Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite  (Read 7145 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Motorede

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 333
  • Reputation: +192/-41
  • Gender: Male
Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
« Reply #90 on: September 06, 2019, 06:19:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That shows you had good will and God rewarded your search for Truth with the True Faith.
    Fr Hewko is not condemning those PEOPLE who do not yet know the truth.  He is condemning the new mass because it's wrong, whether you know it or not.  Condemning the new mass is different than condemning people.
    This is exactly what Fr Hewko is condemning - that the new church is a danger to the faith, for all catholics (whether they know it or not).  If they don't know it, then we must preach the truth and educate them.
    In your example, you were not converted/convinced to leave the new mass because of the graces you received from that service.  God brought to your eyes the errors of this liturgy because you had good will in your heart and through your prayers (i.e. you corresponded with actual graces).  It has nothing to do with sanctifying grace.
    .
    Actual graces can be received anywhere, always and by all - under they are dead.  You can receive actual graces every time you think about God, even if you're standing at a bus stop.  Sanctifying graces only come from the mass/sacraments.  No one can prove that the novus ordo offers this type of grace because it is not a mass and the communions may not be valid.  It is best to assume there is NO sanctifying grace, as Fr Hewko is saying.  If you assume the worst, and you instruct people about this doubtful issue, then they are more likely to leave this bad mass and come to Tradition.

    Exactly. To reinforce the truth in the highlighted paragraph above, many years ago I found an encouraging thought from Father Henri Didon, O.P., in his book, Jesus Christ: "When a man has done all in his power to learn his duty, he may still make mistakes, but he merits the help of God and God intervenes to save him."
    I think a whole lot of us here were rescued by Our Lady from the revolution, and our mistakes, and brought to the safety and sanity of Tradition, even though we were raised early on in the time of the Novus Ordo sacrilege and knew nothing else. This is because our parents, who did live before Vat.2, tried to do all in their power to maintain the truths of the past--even though that past was stolen from them and from us, their children. But they resisted the changes, prayed and waited (persevered) and gave us good example therein. And the true Mass returned one day (in the very early 1970s!) and we have never been without It since! Man's good will and his cooperation with graces will never be overlooked by God. As the Introit for the Mass of the Sacred Heart says: "My thoughts are from generation unto generation, to save their souls from death and to feed them in the time of famine." The Good Shepherd knows His sheep and they know His voice.


    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #91 on: September 06, 2019, 06:55:19 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0


  • But opposing countless intelligent bishops who have experience and years of sacrifice and dedication to the cause -- with my own weak opinion? That is pride, pure and simple.

    A little bell should go off when you are willing to believe that YOU ALONE have the truth, and all the theologians ON YOUR OWN SIDE -- including professors at the Seminary that formed you -- disagree with you. "Um... they all compromised! Yeah, that's it!"

    ...Sure they did.
    This may be a silly question, but based on this logic, how does it no behoove us to side with the Pope and the Bishops in normal communion with him, over Lefebvre and now Williamson?  Lefebvre is dead, so presumably you'd be siding with Williamson, and the 4 (I think) bishops he consecrated in 2017.  Based on the *logic* you present here, how are you epistemically justified in siding with that over the Pope?

    (BTW my gut tells me not to side with the current pope on much either, but I do sometimes wonder how I can epistemically justify that, and seeing this made me wonder)


    Offline Church Militant

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 63
    • Reputation: +20/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #92 on: September 06, 2019, 07:50:35 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The second sophistry is derived from his confusion surrounding the term "intrinsic evil," which is actually an ambiguous phrase: Something may be intrinsically evil in the realm of human acts, or it may be intrinsically evil in the realm of scholastic philosophy.

    If we are speaking of intrinsic MORAL evil, then there are no circuмstances which can make it permissible.

    It is in this sense which the Pfeifferians (and now Hewkonians/LaRosans) mistakenly believe the term "intrinsic evil" applies to the Novus Ordo.

    But it has never been in this moral sense in which the SSPX, Archbishop Lefebvre, or traditionalist apologists have used the term "intrinsic evil."

    Intrinsic evil as this term has been used in reference to the New Mass has pertained to its nature, not to the quality of the moral act of attendance.

