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Author Topic: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite  (Read 8263 times)

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Offline Hodie

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Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2019, 07:49:19 AM »
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  • It's a good thing the original, pioneer trads did not think like Sean. If they did, then there would be no TLM today. They are the ones who saw the NOM for what it is and did not participate in it for any reason. Lucky thing too because otherwise, they would not have preserved it for you to boast your "take it or leave it" thinking. And you went to St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary?  

    As for +ABL and other trad priests and bishops who would probably die rather than be caught saying the new "mass" for any reason, yet condone the attendance of it by others rather than wholly and vehemently condemning it for what it is, what do you call them? Consistent? Simpleminded?  Newbies, or just not well-read?

    Coming from an ex trad seminarian, your defense of the New "mass" dishonors STAS - or is that what they teach there? It also dishonors the trials and efforts of all those courageous pioneer trads who wholly condemned the NOM for what it is, and handed down and preserved the True Mass - just so you could boast that there is some type of justification in compromising. +ABL called that Liberal Thinking.  
    Well said, Stubborn! This is exactly what comes to mind reading SJ's pontificating.
    Let's keep things in perspective. What did we fight for all these past decades? We did not fight to compromise on the New 'Mess'. It wasn't to compromise on the New Mass that so many priests were persecuted in the 1970's and 1980's! Did all these priests fight in vain? Were these confessors of the Faith 'simple-minded,' 'poorly-educated', newbies?'
    For shame, SJ.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #31 on: September 05, 2019, 07:59:15 AM »
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  • So sorry to burst your bubble, but my position is the position is the position of Archbishop Lefebvre (a pioneer trad).

    And who is talking about any trad clergy saying the new Mass besides you?

    You are obviously delusional about what the position of what the position of Lefebvre, SSPX, and pioneer trad priests really was (who never did or could preclude NOM attendance in subjective/individual cases of necessity, despite the general/objective policy of avoiding it.....as the quote from Lefebvre ‘s spiritual conference above makes clear).

    You don’t know your history.
    By paragraph:

    1) It's not my bubble, it's just the truth. As for history, +ABL was happily retired when it was a a group of lay people who went to him, pleading for him to support the fight against the new jazz.

    2) You certainly have a reading comprehension problem.

    3) So what do you call them for condoning others to addend it while they themselves would not be caught saying it? Consistent? Simpleminded?  Newbies, or just not well-read?

    4) See #1. BTW, I lived it, for me it's historical reality. You don't know the history of how we (trads) came into existence.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #32 on: September 05, 2019, 08:11:58 AM »
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  • Well said, Stubborn! This is exactly what comes to mind reading SJ's pontificating.
    Let's keep things in perspective. What did we fight for all these past decades? We did not fight to compromise on the New 'Mess'. It wasn't to compromise on the New Mass that so many priests were persecuted in the 1970's and 1980's! Did all these priests fight in vain? Were these confessors of the Faith 'simple-minded,' 'poorly-educated', newbies?'
    For shame, SJ.

    That the exceptional allowance for NOM Mass attendance for those in extreme necessity (per Archbishop Lefebvre, above) is interpreted as compromise does not speak well for the intellectual caliber (or honesty) of those making that argument.

    Nor does the belief that the intrinsic evil of the NOM is moral rather than philosophical/scholastic (which would impute legions of mortal sins to Archbishop Lefebvre for permitting it).

    Right now, the SSPX CI monitors are howling with laughter at the ignorance displayed, and saying to each other, “Johnson even quoted ABL, and they completely ignored and dismissed it in order to maintain their own erroneous positions.”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #33 on: September 05, 2019, 08:34:03 AM »
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  • Where did Father Hewko use the term "intrinsically"?  He simply said that it is never permitted to attend the Novus Ordo Mass.  Seems to me that you're the one who injected the term into the conversation and then attacked him for it.  PS -- your distinction between intrinsic in "human acts" vs. in "scholastic philosophy" is ridiculous.  I know what you're trying to say ... morally vs. ontologically ... but you stumbled and bumbled all over it.  Even then it's a false distinction.  All you can say is that there's not necessarily any subjective culpability for attending if the person has not arrived at the conclusion that it is in and of itself bad.  But that has nothing to do with whether, objectively, it's OK to attend the NOM.  That's also the distinction which has been missed in going after Bishop Williamson.  At no point did he say that it was objectively OK or permissible or pleasing to God.  He simply stated that, subjectively speaking, one might receive grace from attending, due to one's subjective dispositions.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #34 on: September 05, 2019, 09:02:55 AM »
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    1) You believe the NOM is intrinsically evil in the moral sense.  But the Church cannot promulgate rites which are intrinsically evil in the moral sense.  Therefore the Church did not promugate the NOM.  You are thereforee compelled to embrace sedevacantism if you wish to maintain your opinion.
    No to all.

