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Author Topic: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite  (Read 19052 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2019, 12:17:28 PM »
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  • To be consistent, you must maintain that he was a terrible modernist, who induced people to commit intrinsically evil acts in attending the new Mass (e.g., In the quote from his spiritual conference I provided, but also in his 1980 acknowledgement that those attending the NOM fulfill their Sunday obligation (which could not be the case if they were committing intrinsically evil moral acts).

    PS: If the Japanese kept the faith, did they also keep the state of grace?  All Catholic theologians would consider that morally impossible without the sacraments (and any belief to the contrary is pious wishful thinking).

    Wow, where to begin unraveling this?

    It's clear from the +Lefebvre quote that AT THE TIME he was considering the NOM to be EXTRINSICALLY evil, evil because of the harm it does to the faith.  That was his reasoning at the time of making those quotations.  At different times over the years, he became more hard line on the NOM.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #46 on: September 05, 2019, 12:19:37 PM »
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  • Ok, then maybe Holy Viaticuм is the only exception...provided of course, that you knew the priest and the consecration was valid.
    .
    Then the same would apply to Holy Communion, if there is no acceptable mass to provide it.

    No, you're confusing apples and oranges.  Mass attendance is necessary based on positive law, and positive law does not oblige absolutely, under all circuмstances.  Holy Communion would be necessary, in danger of death, for the prospects of one's salvation ... not because of any law requiring its reception.


    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #47 on: September 05, 2019, 12:20:47 PM »
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  • The catholics in England were martyred rather than attend an Anglican mass, one in which the only change (at first) was a philosophical one, that is, the mass was offered without the pope, in honor of King Henry VIII.  Catholics died rather than be part of this schism and blasphemy (and the Anglican communions would've been valid, let's not forget).  Yet it's ok for one to attend the new mass, which is FAR worse than the Anglican heresy, and which has FAR more blasphemies/sacrileges involved?  It makes no sense.

    The Anglican heresy/schism clearly arose from a heretical act of mad King Henry VIII.  This would have been crystal clear to any true practicing Catholic wherein even the uneducated laity could discern the same for themselves, wherein they could act in accordance with their conscience.  And in so doing, many chose death instead of a clear heresy.  But the new mass was promulgated by the Pope.  How is it, then, that you can unequivocally say, with 100% confidence, that the new mass is entirely invalid? More important, how are the masses of the uneducated laity supposed to know this?  Is it all one big trick, wherein billions have been fooled, and only the Catholic intelligentsia are able to recognize the truth?  To me, that is what makes no sense.  And I ask this question in all sincerity as it is one I simply can not get my mind around.    

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #48 on: September 05, 2019, 12:22:14 PM »
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  • There's a lot of debate regarding the degree and nature of the badness of the NOM.

    Is it bad in and of itself, when reverently implemented, or bad mostly because of the abuses which regularly accompany it?

    Is it bad in and of itself or bad because it tends to harm the faith?

    Lots of people swirl around on this issue, so it's understandable for there to be a considerable degree of confusion.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #49 on: September 05, 2019, 12:22:24 PM »
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    as they wholly reject going to the new jazz because of what it is - a sacrilege against the propitiatory sacrifice of Calvary.
    :laugh1:  I think the "new jazz" is offensive to classical jazz and certainly it is not as good as the current novus ordo music options - 1) meandering folk songs sang in operatic style by obese, ugly women, or 2) the new age, protestant-style guitar riff played by a former woodstock dude, accompanied by a hippie woman who is consistently off-key.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #50 on: September 05, 2019, 12:27:18 PM »
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  • I've seen a Novus Ordo Mass done entirely in Latin, accompanied by the usual Gregorian Chant from the Kyriale, with the priest facing the altar, with people kneeling for Holy Communion and remaining reverent and attentive the entire time.  That Anaphora I is 98% the Roman Canon, with just a few minor alterations.

    Is it, under those conditions, positively harmful to the faith?  I think that it's hard to argue that it is.

    So the question of its badness must go beyond the specifics of any given implementation (whether very reverent or not reverent at all).

    But if people witness the reverent NOM I described above vs. being regularly exposed to Clown Masses, then their perception of how bad it is might vary.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #51 on: September 05, 2019, 12:47:06 PM »
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  • Wow, where to begin unraveling this?

    It's clear from the +Lefebvre quote that AT THE TIME he was considering the NOM to be EXTRINSICALLY evil, evil because of the harm it does to the faith.  That was his reasoning at the time of making those quotations.  At different times over the years, he became more hard line on the NOM.

    Wow, where to begin unraveling this?

    The issue of intrinsic vs extrinsic evil is not germain to Lefebvre’s quote (except very indirectly); he is not discussed that point.

    He is explicitly referring to the hardliners who say nobody should EVER attend a conservative NOM, and disagreeing with them, and explicitly mentioning as an exception those who would lose the faith if they could not attend Mass for a prolonged period of time (textbook example of grave spiritual necessity).