    Evil as a term in scholastic philosophy means "The privation or lack of a good which naturally belongs to a nature; the absence of a good which is naturally due to a being." (Fr. Wuellner.  Dictionary of Scholastic Philosophy.  See "evil.").  

    Once again, it is in this sense which traditionalists have referred to the new Mass as "intrinsically evil," not the moral sense.

    In the same Dictionary of Scholastic Philosophy you quoted from above, the term "intrinsically evil" is also defined, so why are you distinguishing between "intrinsically evil" in the realm of the scholastic sense and the realm of the moral sense?  You make it sound like "intrinsically evil" in the moral sense is not a scholastic term.  As a matter of fact, the term "intrinsically evil" more properly applies to human acts whereas the simple term "evil" is sufficient to describe things in general because the definition you quoted above already speaks about "nature".

    Offline Merry

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 628
    • Reputation: +362/-99
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #93 on: September 06, 2019, 09:30:36 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0



  • THE LOSS OF THE OLD MASS    by Fr. Wathen

    It is well known that I am one of the few priests alive who have raised the issue of the morality of the Novus Ordo Missae. It is rather curious that most Traditionalist priests avoid this issue as if it were an infectious virus. The issue, however, cannot be avoided because it is absolutely basic and essential to our unhappy situation as disenfranchised Catholics; basic, because the morality of any act is the first thing a human being, as a creature of God, must determine: is this act a sin or not? After this question has been answered, other questions can be addressed: is this act advisable, dangerous, ridiculous, etc.?

    The question is essential because every Catholic of the Roman Rite must decide what he is going to do in the present crisis in the Church, and where he is going to Mass is the central question. That every Catholic must go to Holy Mass is a most serious obligation; those who exempt themselves will have to answer God for it, and He will not be bedazzled by anyone’s homegrown theology. I repeat for the sake of emphasis that everyone must assist at Mass on all Sundays and holydays, if he can reasonably do so.

    The most often he cannot, the more urgent it is that he do so the following Sunday. A person may not exempt himself if Mass is available, that is if Mass is being offered with due reverence by a validly ordained priest. The priest’s faulty theology does not exempt the lay person, as priests cannot be expected to be infallible and, whatever their real or imagined learning, lay people, with proper humility, must put it aside, in order to offer due worship to almighty God.

    The single exception is a case in which the priest requires that those in attendance formally assent to some theological aberration, such as “the three baptism,” or “Sedevacantism,” or the priest’s juridical authority over all present, or the authority and Catholicity of the Second Vatican Council, or the acceptableness of the New Mass, or something of this kind. Any theological reasoning which exempts a Catholic from attending Mass when he could and should be there is of the Devil.

    In 1970, despite my theological limitations, I presumed to treat the morality of the New Mass in the book, The Great Sacrilege.** Since, then, I have made an effort to convince everyone I spoke to that, under pain of mortal sin, he must not go to the New Mass for any reason whatsoever, even for weddings, funerals, and such things. The number of traditionalist Catholics who accept this position is probably in exact proportion to the priests who maintain it, which is very few.

    I bring the subject up here on the chance that some reading this have never come to grips with the issue, because their priests refuse to do so. I have simplified my argument over the years, because the question has been reduced to this: either saying the New Mass or attending is a mortal sin of sacrilege, or it is not. If it is a mortal sin, then it is a mortal sin always, like perjury and grand larceny. There are no situations nor conditions when attendance is not sinful. If saying the New Mass, or attending it, is not mortally sinful, then it is a good and obligatory act, and all are bound to be content with it, regardless of its innumerable faults.

    If the New Mass is not intrinsically bad, it is intrinsically good – it is now in all its renderings and evolutionary mutations the Mass of the Roman Rite, and the Church has the right to command us to accept it as such. Interestingly, priests who refuse to pronounce the New Mass a sacrilege protest that they would not offer the New Mass under the threat of death, presumably because to do so would be a grave compromise of their faith. They must answer why offering the New Mass is a totally different moral species from attending it. Such priests advise against, even warn against, going to the New Mass, but they do not forbid it under pain of serious sin.

