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Author Topic: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite  (Read 8271 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
« Reply #75 on: September 06, 2019, 07:50:04 AM »
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  • Proof you are unable to properly digest what you read, and consequently have no idea what you are talking about:

    1) You think to rebut me by regurgitating my own argument (lol);

    2) You conveniently quote ABL saying HE CANNOT GO TO THE NOM ((just like I say I cannot go to the NOM, and both of us for the reasons already mentioned), but ignore Hodie’s quote of ABL speaking of OTHERS going to the NOM (ie., the ignorant or those in necessity):

    “I reply: Just because something is poisoned, it is not going to poison you if you go on the odd occasion.” (See final paragraph of Hodie’s post)
    Like all Liberals, you are confused.

    You said +ABL never said the new "mass" was intrinsically evil - you are proven wrong. It not only is intrinsically evil, Archbishop Lefebvre said it is intrinsically evil. It is therefore intrinsically evil although you say it isn't and you said +ABL never said it was. So you are 100% wrong.

    You conveniently quote ABL saying "Just because something is poisoned, it is not going to poison you if you go on the odd occasion" but  ignore Hodie’s quote of ABL saying he concluded that he cannot advise anyone to go because it's intrinsically evil.

    When's the last time you drank a little poison because that's all there was to drink?
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #76 on: September 06, 2019, 08:31:00 AM »
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  • Quote
    4) For this specific purpose (i.e., the transmission of sanctifying grace), if there is a sacrament + well-disposed communicant = grace passes.
    You are taking a general principle and applying it to circuмstances which don't make sense.  You are leaving out all kinds of factors, which affect the morality of the situation.
    .
    A valid baptism gets rid of Original sin, but is it a good and holy baptism if it is done in the middle of a rock concert, while Ozzy Osborne is on state screaming blasphemies?  Of course, this would be an abominable sacrilege and the participants would commit a heinous sin, even if the sacrament were valid. 
    .
    Going to mass provides grace, but am I allowed to show up to mass in pajamas, half-naked, and approach the communion rail as if nothing is wrong?  Of course, this would be a sacrilegious scandal, even if the communion would "provide grace".
    .
    A priest has the power to walk into a grocery store, go to the produce section, setup a table, and say mass.  Is "grace conferred"?  Yes and no.  Yes, in the sense that the mass would be valid, but no, in the sense that this act would be highly illegal and immoral because Church Law would forbid it and also such an act would be a sacrilegious and blasphemous use of his priestly abilities, taking no account of the reverence of Mass nor of the glory due to God by a proper church and liturgy. 
    .
    The circuмstances of an act, even if the act is a sacrament, affect the morality of the act.  This is philosophy 101.
    .
    Quote
    Pax has now invented a new invalidity of mass "communion in the hand." Wow. What part of the mass is communion in the hand? If a person receives kneeling and the next person receives standing does Jesus disappear because mass is now invalid?
    Many of you are falsely viewing this debate through the lens of validity only.  You are obsessed with this litmus test and ignoring all the other factors.  Even if the new mass could be proven to be 100% valid, every single time, one could still not go.  Because of the illegalities of the liturgy (which make it gravely sinful) and of the overall atmosphere which is anti-Catholic, irreverent and immoral.  Communion-in-the-hand is a sacrilege, because only the priest's consecrated fingers are allowed to touch the Holy Eucharist.  Communion-in-the-hand happens at 98% of every single novus ordo mass across the globe.  Therefore to attend such a liturgy, where this sacrilege occurs on a normal basis, is also a sacrilege because one is not allowed to attend liturgies which allow sin.  You would be openly and publically condoning this practice by your attendance.  This is not to mention all other other, varied sacrileges (talking, dancing, women altar girls, women/men Eucharistic ministers, dogs in the sanctuary, homo/gαy services, immodest attire in the sanctuary, etc, etc).  Validity, while an important question, is the least of the problems with the novus ordo.  If you think you can go to any valid mass, while all the above nonsense takes place, and think God is honored and glorified with such anti-religious and anti-Catholic activities, you just aren't thinking like a catholic.  At all.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #77 on: September 06, 2019, 08:34:50 AM »
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  • Like all Liberals, you are confused.

    You said +ABL never said the new "mass" was intrinsically evil - you are proven wrong. It not only is intrinsically evil, Archbishop Lefebvre said it is intrinsically evil. It is therefore intrinsically evil although you say it isn't and you said +ABL never said it was. So you are 100% wrong.

    You conveniently quote ABL saying "Just because something is poisoned, it is not going to poison you if you go on the odd occasion" but  ignore Hodie’s quote of ABL saying he concluded that he cannot advise anyone to go because it's intrinsically evil.

    When's the last time you drank a little poison because that's all there was to drink?

    You are an idiot.

    1) I have maintained from the beginning that the NOM is intrinsically evil, but in the scholastic/philosophical sense, not the moral sense (which is undoubtedly correct, or ABL could not have permitted exceptional attendance at it without himself sinning);

    2) I have also quoted ABL not only allowing exceptional attendance at the NOM, but also in the same quote asserting that one can receive sanctifying grace from it.

