among themselves, and subject to and under the Apostolic Authority of their Bishop. So too the Bishops among themselves and under the Authority of the Roman Pontiff. That is how the Church was set up and has functioned for 2000 years, even in times of crisis. That is part of the reason the SSPX, which is rather strongly united among itself, with 650+ Priests, and 3 Bishops, also sees the necessity of having a relation to Rome, and not entirely cutting off that bond. By it, we remain united to the other Bishops of the Church, to the Successor of St. Peter, and finally to the Universal Church in every place.

    St. Ignatius of Antioch, disciple of the Apostles, Father of the Church, said this, on the obligation of all, especially Priests, to follow the Bishop; "But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils. See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

    Archbishop Lefebvre, 1983: "However, in our day and age, alas! trials are all too common. Obviously, we are living in an age of confusion within the Church and we have to get used to such trials. However, I hope that the situation will be straightened out and that maybe some of them will come back to join us once more, that some of them will do some thinking, and that God will give them light.

    In any case, I thank all of you here for remaining faithful to us, and we will remain faithful to you. We will carry on with what you have always seen in the Society. I gave Confirmation today just as I have given it in Oyster Bay Cove, in Armada, and elsewhere, in all the centers. I have changed nothing. So, I trust you will remain faithful and that we will be able to continue working together for the greater good of the Church, because there is nothing more disastrous, even in the face of Rome, than these divisions, because these divisions weaken us and weaken our fight for Tradition. So, let us pray that everything will be sorted out.

    Personally, I am not seeking to harm these priests may God be their judge! And I ask you not to get into polemics, but simply to follow us. You now have here a magnificent chapel. Come and attend Mass in this chapel with the priests of the Society, and, in the various centers, bring about a regrouping of the faithful staying with the Society, so that they keep their bond with Rome and with the Church. It is very important that there should always be the bond with Rome if we wish to remain Catholic; even if we do not agree with everything being done in Rome, I think the bond is absolutely indispensable." https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Conference_at_Long_Island.htm

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6790
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #100 on: February 12, 2020, 06:45:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Research and read.
    The SSPX was set up as a missionary order.  That is how it was able to have chapels (mission centers) all over the globe.

    I asked you about Archbishop Lefebvre referring to the SSPX as only as missionary order. For one thing, the SSPX has never been an 'order.' It was set up as a fraternity. There's a difference. Do you know the difference between orders and fraternities?

    When did +ABL ever refer to the SSPX as a missionary order (your claim) or fraternity? You mention that calling SSPX chapels  'parishes' or 'churches' goes against what +ABL taught, but why should you care about what +ABL taught, since he did not teach that the SSPX is limited as a missionary fraternity?

    Are you affiliated with the FSSP or the conciliar hierarchy? Or maybe just a disgruntled former SSPX adherent?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6790
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #101 on: February 12, 2020, 07:13:46 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Peter

    St. Peter and Meg, you bring up two different views, i.e. the applicability and non-applicability of canon law in a crisis situation. Do you know the views of the Priest/Bishops with regards to applicability/non-applicability of canon law among different Traditional groups (SSPX, Resistance, Sedevacantism)? Are only some canon laws applied while others are not applied? For example, CMRI and SSPX both appeal to supplied jurisdiction, but both diverge on their views about the Popes after Vatican II.

    I can't give any specifics at all regarding canon law and the crisis. And I don't think that it's really possible to give specifics in a crisis, since the situation isn't black-and-white.

    During the Arian Crisis, long ago, it's believed that St. Athanasius consecrated priests without the permission of the local ordinary. He may have also consecrated bishops, but then, if I recall correctly, a papal mandate or permission from the pope to consecrate bishops wasn't necessary back then.

    Remember what St. Athanasius famously stated in his letter to his followers regarding the Arian Crisis in the Church.

    St. Athanasius said...."May God console you!....what saddens you....is the fact that others have occupied the churches by violence, while during this time you are on the outside. It is a fact that they have the premises - but you have the Apostolic Faith. They can occupy our churches, but they are outside of the true faith. You remain outside of the places of worship, but the faith dwells within you. Let us consider: what is more important? The place or the Faith? The true faith, obviously."
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline St Peter

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 169
    • Reputation: +82/-80
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #102 on: February 12, 2020, 07:40:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • He (or she) is making up a term -- no one else uses it.

    There is already an official and widely-used term for what "St. Peter" is talking about: a vagus priest. It is a priest without a superior. No bishop, no religious order. A priest who wanders the earth, answering to no one but himself, offering Mass wherever the spirit takes him, or wherever he feels like it.

    As someone else said: You don't throw out Canon Law, Church practice, prudence, and Tradition just because there is a Crisis in the Church. There are plenty of Traditional orders and Traditional bishops  that a priest may choose from. He just needs to choose one!

    Can. 265 Every cleric must be incardinated either in a particular church or personal prelature, or in an institute of consecrated life or society endowed with this faculty, in such a way that unattached or transient clerics are not allowed at all.

    It was the same person who used the term transient clerics who also said "In a crisis of the Church, canon law is not thrown out the window! "

    I agree with you 100% that there are plenty of legit orders and bishops around for priests to choose from, but it is not just about the priest choosing.  The bishop/order must also accept the priest.

    For example, Fr. Pfeiffer says his superior is b. Fellay.  Fr. Pfeiffer can say it all he wants, but it doesn't make it so.  B. Fellay has made it perfectly clear that fr. Pfeiffer is no longer sspx and no longer his subordinate.

    Offline St Peter

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 169
    • Reputation: +82/-80
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #103 on: February 12, 2020, 08:14:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I asked you about Archbishop Lefebvre referring to the SSPX as only as missionary order. For one thing, the SSPX has never been an 'order.' It was set up as a fraternity. There's a difference. Do you know the difference between orders and fraternities?

    When did +ABL ever refer to the SSPX as a missionary order (your claim) or fraternity? You mention that calling SSPX chapels  'parishes' or 'churches' goes against what +ABL taught, but why should you care about what +ABL taught, since he did not teach that the SSPX is limited as a missionary fraternity?

    Are you affiliated with the FSSP or the conciliar hierarchy? Or maybe just a disgruntled former SSPX adherent?
    Meg,
    I have a copy of the original statutes of the sspx set up by ABL somewhere, but I have neither the time nor the energy to find it for you.  Forgive me.
    These links may help you:
    https://fsspx.uk/en/about/history
    https://www.romancatholicman.com/understanding-concerns-sspx/ (especially near the end, for you)

    Good luck in your research.

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6790
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer has lost his mind?
    « Reply #104 on: February 12, 2020, 08:21:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meg,
    I have a copy of the original statutes of the sspx set up by ABL somewhere, but I have neither the time nor the energy to find it for you.  Forgive me.
    These links may help you:
    https://fsspx.uk/en/about/history
    https://www.romancatholicman.com/understanding-concerns-sspx/ (especially near the end, for you)

    Good luck in your research.

    It's up to you to provide proof and post it, in order to back up your claim. I'm not going to research anything.

    What exactly is your motive for posting here? Are you trying to point out the excesses that exist in Tradition? If, so, then I, for one, am already aware of the excesses. One needn't go any further than this forum to see the problems that exist in Tradition. But one must be honest in their assessment of what constitutes excess (or error?).
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29