    They classify the New Mass as “an occasion of sin,” by which they mean that at the New Mass, attendants hear things and see things which could be detrimental to their faith. Our arguments against the New Mass, the reasons we contend that it is a sacrilege, may be termed external and internal. The external argument is the Apostolic Constitution Quo Primum of Pope St. Pius V. For the honest person, there is not the slightest chance that the rulings and anathemas of this pontifical bull do not apply to the Novus Ordo Missae; if the law can be broken, those who gave us the New Mass broke it!

     Neither can the condemnations issued therein be construed as anything other or less than authoritative and mortal. The only counter argument that revolutionists in the Church ever brought against this conclusion is that “what Pope Pius V established, Pope Paul VI could legally put aside, override, abrogate, annul, etc.” This argument puts most people to silence, because they did not know how to say, or that they could and should say: this defense is entirely false! One pope cannot annul any and every law promulgated by any and all his predecessors back to St. Peter. As anyone with any sense would say: obviously, there are some things which a pope may change and some things he may not. The seriousness of the matter decides the case.

     Pope St. Pius V indicates in the strongest language possible that this law could most certainly never be contravened or set aside by his successors. I give a couple of examples:

    Furthermore, by these presents, in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, we grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the changing or reading of the Mass in any church [of the Roman Rite] whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever order or by whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is to be forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present docuмent cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force. Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this letter or heedlessly to venture to go contrary to this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Should anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul [the special patrons of the Roman Rite]. – Apostolic Constitution Quo Primum of Pope St. Pius V; July 14, 1570


    Anyone who says that these words do not mean what they say and have no perpetual binding force is saying that there are no words which have such force. He is saying, furthermore, that a sinister and revolutionary pope, such as Pope Paul VI was, can legally, though not morally,
    abrogate all the laws of the Church, except those relating to the natural law and the Ten Commandments, and every Catholic is bound in conscience to accept this. In a word, the Church has no way to establish anything in perpetuity, nor any way to defend itself against enemies within its bosom.

    It should not be necessary, but I insert here that, with regard to the Mass, one should not introduce the subject of papal infallibility, as it is non-applicable in this case. Papal infallibility has to do with teaching, not deciding liturgical matters, even the Divine Liturgy itself. The internal argument against the New Mass is a consideration of what the New Mass is. It should be sufficient to say that the New Mass is not the Old Mass; it is not merely a translation of the Old Mass; it is not a revision or an update, or a modernization of the Old Mass. It is not even a corrupted form of the Old Mass. It is a new thing, a new form, a new creation.

    Regardless of its resemblance to the Old Mass, it is not a “Mass” at all but a weapon! The reason we are able to say this is that the theology of the New Mass is completely different from the Old Mass. Its purpose – its reason for being – is completely different and positively antithetic to the Old Mass. Unless a person is able to grasp and accept this fact, he will continue to deny that it is a sacrilege, and maintain that he and everyone else may attend it as his whimsy directs him.

     The purpose of the Old Mass is to offer the sacrifice of Calvary anew in a sacramental ritual. The central and supreme purpose of the New Mass is to destroy the Old Mass by muscling it out of existence. A second and ancillary purpose of the New Mass is to teach the people the anti-religion of the Conciliar Revolution: the humanism, modernism, liberalism, and anti-Catholicism of the Council. That it has accomplished its purposes is proved by the condition of the Church today.

     That it is what those who instituted the New Mass intended is proved by the fact that, in the face of the destruction of the faith of the people, they continue to promote and protect the New Mass with their juridical power, and to persecute those who hold fast to the traditional Faith. And they continue adamantly to perpetuate the lie that the old and true Mass has been banned.

     The great problem many people have is seeing things that they are looking at. There is little or no harm in such blindness or obscurantism in the case of lesser matters, such as not perceiving that “modern art” is anti-art, or not recognizing that America is a socialist police state. Not seeing the deliberate and determined drive to destroy the Mass, when the fact is so blatant and undeniable, is gravely culpable. The chief difficulty in not seeing the obvious in this case is that the perpetrators are the popes, bishops, and the priests of the last thirty-six years. One must put aside all consideration of the supposed eminence and honorableness of those who have brought such evils upon us and focus on the evils themselves, beginning with the Novus Ordo Missae. A much more serious problem is that many people, even at this late date, do not know of the existence of the World Conspiracy which is masterminded by Satan himself. Satan wants to destroy all things good, but especially the supernatural life of men who are one with Christ in the Church. The way to destroy this life of grace is to destroy their faith and the holy Mass, which is our primary source of grace. The Mass is that act by which the mystical Christ, the “Whole Christ,” to use St. Augustine’s expression, Christ, the eternal high priest, with all those who are one with Him by Baptism and the Eucharist, offers His incarnate divinity to the Father in adoration and love.