    That his position later hardened is acknowledged by all, but he never ever hardened to the point of reversing or recanting this exception (not could he, without sinning, and taking upon his own conscience those who would have been damned for having lost the faith in an attempt to abide by such an idiotic and uncatholic rule).

    Not even the 1981 pledge of fidelity (by which all SSPX priests promised never to positively advise someone to attend the new Mass”) precludes this, since necessity is a cause excusing from the law.

    The Pfeifferian/Hewkonian/LaRosan error has made a caricature of Lefebvre’s position.

    Note to Pax: If you are now backing away from your initial claim that the NOM is intrinsically evil in the moral sense (which is good to see), then you are simultaneously and unavoidably compelled to acknowledge there can be circuмstances which make that attendance permissible, since it is only intrinsically evil moral acts which allow for no exceptions.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #52 on: September 05, 2019, 12:48:46 PM »
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  • The Anglican heresy/schism clearly arose from a heretical act of mad King Henry VIII.  This would have been crystal clear to any true practicing Catholic wherein even the uneducated laity could discern the same for themselves, wherein they could act in accordance with their conscience.  And in so doing, many chose death instead of a clear heresy.  But the new mass was promulgated by the Pope.  How is it, then, that you can unequivocally say, with 100% confidence, that the new mass is entirely invalid? More important, how are the masses of the uneducated laity supposed to know this?  Is it all one big trick, wherein billions have been fooled, and only the Catholic intelligentsia are able to recognize the truth?  To me, that is what makes no sense.  And I ask this question in all sincerity as it is one I simply can not get my mind around.    
    You need to understand that the laity who accepted the new mass had a multitude of different excuses for doing so.
    From observation back in the late 60s; [false] obedience to the pope was, and likely still is, probably the most popular excuse. Even now, there are a multitude of people, including trads, who struggle with this particular excuse. Being offered the "wide road" was all it took/takes for the many. What you are seeing today is the many who are taking the easy road - that leads to perdition.

    You have to accept the fact that those who abandoned the True Mass for the New "mass" did so of their own free will - the pope did not force it upon anyone. Accept that everyone who goes NO, does so of their own free will.

    The pope is a human, he is only infallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra - beyond that, he can err himself right into hell same as the rest of us - even perpetrate a sacrilegious liturgy.

    Believe your eyes and you'll believe reality, reality is that popes can do what the conciliar popes have done - the people who lose their faith on his account are foolish and will not be able to blame the pope at their particular judgement - instead, perhaps God Himself will ask them - did I or did I not tell you to beware? 

      
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #53 on: September 05, 2019, 12:50:02 PM »
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    How is it, then, that you can unequivocally say, with 100% confidence, that the new mass is entirely invalid

    I do not say it is 100% invalid.  I say its validity is 100% doubtful, as did Cardinal Ottaviani and Bacci, who were the top theologians in rome, in the 60s.  There are 3 major doubts:  1) consecration, 2) validity of the mass in general (being it has protestant, anti-Trent theology), and 3) priestly ordinations.  Canon law does not allow one to attend doubtful masses or sacraments, under penalty of grave sin.
    .
    On the contrary, even if we could say that the consecration was 100% valid and the priests were 100% priests, it is still wrong to attend 100% because 1) it is an illegal mass, which is sinful to say/attend, per Quo Primum.  2) The new mass, as a whole, still has anti-catholic theology and also a deficient offertory and other canon prayers.  This makes the new mass, as whole, invalid because it's purpose is not as Christ created the mass  3) The new mass' atmosphere promotes irreverence, sacrileges (i.e. communion in the hand), and protestant thinking.


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    More important, how are the masses of the uneducated laity supposed to know this?  Is it all one big trick, wherein billions have been fooled, and only the Catholic intelligentsia are able to recognize the truth?  To me, that is what makes no sense. 
    Those who were adults in the 60s and 70s knew their Faith.  They were not fooled into accepting the new mass or V2 - they wanted it.  Those that did not, God provided to them priests who started the Traditionalist movement.
    .
    Those baby boomers who were young in the 60s and 70s have grown up.  They are now the people at the local dioceses who hate the indult mass, who ignored Fatima, who loved JPII's theatrical presence and his global popularity, who didn't like Benedict's "conservatism" and who love Francis, because he is continuing to water down ideals and make the church a "welcoming place" to all kinds of diversity.  No, the baby boomers have rejected Tradition too, and have accepted V2's ideals on the whole.  They've been aware of the sspx since the 80s.  They've had the opportunity of latin masses both indult and Traditional for 4 solid decades.  They don't want true catholicism.
    .
    The millenial generation, however, is way more accepting of the indult/latin mass.  They are more open to the True Faith, and God has provided them ways to find it, especially through the internet.  Where there's a will, there's a way (especially when it comes to Truth and salvation).  Our chapel is full of people who found Tradition in the most obscure ways.  They had good will; God did the rest.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #54 on: September 05, 2019, 12:51:48 PM »
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  • I've seen a Novus Ordo Mass done entirely in Latin, accompanied by the usual Gregorian Chant from the Kyriale, with the priest facing the altar, with people kneeling for Holy Communion and remaining reverent and attentive the entire time.  That Anaphora I is 98% the Roman Canon, with just a few minor alterations.