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    2) I notice you are now using the term "deficient."  This is good, as it is synonomous with "evil" in the scholastic sense.  This will put you on the right path (although it contradicts what you said just above).
    The novus ordo is evil because it is deficient.  We are duty bound to offer to God the highest praise we can.  If we do not, we are guilty like Cain and God will reject our offering.

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    3) Who is talking about validity?  You are objecting to the idea that it is ever morally permissible to attend a NOM (e.g., even in necessity).  You are doing this because you mistakenly believe the NOM is intrinsically evil in the moral sense, rather than in the scholastic/philosophic sense.  
    An illegal mass, with a consistently immoral/irreverent/irreligious/anti-Catholic atmosphere is wrong to attend 100% of the time.  Intrinsically evil or not.

    Quote
    4) On the contrary: You had stipulated that the black Mass would be valid.  Therefore, a well-disposed communicant would receive the transmission of sanctifying grace.
     You're not distinguishing between the consecration/canon and the mass as a whole.  See below.

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    6) You are confusing yourself, saying firstly that the consecration is valid, but later in the same paragraph that there is no Mass.  Which is it?  In any case, all that matters is that the consecration be valid, and the communicant well-disposed.  If those two conditions are present, sanctifying grace is transmitted.
    The consecration of a mass could be valid (as at a black mass), but the mass as a whole would be invalid (because it's purpose is evil).  You have to distinguish between the consecration and the mass overall.  If a priest dies right after the consecration, then mass is not complete.  The consecration is only PART of the mass.  Ergo, the novus ordo can have a valid consecration but still not be a mass, nor be pleasing to God, because the sacrifice/consecration has a deficient offertory purpose and a sacrilegious communion service.  Ergo, as a whole, the new mass is an abomination.

    7) Yes.

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    8: "Intrinsically evil acts of the natural law??"  Aside from being off point, this implies nobody has been deceived about the evil of the NOM, which is obviously not the case.  In fact, the majority of people fall into the opposite category (i.e., they have been deceived into believing it is good).

    If you talk to people who were adults during the 60s and 70s, they all knew that the new mass was novel, was different, was contrary to their catholic upbringing.  Most of them accepted it because they wanted an easier church.  Or they didn't want to be different from their neighbors.  Or they didn't want to be kicked out of the diocese and be an outcast Trad.  Only the very old and very young (who couldn't be expected to know what was going on) were fooled.  It's a fact of history that this generation embraced the novus ordo as a whole.
    .
    Sure people have been deceived and they are not culpable for attending this farce.  But the new mass is still wrong, even if they don't know.  Sin is an offense against God, which exists outside of our mind, so that the offense still occurs even if we are unaware.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #35 on: September 05, 2019, 09:09:36 AM »
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    That the exceptional allowance for NOM Mass attendance for those in extreme necessity (per Archbishop Lefebvre, above) is interpreted as compromise does not speak well for the intellectual caliber (or honesty) of those making that argument.

    +ABL wasn't infallible and many Trads disagreed with him on this topic.  IMO, his allowance for the new mass in extreme necessity has led the new-sspx to the philosophical problems of today.  If you allow that the novus ordo is ok sometimes, then you are saying that it could be a pleasing mass to God, in theory.  Therefore, we should all search for the good novus ordo priest who says the good novus ordo mass and join new-rome's ecuмenical party.  That's exactly what the FSSP did and what the new-sspx is doing.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #36 on: September 05, 2019, 09:59:55 AM »
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  • +ABL wasn't infallible and many Trads disagreed with him on this topic.  IMO, his allowance for the new mass in extreme necessity has led the new-sspx to the philosophical problems of today.  If you allow that the novus ordo is ok sometimes, then you are saying that it could be a pleasing mass to God, in theory.  Therefore, we should all search for the good novus ordo priest who says the good novus ordo mass and join new-rome's ecuмenical party.  That's exactly what the FSSP did and what the new-sspx is doing.