     This ritual act, celebrated in countless places all over the world, was the source of all the grace which men received through the Holy Ghost for their conversion and salvation. Before the New Mass, this Mass was offered in hundreds of thousands of churches and chapels everywhere. “From the rising of the sun till the going down thereof,” Christ offered Himself for men, in atonement, in supplication, and in worship. Due to the New Mass, with the exception of those priests and people who dare to defy the True Mass-haters who have temporary control of things, the true Sacrifice has been swept from the earth.

     What is called the New Mass is more offensive to God than all the Protestant services and pagan rites of the world, because it mimics and mocks the all-holy Sacrifice, and perfidiously deceives those in attendance at the same time. It is the superlative act of lawlessness and hypocrisy, pretending to be a prayer, when it is nothing but a burlesque and a charade.

     That is what it is, regardless of the good intentions of the presiding clergyman and his trusting people. A great degree of the evil of the New Mass is in its deception of well-meaning people, although after so long a time very little excuse can be made for them. If all the light throughout the world were to be extinguished, so that there was only darkness both day and night, it would not be a greater tragedy than the suppression of the true Mass. This has been the Devil’s ambition and goal since the Last Supper: to rid the world of the hated Sacrifice, against which he is powerless.

     Nothing could be more offensive to God or injurious to men than what our religious superiors have done. Consider all the sins of the world: all the blasphemies, the impurities, the cruelties, the incessant, needless wars, the murders, the divorces, the abortions, the lies, the betrayals, the abandonment of God, and on and on. All these things are nothing compared to the loss of the Holy Mass, because it is through the Mass that forgiveness and mercy is gained for the world; it is through the Mass that God is worthily honored despite all.


    ** Bishop Salvador Lazo said that it was after reading The Great Sacrilege when he finally decided he must abandon the Novus Ordo and become Traditional. 
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #94 on: September 07, 2019, 05:14:20 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thanks Merry! :applause: :applause: :applause:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10306
    • Reputation: +6216/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #95 on: September 07, 2019, 02:56:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr Wathen died in 2006, God rest his soul.  Benedict’s motu propio of 2007 confirmed that Quo Primum was still 100% law, just as Fr had argued.  

    Offline Church Militant

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 63
    • Reputation: +20/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #96 on: September 07, 2019, 07:31:12 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Intrinsic evil as this term has been used in reference to the New Mass has pertained to its nature, not to the quality of the moral act of attendance.

    The distinction you make here between intrinsic evil in the New Mass and intrinsic evil in the moral act of attendance (or celebration) is a false one.  "New Mass" is the Novus Ordo Rite used to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  A rite is a formula of actions and words, which have moral implications.  If the formula of action and words is intrinsically evil, then using that formula to celebrate or attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is intrinsically evil.

    Offline Church Militant

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 63
    • Reputation: +20/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #97 on: September 10, 2019, 06:50:10 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If you listen to Bishop Williamson in this clip, it is clear that he once publicly held that active attendance at the Novus Ordo Rite of Mass is intrinsically evil.  How does Sean explain this away?



    Offline confederate catholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 813
    • Reputation: +285/-43
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #98 on: September 10, 2019, 08:33:22 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Communion-in-the-hand is a sacrilege, because only the priest's consecrated fingers are allowed to touch the Holy Eucharist.
    The hands of Deacons are not consecrated, they do not commit sacrilege by distributing communion, the faithful who in times past received communion in the hand historically did not commit sacrilege either. You must stop using the wrong type of argumentation in this type of discussion. The boarders of the two nearest Latin diocese in which I live for example say the most conservative type of NO, have Eucharistic Congresses and are relatively catechised. This type of flawed argumentation, confusing piety with fact does damage to the ability to reach people. Many traditional Catholics give these types of answers which leads people to say, They don't understand their own churches history, They don't know what they are talking about. Trust me when I say people read what is said on traditional forums, I can attest to being asked questions about what has been said. Let's not forget that
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #99 on: September 10, 2019, 09:33:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This may be a silly question, but based on this logic, how does it no behoove us to side with the Pope and the Bishops in normal communion with him, over Lefebvre and now Williamson?  Lefebvre is dead, so presumably you'd be siding with Williamson, and the 4 (I think) bishops he consecrated in 2017.  Based on the *logic* you present here, how are you epistemically justified in siding with that over the Pope?