    Is it, under those conditions, positively harmful to the faith?  I think that it's hard to argue that it is.

    So the question of its badness must go beyond the specifics of any given implementation (whether very reverent or not reverent at all).

    But if people witness the reverent NOM I described above vs. being regularly exposed to Clown Masses, then their perception of how bad it is might vary.

    It might not be harmful to the faith, but it would still be intrinsically evil in the scholastic (but not moral) sense, since howsoever they might put traditional veneers upon that Rite, it still lacks an offertory and any reference to sacrifice and a sacrificial priesthood.

    As a humorous aside, the Church of St. Agnes in St. Paul, MN has been doing precise such s Mass, and even has “solemn high” Novus Ordo Mass in Latin (despite the fact that the order of sub-deacon was suppressed!).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #55 on: September 05, 2019, 12:54:49 PM »
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    Note to Pax: If you are now backing away from your initial claim that the NOM is intrinsically evil in the moral sense (which is good to see), then you are simultaneously and unavoidably compelled to acknowledge there can be circuмstances which make that attendance permissible, since it is only intrinsically evil moral acts which allow for no exceptions.
    I said from the beginning, only the Church can decide the intrinsic question..or at least not me.  I tend to believe it is intrinsically evil (as +Ottaviani said, it has an anti-Trent theology...how can something anti-Trent be catholic?  How can this be good?)  Even if it's not intrinsically evil, there are 100s of other reasons one cannot attend, both related to church law and related to circuмstantial moral issues in its atmosphere.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #56 on: September 05, 2019, 12:59:48 PM »
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  • I've seen a Novus Ordo Mass done entirely in Latin, accompanied by the usual Gregorian Chant from the Kyriale, with the priest facing the altar, with people kneeling for Holy Communion and remaining reverent and attentive the entire time.  That Anaphora I is 98% the Roman Canon, with just a few minor alterations.

    Is it, under those conditions, positively harmful to the faith?  I think that it's hard to argue that it is.

    So the question of its badness must go beyond the specifics of any given implementation (whether very reverent or not reverent at all).

    But if people witness the reverent NOM I described above vs. being regularly exposed to Clown Masses, then their perception of how bad it is might vary.
    When the changes were still new, we went to a NOM said entirely in Latin maybe 4 or 5 times - had to drive way down to Detroit for it. It was said in one of the beautiful old Italian Churches funded by one of the Detroit Mafia families who hated the changes, if it weren't for that, they would never have gotten away with saying it that way.
     
    If you went to that Mass, you knew there was something different, but aside from it being very short, you didn't really know what changed because it was said ad orientem and quietly.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #57 on: September 05, 2019, 02:48:13 PM »
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  • The issue of intrinsic vs extrinsic evil is not germain to Lefebvre’s quote (except very indirectly); he is not discussed that point.

    It most certainly is.  His major consideration is how harmful it is to a person's faith.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #58 on: September 05, 2019, 02:54:21 PM »
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  • It most certainly is.  His major consideration is how harmful it is to a person's faith.

    But the degree to which it harms is not dependent upon whether that harm has an intrinsic or extrinsic cause.

    It just maters that there is harm.

    In any case, ABL was not discussing that issue in the lengthy quote provided (the words intrinsic and extrinsic do not occur).  His who conference is to prove that we ought not be so absolute and strict -in direct contradiction to a few posters in this thread- in the general rule of NOM avoidance (e.g., ina case of grave spiritual necessity, which eh discusses in the conference).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #59 on: September 05, 2019, 03:24:09 PM »
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    It might not be harmful to the faith, but it would still be intrinsically evil in the scholastic (but not moral) sense, since howsoever they might put traditional veneers upon that Rite, it still lacks an offertory and any reference to sacrifice and a sacrificial priesthood.
    I agree, a "reverent" novus ordo is still wrong because it's not a mass, which REQUIRES the idea of sacrifice. 
    .
    The question of harm to one's faith is of secondary importance (if that high) when considering the evil of the new mass.  What is of the highest importance is the question:  Is God honored, glorified, asked for forgiveness and thanked for all His goodness?  Is God worshipped as He deserves?  Is the sacrifice offered to Him perfect and spotless? 
    .
    The true mass is about God, for God, and prayed to God.  The new mass is centered on "the people".  The true theology looks at Mass as being present at the sacrifice of Calvary.  The novus ordo looks at mass as being present at the Holy Thursday communion service.  They couldn't be more opposite in purpose or in focus.  Is God's justice appeased without sacrifice?  No.  The new mass is evil because it pretends to be a sacrifice, when it's just a Eucharistic memorial.