    3) The last time I drank poison because that was all there was to drink was when I had a beer, which contains alcohol (a poison which can kill you if you have too much) in trace amounts.

    I leave you morons to your slogans.

    If you couldn’t refute my position by now, I have no worries you shall be able to do so in the future (particularly since my position is the position of Archbishop Lefebvre).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #78 on: September 06, 2019, 08:37:20 AM »
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    “It must be understood immediately that we do not hold to the absurd idea that if the New Mass is valid, we are free to assist at it. The Church has always forbidden the faithful to assist at the Masses of heretics and schismatics even when they are valid. It is clear that no one can assist at sacrilegious Masses or at Masses which endanger our faith.…

    Here it is again, Sean.  Read it a few times and let it sink in.  +ABL is not in your corner.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #79 on: September 06, 2019, 08:49:15 AM »
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  • You are an idiot.

    1) I have maintained from the beginning that the NOM is intrinsically evil, but in the scholastic/philosophical sense, not the moral sense (which is undoubtedly correct, or ABL could not have permitted exceptional attendance at it without himself sinning);

    Your distinction is stupid and makes no sense whatsoever.  But, then, I've already pointed this out once.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #80 on: September 06, 2019, 08:59:09 AM »
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  • If you couldn’t refute my position by now, I have no worries you shall be able to do so in the future (particularly since my position is the position of Archbishop Lefebvre).
    Your liberal position has been repeatedly proven false, but it is exactly that - your position. Have another beer.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #81 on: September 06, 2019, 09:14:44 AM »
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  • Here it is again, Sean.  Read it a few times and let it sink in.  +ABL is not in your corner.

    I guess one last shot is deserved, in light of the stupidity of this post:

    Leaving aside the fact that it is ABL himself (quoted by Hodie) who acknowledged that it is not going to poison you if you go on the odd occasion (ie., extreme spiritual necessity), you are conveniently “forgetting” that the Church does NOT prohibit the faithful to receive valid sacraments from heretics and schismatic sin cases of extreme spiritual necessity, which is the situation we have been discussing from the beginning (despite your consistent efforts to interject quotes and principles which apply only generally, but not in all cases).

    If I am dying in a car crash, and a schismatic heretical priest can hear my confession, am I obliged to withhold making it??

    But Catholics can “never” participate in, or receive, sacraments from heretics or schismatics.

    Yet, if you concede this point (as you must), shall I then be justified in accusing you of promoting the reception of sacraments from heretics and schismatics (as you and your ignorant friends are doing)?

    The analogy carries over to all the other sacraments in necessity, presuming they are valid.

    Necessity dispenses with the law.

    The sooner you can wrap your head around that principle, the sooner you will understand real Catholic theology (though I harbor no hopes of you getting that far).

    Let the sophistries, slogans, and gnashing of teeth resume!

    Adieu.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #82 on: September 06, 2019, 09:22:29 AM »
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  • Uhm, I already made the distinction between going to Mass vs. receiving the Sacraments.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #83 on: September 06, 2019, 09:24:04 AM »
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  • Adieu.

    ... AND ... there it is.

    Typical Johnson MO.  When he gets thoroughly refuted by the evidence, he abandons the thread.

    Now, the next step is we can expect a series of spam threads created by him in which he restates his contention in a fresh context ... without the burden of this thorough refutation and beatdown.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #84 on: September 06, 2019, 10:31:21 AM »
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    If I am dying in a car crash, and a schismatic heretical priest can hear my confession, am I obliged to withhold making it??
    Confession is necessary for salvation if one is in mortal sin; mass and Holy Communion are not, to the same degree at all.


    Quote
    But Catholics can “never” participate in, or receive, sacraments from heretics or schismatics.
    Canon Law allows schismatics and heretics (even atheists) to provide baptism, in cases of necessity.  Heretics/schismatics can also hear confessions in emergencies.  Don't think that Holy Communion is allowed in the same sense.  If it is (and I'm not sure), the liturgy would have to be catholic and moral and valid.  The new mass is not catholic or moral.  That's the difference.
    .
    Even in cases of necessity, one cannot commit a sin against Faith, to receive grace.  If you were dying and a heretic priest came to you and said, "I can hear your confession, but you first must admit that Our Lady committed at least one sin."  Or, "I will hear your confession, but you must say that the Patriarch in Greece is just as important as the pope in rome."  You can't do that.  In any way, shape or form.
    .
    In the same way, the novus ordo is a new religion, with V2 heresies as part of its new theology and new liturgy.  Ergo, to attend it, is a sin against Faith.  Even if you skipped the entire mass and waited in the lobby until Communion time, then received communion, then left immediately, this would be wrong.  You are not allowed to scandalize your fellow man by participating (even slightly) in a "mass" which is contrary to Catholic theology and against the 1st commandment, and illegal, and immoral (since others would be receiving communion in the hand right next to you).  You cannot commit a sin, to receive grace.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #85 on: September 06, 2019, 10:48:03 AM »
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  • “I reply: Just because something is poisoned, it is not going to poison you if you go on the odd occasion.” (See final paragraph of Hodie’s post)
    I want to add that this can be misleading because about 20 years ago, I attended a NO funeral service of a young man from work who died, and I was sick for a week after that. It was certainly a poison, one that I did not expect could do any harm, boy was I wrong.