    (BTW my gut tells me not to side with the current pope on much either, but I do sometimes wonder how I can epistemically justify that, and seeing this made me wonder)

    Your instincts are correct.  Only way to justify this is to entertain doubts about their legitimacy.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10306
    • Reputation: +6216/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #100 on: September 10, 2019, 09:48:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    The hands of Deacons are not consecrated, they do not commit sacrilege by distributing communion, the faithful who in times past received communion in the hand historically did not commit sacrilege either. You must stop using the wrong type of argumentation in this type of discussion. The boarders of the two nearest Latin diocese in which I live for example say the most conservative type of NO, have Eucharistic Congresses and are relatively catechised. This type of flawed argumentation, confusing piety with fact does damage to the ability to reach people. Many traditional Catholics give these types of answers which leads people to say, They don't understand their own churches history, They don't know what they are talking about. Trust me when I say people read what is said on traditional forums, I can attest to being asked questions about what has been said. Let's not forget that


    Ok, those are good points you made, but let me add some details to my original point, which was too general.  I did some research also, for clarity on the matter.  What I said is still generally correct.
    .
    1.  You are correct, a deacon is allowed to distribute Holy Communion, without consecrated fingers.  However, in pre-V2 times, the deacon was considered an Extraordinary minister of communion, only in times of need.  Currently, canon law says he is an ordinary minister, meaning he can fulfill this function anytime.  That's a big difference.
    .
    2.  A deacon is a cleric of the church, who takes vows and receives part of the ministry of the priesthood.  I think he has to take vows of celibacy (in the pre-V2 rite).  So he's as close to being a priest as one can get.  He's not simply a seminarian.  And his church office is FAR greater than any layman.
    .
    3.  In an emergency situation, a priest can be ordained very quickly, without the multiple-hours ceremony, and without the prayers/consecrations of his fingers.  As one poster on fisheaters said:  The blessings at ordination and the unction of the hands, (or of the head, at episcopal consecration) are mere sacramentals, not part of the Sacrament itself, nor necessary for validity or in se  for the lawful exercise of the priestly or deaconal ministry. They help and - if devoutly received and accepted - give subjective grace.
    .
    This seems logical to me.  The point is, the priest's function to handle the Holy Eucharist is contained in the sacrament itself; this blessing/power does not come from the "unction of the hands" ceremony, which is a beautiful part of the rite, but not necessary.  In the same way, the deacon, when he receives part of the priest's major orders, would also receive part of this priestly blessing/power, so he can touch the Holy Sacrament, but only when necessary or needed.
    .
    Laymen have NO special blessing/powers from this sacrament, or the Church.  Hence, to handle the Body of Our Lord, without an extreme necessity, is a grave sin.
    .
    4.  It is a historical lie that Christian laymen handled Our Lord with their hands on a normal basis.  The early Church was fractured, unorganized and under many, many persecutions for 300 years.  While it may have occurred during this time, once the Church was able to have peace and to properly function, the practice was stopped.  Such an allowance was made for many reasons, mostly due to the persecutions.  After the persecutions, it was not allowed at all.  It was never the norm.
    .
    Dr. Taylor Marshall has researched this subject and reports that Saint Basil (died 379 AD) had this to say on this subject.  “Communion in the hand is allowed only in two instances, 1) under times of persecution where no priest is present, 2) for hermits and ascetics in the wilderness who do not have priests.”  This point needs to be stressed; it was a rare exception, and not the norm. Otherwise, according to Saint Basil, to receive Communion in the hand was considered a “grave immoderation” under normal circuмstances. This practice goes way back in Church history. 
    .
    One of the earliest references we have about it is from Pope St. Sixtus I, who reigned from 115-125 AD, “it is prohibited for the faithful to even touch the sacred vessels, or receive in the hand”. Saint Paul himself mentions the importance of the Eucharist repeatedly in the scriptures and how one should not approach it unworthily in 1 Corinthians chapters ten and eleven.
    .
    https://catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/communion-in-the-hand-grave-error/