    There is never an "extreme necessity" to attend Mass.  Receive the Sacraments, yes.  But attend Mass?  No.  People sometimes confuse the two.  One might say that in an extreme necessity one might receive the Sacraments through the Novus Ordo, but that doesn't equate to making it OK to attend the Mass.  Either the Mass displeases God or it does not.  Period.  Now, even if it displeases God, in extremis it may be permitted to receive Holy Communion consecrated at such a Mass ... if one has no other alternative.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #37 on: September 05, 2019, 10:38:46 AM »
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  • There is never an "extreme necessity" to attend Mass.  Receive the Sacraments, yes.  But attend Mass?  No.  People sometimes confuse the two.  One might say that in an extreme necessity one might receive the Sacraments through the Novus Ordo, but that doesn't equate to making it OK to attend the Mass.  Either the Mass displeases God or it does not.  Period.  Now, even if it displeases God, in extremis it may be permitted to receive Holy Communion consecrated at such a Mass ... if one has no other alternative.

    Archbishop Lefebvre said otherwise, in the quote above.

    He said people would lose the faith (textbook definition of extreme spiritual necessity) if they were forced to go several months or more without Mass.

    Now if people want to disagree with Lefebvre (as Pax is doing), then they are free to do so.

    But let’s not pretend they are adhering to the position of Lefebvre as they contradict him, or being more traditional in unwittingly inventing their own novel positions, and passing them off as “the positions of the pioneer trads of the 1970’s.”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #38 on: September 05, 2019, 10:45:22 AM »
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    There is never an "extreme necessity" to attend Mass.  Receive the Sacraments, yes.  But attend Mass?  No.  People sometimes confuse the two.  One might say that in an extreme necessity one might receive the Sacraments through the Novus Ordo, but that doesn't equate to making it OK to attend the Mass.  Either the Mass displeases God or it does not.  Period.  Now, even if it displeases God, in extremis it may be permitted to receive Holy Communion consecrated at such a Mass ... if one has no other alternative.
    If there's no extreme necessity to attend mass, then how can there be an extreme necessity to receive Holy Communion?  The former is obligated under the 10 Commandments/Church Law about 60 times a year; the latter only 1x a year, and only under Church law.  Seems to me that there isn't a necessity to receive Communion, when safe/moral masses are unavailable.
    .
    Yes, people are obviously confused and the allowance was not explained adequately by either +ABL, nor +W.  And that assumes the allowance is able to explained, which is debatable. 
    .
    Agree, the new mass displeases God for sure.  But there's a whole host of reasons why.  And 3 of the main ones concern validity - that of the priest, of the consecration and of the mass overall.  One would have to have 100% certainty that the priest/consecration were valid before they would even know if the Holy Eucharist is present!  And how can anyone know this?  Most people don't know about these issues, so advising them that they could go to Communion only (but not take part in the mass) is confusing.  They should just keep it simple and avoid it altogether.
    .
    But let's say you knew an old priest who was ordained pre-V2 and he used the most "conservative" canon prayers so you could be sure that the consecration was valid.  If you knew enough to investigate all this, then you'd also know the deficiencies with the new mass, and it's philosophical evils, and its attempt to undermine the True Faith with its protestant liturgy.  Knowing all of this, could you honestly have a guilt-free conscience in attending a fake mass in order to receive Holy Communion?  If the mass is a mockery, then Christ's sacrifice on the cross is mocked.  But one would ignore this in order to "get something" out of the service?  It makes no sense.
    .
    The catholics in England were martyred rather than attend an Anglican mass, one in which the only change (at first) was a philosophical one, that is, the mass was offered without the pope, in honor of King Henry VIII.  Catholics died rather than be part of this schism and blasphemy (and the Anglican communions would've been valid, let's not forget).  Yet it's ok for one to attend the new mass, which is FAR worse than the Anglican heresy, and which has FAR more blasphemies/sacrileges involved?  It makes no sense.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #39 on: September 05, 2019, 10:48:30 AM »
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    and passing them off as “the positions of the pioneer trads of the 1970’s.”

    Total revisionist history.  You act as if +ABL was the god of Tradition.  He wasn't.  There were 100s of clerics, all across the globe, who left new-rome and who stayed with Tradition.  There were plenty who took a hard-line stance on avoiding the novus ordo 100%.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #40 on: September 05, 2019, 11:48:16 AM »
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  • If there's no extreme necessity to attend mass, then how can there be an extreme necessity to receive Holy Communion?  

    In danger of death.  Obligation of law, such as to attend Mass, do not bind if there's no acceptable Catholic Mass to attend.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #41 on: September 05, 2019, 12:07:46 PM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre said otherwise, in the quote above.

    He said people would lose the faith (textbook definition of extreme spiritual necessity) if they were forced to go several months or more without Mass.

    Now if people want to disagree with Lefebvre (as Pax is doing), then they are free to do so.

    At no point did I attribute my opinion to +Lefebvre, so this is a straw man.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #42 on: September 05, 2019, 12:10:39 PM »
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  • +Lefebvre can be quoted as saying half a dozen things on any given issue over the years.  I hate the stupid fight about who's more in line with +Lefebvre.  #1) Which +Lefebvre? and #2) So what?; he wasn't God and didn't necessarily have it right on every issue.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #43 on: September 05, 2019, 12:14:59 PM »
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  • That the exceptional allowance for NOM Mass attendance for those in extreme necessity (per Archbishop Lefebvre, above) is interpreted as compromise does not speak well for the intellectual caliber (or honesty) of those making that argument.

    Nor does the belief that the intrinsic evil of the NOM is moral rather than philosophical/scholastic (which would impute legions of mortal sins to Archbishop Lefebvre for permitting it).

    Right now, the SSPX CI monitors are howling with laughter at the ignorance displayed, and saying to each other, “Johnson even quoted ABL, and they completely ignored and dismissed it in order to maintain their own erroneous positions.”
    So Sean, direct question to you here - what do you call +ABL and the trad priests for condoning others to addend the evil thing, while they themselves would not be caught saying the evil thing? Consistent?

    Certainly you cannot say honestly that it is consistent. Hypocritical you could say. You might even say sympathetic - but right? Never.

    The thing you do not accept, is that when God sees that we compromise by going to the NO, as history proves, He often chooses to leave us with that compromise. When God sees that we refuse to compromise because of dangers and the damage that the NOM has done since it's perpetration, in His own time HE WILL PROVIDE THE TRUE MASS FOR EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO DESIRES IT, provided they do their part which is to wholly reject going to the new jazz because of what it is - a sacrilege against the propitiatory sacrifice of Calvary.

    If you haven't learned that much as a trad, you can now no longer plead ignorance.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Hewko Still A Pfeifferite
    « Reply #44 on: September 05, 2019, 12:15:10 PM »
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    In danger of death.  

    Ok, then maybe Holy Viaticuм is the only exception...provided of course, that you knew the priest and the consecration was valid.
    .

    Quote
    Obligation of law, such as to attend Mass, do not bind if there's no acceptable Catholic Mass to attend.
    Then the same would apply to Holy Communion, if there is no acceptable mass to provide it.
    .
    The whole "going to a novus ordo to receive communion but not participating in the mass" has an emotional slant to it.  The idea of the question presupposes that regular Holy Communion is a necessity to save your soul.  I've heard people say such things like "I NEED to go to communion."  Ok, that's certainly a virtuous attitude, but I would also ask the question, "Is that a 100% spiritual need, or do you also have some emotional/psychological neurosis at play?"  I mean, we all need to pray and we are required to do so, but praying due to an obsessive compulsive fear of hell is not good.  
    .
    I've also heard people say they NEED to go to confession every week, or even twice a week (and they did not have serious sin involved).  These were all women, mind you, but the point is, their NEED was not 100% spiritual, but also psychological.  In the same way, most of the people who say the NEED to go to the new mass JUST for communion are also women.  Instead of indulging their incorrect theology and psychological whims, we should be instructing them on how to grow spiritually.  All needs, even spiritual ones, are not to be met.