    If I am dying in a car crash, and a schismatic heretical priest can hear my confession, am I obliged to withhold making it??

    But Catholics can “never” participate in, or receive, sacraments from heretics or schismatics.

    Yet, if you concede this point (as you must), shall I then be justified in accusing you of promoting the reception of sacraments from heretics and schismatics (as you and your ignorant friends are doing)?

    The analogy carries over to all the other sacraments in necessity, presuming they are valid.

    Necessity dispenses with the law.
    This is another idea that should really never concern faithful trads - on their death beds, God does not send heretic priests to faithful trads who've only partaken in the true Mass and sacraments from faithful trad priests, and avoided everything NO while they lived.

    And when the danger of death is imminent, Trent says that no matter what the crimes of the priest are or what censures he is under, he may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sin - but the Church allows this only in an emergency situation where death is imminent. So you cannot rightfully use this exception to justify attending the evil thing even occasionally. Necessity is not danger of death.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Marys Anawim

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #86 on: September 06, 2019, 12:51:01 PM »
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  • Me and my husband were both born into the novus ordo not even knowing about the TLM or true faith...God did however  bring us to the true faith and the TLM and the knowledge understanding and practice of many aspects of living the faith. I do not agree with Fr. Hewko on this point but I think that people tend to be too hard on each other in the fact that each person is trying to follow God and the faith to the best that they can...we no longer go to any novus ordo mass or parish however because there are many heretical beliefs within the conciliator church. we believe it is a danger to a persons soul. 
    So my main points are that we love Fr.Hewko and believe he has a point but that no one can really definitively state that no grace comes from the novus ordo because God in his goodness mercy and love can bring a person to the true faith no matter where they are.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #87 on: September 06, 2019, 01:53:44 PM »
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    Typical Johnson MO.  When he gets thoroughly refuted by the evidence, he abandons the thread.
    Hey, he lasted 6 pages.  That's pretty good for him.  :laugh1:

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #88 on: September 06, 2019, 02:05:01 PM »
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    Me and my husband were both born into the novus ordo not even knowing about the TLM or true faith...God did however  bring us to the true faith and the TLM and the knowledge understanding and practice of many aspects of living the faith.
    That shows you had good will and God rewarded your search for Truth with the True Faith.

    Quote
    I do not agree with Fr. Hewko on this point but I think that people tend to be too hard on each other in the fact that each person is trying to follow God and the faith to the best that they can.
    Fr Hewko is not condemning those PEOPLE who do not yet know the truth.  He is condemning the new mass because it's wrong, whether you know it or not.  Condemning the new mass is different than condemning people.

    Quote
    ..we no longer go to any novus ordo mass or parish however because there are many heretical beliefs within the conciliator church. we believe it is a danger to a persons soul. 
    This is exactly what Fr Hewko is condemning - that the new church is a danger to the faith, for all catholics (whether they know it or not).  If they don't know it, then we must preach the truth and educate them.

    Quote
    So my main points are that we love Fr.Hewko and believe he has a point but that no one can really definitively state that no grace comes from the novus ordo because God in his goodness mercy and love can bring a person to the true faith no matter where they are.
    In your example, you were not converted/convinced to leave the new mass because of the graces you received from that service.  God brought to your eyes the errors of this liturgy because you had good will in your heart and through your prayers (i.e. you corresponded with actual graces).  It has nothing to do with sanctifying grace.
    .
    Actual graces can be received anywhere, always and by all - under they are dead.  You can receive actual graces every time you think about God, even if you're standing at a bus stop.  Sanctifying graces only come from the mass/sacraments.  No one can prove that the novus ordo offers this type of grace because it is not a mass and the communions may not be valid.  It is best to assume there is NO sanctifying grace, as Fr Hewko is saying.  If you assume the worst, and you instruct people about this doubtful issue, then they are more likely to leave this bad mass and come to Tradition.

    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #89 on: September 06, 2019, 05:30:13 PM »
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  • The Novus Ordo as far as I am concerned is an abomination.   The problem arises though when some Catholics do not agree on this fact.  I have known Catholics that were denied Holy Communion at traditional chapels because they believed that that the Novus Ordo, even though not as good as the traditional Mass, was still valid, and until a Pope settled the matter, they could go to either.  

    It’s a problem because absent a Pope ruling on the matter, there is no authority to force Catholics to agree that they cannot go to the Novus Ordo, if their own conscience is not convinced that they must avoid it.