    Offline confederate catholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 813
    • Reputation: +285/-43
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #101 on: September 10, 2019, 11:01:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Dr Marshall is wrong there are liturgical texts predating Basil that still exist in oriental churches catholic and Orthodox which cite how to receive in the hand. Copts recieve this way using cloths, although this was recently done by the last Coptic patriarch.

    The quote from Sixtus is not from a historically reliable source. It was true in some areas that post Constantine prohibitions were put in place to curtail reception of communion in the hand. This is because it was done 

    In any way if Basil is saying there exist reasons when it can be done it can not be a sacrilege
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10306
    • Reputation: +6216/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #102 on: September 10, 2019, 11:31:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Dr Marshall is wrong there are liturgical texts predating Basil that still exist in oriental churches catholic and Orthodox which cite how to receive in the hand. Copts recieve this way using cloths, although this was recently done by the last Coptic patriarch.
    If St Basil came after such texts, then maybe St Basil was overruling past practices, because such were no longer necessary?  If such texts were AFTER St Basil, then you'd have an argument.
    .
    Secondly, the Latin rite has always been different than the Eastern rites.  This is why the Church does not let people change rites, willy-nilly, because different rites can cause scandal and confusion of Faith, even though essentially they are the same.

    Quote
    The quote from Sixtus is not from a historically reliable source.
    You'll have to prove your assertion here.

    Quote
    It was true in some areas that post Constantine prohibitions were put in place to curtail reception of communion in the hand.
    It's a historical fact that the Latin Church has always considered Communion in the hand to be a unique occurrence.  Therefore, the "reintroduction" of the practice after V2 is problematic, because in both the liturgy and in morality, we must be striving for perfection.  We cannot go backwards in our spiritual life, or in our practices of worshipping God.  At the VERY minimum, St Thomas teaches that only priests can touch Our Lord.  So, AT LEAST, this has been common for the Latin Rite since the 1200s. 

    Quote
    In any way if Basil is saying there exist reasons when it can be done it can not be a sacrilege
    You're not understanding the definition of a sacrilege, which is simply the profanation or unholy use of a sanctified person, place or thing.  Everyone can use holy water to bless themselves, but if you put holy water in your mouth and spit it out, that's a sacrilege.  You have profaned a holy thing. 
    .
    The act of the laity holding Our Lord is not a sacrilege inherently, but it is so when Holy Mother Church teaches that there are restrictions.  No one can argue that the laity have a reason to touch Our Lord, therefore unless it's necessary, such an act is unholy, therefore it's a sacrilege.  Our Lord is holy everywhere and always and independently of what the Church officials tell us.  They cannot suspend His holiness, or the sacredness of the Sacrament, anymore than they can suspend gravity.  While the Church does have the power for certain indults and allowances (as She did during the persecutions) She does not have the power to grant a carte-blanche holding of Our Lord, as has become common in the novus ordo (this assumes that Our Lord is even present in many of these fake masses, which is doubtful and I hope He is not, which would minimize the sacrileges committed and the offense against His Most Sacred Body).  There is no reason for communion-in-the-hand, and the Church does not have the power to grant such a permission.  It is supremely unholy and God is not pleased.  The loss of Faith which those experience who practice thus, is a proof that God withdraws graces from those who dare such an act.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #103 on: September 10, 2019, 01:13:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's highly debatable whether there was any officially-sanctioned Communion in the Hand anywhere.  There are a couple early sources which suggest it, but other sources indicate that the hands were placed under a cloth of some kind.  Nothing indicates that it was normative or even widespread.

    Offline confederate catholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 813
    • Reputation: +285/-43
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #104 on: September 10, 2019, 02:02:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Again Pax you don't get it. If a person approaches to receive communion to do so does not automatically equal sacrilege.

    Ladislas the texts exist in Oriental Churches, that doesn't mean it was common or widespread. The point was Pax stated communion in the hand invalidates the mass.
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا