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Author Topic: FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)  (Read 8460 times)

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Offline chrstnoel1

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FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
« on: August 02, 2013, 04:28:07 AM »
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  • Contra Cekadam by Fr. Francois Chazal - Print version (book)
    https://www.chantcd.com/index.php/Contra-Cekadam

    AVAILABLE NOW - $10 plus shipping.



    MILES CHRISTI (Soldier of Christ)


    SEDEVACANTISM

     
    The classic attitude of Traditional Catholics sliding back towards the Novus Ordo church is to clamour that they are not Sedevacantists, to justify their liberals slide; and to accuse those who resist the slide to be Sedevacantists.

    • One of the main arguments of Bishop Fellay to justify the text of the April 15th 2012 DECLARATION is his desire to be “above the Sedevacantist temptation (which we tried to rule out in this Doctrinal Declaration)” (Cor Unum 104, March 2013, Pg 38).

    • Then comes the punch line (sermon of Fr. Couture, published in the weekly bulletin of OLVC, Vol XII, No. 17, Pg 4)

    And now we have the group calling themselves the ‘resistance’, those who have been expelled from the Society of St Pius X recently. They also offer the traditional mass, but now they are openly saying that people should not go to the Society of St Pius X masses, under the pretext that the Society of St Pius X would have become modernist and liberal, just like the Novus Ordo Catholics. I let you judge for yourselves the truthfulness of this accusation. One serious danger of these priests is that they are so vocal about the problems in the Church and with the present popes, they so easily use all kinds of names, that, if they themselves refuse the accusation of being sedevacantists, they lead their faithful to it. When you hear all the time that the pope is a bad pope, it is easy to eventually think, “But then, how can he be a true pope”, and, from there to conclude that he cannot be pope, is only a step away. One of their families has already become sedevacantist and now this family even reject them.


    This accusation was repeated again in India (and possibly other places) and reminds me of the first threat I received last year “if you postpone an agreement with Rome, you will end up being a Sedevacantist.”

    Note well: To criticize often pope Francis is just one step away from the abyss!

    Poor Archbishop Lefebvre, who said bad things about new Popes so many times!

    • Other priests accused us of being schismatic, using the ignorance of simple villagers both in Dagohoy and in Hindang, the Philippines.

    So what do we say?

    We cannot claim to be faithful to the Doctrinal position of our founder if we support sedevacantists. The reasons that motivated his choice then have not change. Sedevacantism is a Pandora’s Box, just like liberalism. It gives a simple and logical solution to the crisis in the Church, but opens a flurry of questions impossible to answer without falling into confusion, absurdity or division (who is the Pope then? If there is no Pope at all, how will the Pope return? Why is Our Lady talking about Popes, good or bad? How can a material Pope be made a real Pope again? Where is the hidden Pope Gregory XVIII/Benedict XVII? What happened to the real supposedly good Pope Paul VI? Who is right between the Dolomites and Sanbornites? Why did error in the faith not “unPope” previous Popes? How is the Papacy going to restart without valid Cardinals?)

    For all these questions and plenty more, like minimal visibility of the Catholic Church, the Archbishop left the reality of a Pope with no faith, (believing that all religious are true and good, like the Freemasons), to its own state : a mystery.

    That mystery will be solved later, at the end of the crisis.

    Our duty is simple: To remain Catholic. The rest is beyond the capability of priests, and beyond the capability of faithful who do not have even the time to find out who is right between Cajetan and Bellarmine……..

    Most Popes and Theologians don’t consider the possibility of Rome losing the faith, even after La Salette (“Rome will lose the Faith….”) The conclusions of those fewer who do consider that possibility, do differ, and for those who conclude that in case the Pope would not be Pope, they do not tell us how he would be deposed or how Catholics would be officially notified that he is not Pope?

    Sedevacantists then are obliged to twist what theologians say to make a seemingly erudite and impressive list of Theologians agreeing with them, precisely when it is not the case (Cajetan) or when that author gives his opinion under the note of probability (Tanduerey).

    They also argue that their thesis is most obvious and necessary. Why then did it take them so long and so many complex reasoning’s to come to it : the ‘Thesis of Cassissiacvoi” came 20 years after the accession of John XXIII, an invalid Pope according to them. For 20 years, the Catholic Church had no Pope and nobody knew about it, except a few clowns in Spain!

    Therefore, my dear friends, don’t believe those who try to scare you; as the liberals within the XSPX go leftwards, they even claim that I made the poor ‘Ng family’ in Malaysia, sedevancatists. I never really talked to them until July 2012, and by then they had lost trust in the XSPX because of the liberalism of some priests on the issue of doctrine, family planning, modesty etc, that led to a distrust of the position of the Archbishop. But this I confess, that I was not able to prevent them to sink further and become ‘House church’, being too clumsy or coming too late.


    The Five Miracles of the Catholic Church
    (According to Bishop Richard Williamson)

    • A CLEAN FRANCISCAN
    • A STRAIGHT DOMINICAN
    • A HUMBLE JESUIT
    • A POOR BENEDICTIN
    • A SOCIETY PRIEST WITH COMMON SENSE


    Francois Chazal+
    SSPX MARIAN CORP

    JUNE 2013
    ______________________________________________________________[/b]


    Noel Christie Danker
    "It is impious to say, 'I respect every religion.' This is as much as to say: I respect the devil as much as God, vice as much as virtue, falsehood as much as truth, dishonesty as much as honesty, Hell as much as Heaven."
    Fr. Michael Muller, The Church and Her Enemies


    Offline Francisco

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #1 on: August 02, 2013, 05:08:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: chrstnoel1

    ......Therefore, my dear friends, don’t believe those who try to scare you; as the liberals within the XSPX go leftwards, they even claim that I made the poor ‘Ng family’ in Malaysia, sedevancatists. I never really talked to them until July 2012, and by then they had lost trust in the XSPX because of the liberalism of some priests on the issue of doctrine, family planning, modesty etc, that led to a distrust of the position of the Archbishop. But this I confess, that I was not able to prevent them to sink further and become ‘House church’, being too clumsy or coming too late......
    Noel Christie Danker



    Hi Noel! Just out of curiosity, has the "poor 'Ng family' in Malaysia" turned to Fr Joven Soliman in Manila for help?


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 05:16:31 AM »
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  • .

    Is this a transcription of a sermon, or is it something that
    Fr. Chazal wrote out and you are copying?  

    It doesn't appear to be the words of Fr. Chazal, but someone's
    notes on a sermon or something like that.  

    It ends with:

    Francois Chazal+
    SSPX MARIAN CORP


    There is no way in hell Fr. Chazal would EVER write that.  It means
    "SSPX Marian Corporation."  (There are numerous other problems
    with the spelling and grammar.)  He is trying to PROMOTE the use of
    "Marian Corps" for the Resistance priests, not make a joke of it.


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    Offline Telesphorus

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 05:25:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: Father Couture
    When you hear all the time that the pope is a bad pope . . .


    So the SSPX no longer believes this?  Or simply things that people should be lulled into forgetfulness and gradually approving and accepting that these have been indifferent or even good popes? (which seems to be actually happening)

    As Father Chazal says, how could a sane and honest person square that with the things the Archbishop said?

    Masonic Rome:

    http://gloria.tv/?media=142663

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 05:42:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Father Couture
    When you hear all the time that the pope is a bad pope . . .


    So the SSPX no longer believes this?  Or simply things that people should be lulled into forgetfulness and gradually approving and accepting that these have been indifferent or even good popes? (which seems to be actually happening)

    As Father Chazal says, how could a sane and honest person square that with the things the Archbishop said?

    Masonic Rome:

    http://gloria.tv/?media=142663



    http://gloria.tv/?media=142663


    ...Well, I got the title anyway:  "Mgr Lefebvre - La Rome maçonnique"


    Manager Lefebvre - the Rome Freemasonic.



    Context (I had no idea what you were referring to, Tele, until I went to
    hunt down the context that you were excerpting from in you abbreviated
    reference):

    Quote
    When you hear all the time that the pope is a bad pope, it is easy to eventually think, “But then, how can he be a true pope”, and, from there to conclude that he cannot be pope, is only a step away. One of their families has already become sedevacantist and now this family even reject them.


    This accusation was repeated again in India (and possibly other places) and reminds me of the first threat I received last year “if you postpone an agreement with Rome, you will end up being a Sedevacantist.”

    Note well: To criticize often pope Francis is just one step away from the abyss!

    Poor Archbishop Lefebvre, who said bad things about new Popes so many times!


    (Apparently, the red portion is a quasi-quote and the black portion is
    a quasi-commentary.  It is not clear who the author is, or if this is a
    speech of Fr. Chazal, how he was presenting the material - some of
    it is parody, some commentary, some satire, and some criticism.  

    One has to be very familiar with the whole story to have any grasp
    of the multiple subtleties here.  I pity newcomers, because it would
    at first appear to be nonsense.



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    Offline Telesphorus

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 05:58:24 AM »
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  • Another one:

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/embed/raHuppuqG_k[/youtube]

    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    These visions of those who say that the Holy Father is a prisoner, that the Holy Father is somehow incapable, that he's drugged, for the thirteen years that he's been there he has no responsibility for anything.  They've locked this man up and then eventually we get to the point where there's another Pope who is imprisoned under the Vatican, then they've given him a double and other things like this that are just crazy [ aberrantes ], crazy, crazy, no?  Idiotic, completely idiotic, aren't they, and all of this is very smart on the part of the devil because this sways a certain amount of people, right, who are always saying:  The Pope!  The Pope!  The Pope!  No, no, no, don't speak to me about the Pope!  Be obedient!  Be obedient!  I beg you, I beg you, it's his entourage, it's not him.

    But I will say you can also look at the problem from another angle and say:  good, ultimately I agree with you, it's not possible that the Pope who is protected by the Holy Ghost, by the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, could do things like this.  There we agree, it's not possible, it doesn't fit, this destruction of the Church, this destruction of the Social Reign of Christ the King, this destruction of the Catholic faith in every aspect, every catechism, every university, every religious order, the seminaries, everywhere you look it is the systematic destruction of the Church, which was aimed at by all of these reforms that the Vatican implemented, because Vatican II wasn't, I'd say, what allowed these reforms to be put into effect, what had to be done was to implement the reforms of Vatican II in an equivocal way, this allowed them to start putting the reforms into practice and this was the goal, it [ Vatican II I believe ] was the springboard that permitted all this, so it can be said that the Holy Father, in effect, that it's not possible that a Pope could do all this, therefore he's not Pope.

    This reasoning is worth, this reasoning, I don't know, I don't say that's what's going on and there are several scenarios, maybe this one has some merit, we'll know the truth later maybe, I don't know, I don't know.  The way I see it, it's not clear yet, you understand, but one day if it came to light that it was true, and this is something that is far from impossible, here also, there are apparitions that say the same thing and these apparitions have been recognized by the See of Peter, Fatima, La Salette, that say that the devil will climb to the highest places in the Church, I don't know if by the "highest place in the Church" that means Secretary of State, and then stops there, or if it goes even farther, if it goes all the way to the Pope.  I don't know maybe even to someone who says he's the Pope, I don't know, but you know this is something that isn't impossible and theologians have studied this problem, the theologians have studied this problem to see if it's something that can happen, if a Pope can perhaps be a heretic and as a result excommunicated from the Church and therefore all his acts become illegitimate and invalid.  And if, just as a hypothesis, once again I just don't know,  don't put words in my mouth, I don't know, but if at last it comes  out that quietly that there are certain connections to Masonry, imagine that the Pope was registered in a Masonic lodge before his election, he would be excommunicated.  Excommunicated...  His election is invalid, he can't be Pope and we would have had for all this time...  A Pope who wasn't Pope.  This is possible.  Once again I don't say this is what is really happening but what do you want in a situation like this, we're looking for a solution.  We find ourselves with a problem that has almost no theological solution, theologically, I say theologically almost impossible to solve, so we search for a solution, fine!  A solution that he is a prisoner, drugged, this is possible.  I admit that when you see him move around and talk, personally I haven't seen him for two years, I haven't seen him in the flesh, I mean privately but with a public audience, I saw him put aside his paper and his script, speaking with a skill, a fluidity, getting to the point, with intelligence but in full possession of his faculties, in full possession of his faculties, not a man who had been drugged, or who has been given a shot or who... Not at all!  The farthest thing from it!

    Well then, when he blessed the Pentecostals, was there a revolver pointed at his head?  When he kissed the feet of the Orthodox [ priest?  I don't remember this occasion ]... No, this is absurd, it's not possible.  Besides Mgr. Benelli said to me three weeks ago, when I saw him, Mgr. Benelli said to me:  'It's the Pope who wrote you those letters, you don't want to believe it but it's the Pope who wrote them to you, he is fully up to date, he is up to date about everything, he knows very well what he's doing and he's the one who wants all this happen and he makes the decisions and when I leave, when this conversation we're having is over and I leave, I am going to see the Pope every day, and I am immediately going to tell him what was said in this conversation.'



    Offline chrstnoel1

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #6 on: August 02, 2013, 06:02:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .

    Is this a transcription of a sermon, or is it something that
    Fr. Chazal wrote out and you are copying?  

    It doesn't appear to be the words of Fr. Chazal, but someone's
    notes on a sermon or something like that.  

    It ends with:

    Francois Chazal+
    SSPX MARIAN CORP


    There is no way in hell Fr. Chazal would EVER write that.  It means
    "SSPX Marian Corporation."  (There are numerous other problems
    with the spelling and grammar.)  He is trying to PROMOTE the use of
    "Marian Corps" for the Resistance priests, not make a joke of it.




    Hi Neil,

    Yes, every word was written by Fr. Chazal and I typed it. This is Fr. Chazal's bulletin for the Asian district. It includes Mass schedules, contact information and SSPX MC priests movement within Asia.

    I would like to post it as it is, but unfortunately, it is not a pleasant sight. I could however forward you a scanned copy of it if you prefer. PM me?

    As for SSPX MARIAN CORP? Sorry, typo error. Mea culpa! SSPX MARIAN CORPS
    "It is impious to say, 'I respect every religion.' This is as much as to say: I respect the devil as much as God, vice as much as virtue, falsehood as much as truth, dishonesty as much as honesty, Hell as much as Heaven."
    Fr. Michael Muller, The Church and Her Enemies

    Offline chrstnoel1

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 06:04:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Francisco
    Quote from: chrstnoel1

    ......Therefore, my dear friends, don’t believe those who try to scare you; as the liberals within the XSPX go leftwards, they even claim that I made the poor ‘Ng family’ in Malaysia, sedevancatists. I never really talked to them until July 2012, and by then they had lost trust in the XSPX because of the liberalism of some priests on the issue of doctrine, family planning, modesty etc, that led to a distrust of the position of the Archbishop. But this I confess, that I was not able to prevent them to sink further and become ‘House church’, being too clumsy or coming too late......
    Noel Christie Danker



    Hi Noel! Just out of curiosity, has the "poor 'Ng family' in Malaysia" turned to Fr Joven Soliman in Manila for help?


    No one knows :scratchchin:
    "It is impious to say, 'I respect every religion.' This is as much as to say: I respect the devil as much as God, vice as much as virtue, falsehood as much as truth, dishonesty as much as honesty, Hell as much as Heaven."
    Fr. Michael Muller, The Church and Her Enemies


    Offline eddiearent

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #8 on: August 02, 2013, 11:13:19 AM »
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  • Well, the whole issue with Fr. Chazal's position is that Father (and the entire SSPX and SSPX-SO) say there's a pope but act as if there isn't one. They have built altars without the explicit approval of the one who claims to be the Roman Pontiff and those in communion with him. So, he's like a paper pope --- there is no actual submission to him. Is it not Catholic dogma that in order for salvation one must be subject to the Roman Pontiff? In actuality, there can be a picture of Bergoglio in the vestibule or sacristy and mention his name in benediction, but there is no real authority he has. Everyone for the most part, especially those in Menzingen or in Kansas City has become the authority on what to follow when it comes to doctrine, dogmas, and liturgical disciplines that the Novus Ordo sect has created and there is no respect for authority. People actually believe that the Catholic Church can give a rite that is harmful or impious to the faithful now. This is condemned in Church teachings.  

    The position of being "una cuм" in the Mass with Bergoglio and then having a hissy fit with Bishop Fellay and others in the SSPX when it comes to doctrinal discussions is also contradictory. If you're Una cuм Bergoglio in the Mass, why not always?

    Yes, we can point to Archbishop Lefebvre saying many things contra sedevanctism and actions as well. But we can also point to many things he did and said positive toward this position. That's the nature of the crisis we find ourselves in. Those who are all disgusted about sedevacantism in the SSPX need to realize we can have three books full of the Archbishop's thoughts that present him as an SSPX-SO supporter, a Bishop Fellay supporter, and a short book as a sedevacantist. Why has it become the word "Sedevacantist" has become even worst than say taking our Lord's name in vein? People are brain washed.

    An article if you wish to read;
    http://truerestoration.blogspot.com/2012/05/sedevacantism-not-required-for.html

    Offline For Greater Glory

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 01:51:32 PM »
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  • Neil, Somebody help me out with this. I believe both sides make valid points, that's why it's so confusing. But if you admit that these popes have been popes, you must admit that they have done, written and said heresy or else you better fly off to India and get annointed with cow dung into a pagan religion!!!   To me, these popes might be sitting on the chair, but when the Church is right they'll probably be exhumed and condemned like the other pope. (I forgot his name.)
    I've never understood why the SSPX was not stronger on this, but I think I know now!!!

    Offline Raphaela

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #10 on: August 07, 2013, 03:41:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: eddiearent
    Well, the whole issue with Fr. Chazal's position is that Father (and the entire SSPX and SSPX-SO) say there's a pope but act as if there isn't one. They have built altars without the explicit approval of the one who claims to be the Roman Pontiff and those in communion with him. So, he's like a paper pope --- there is no actual submission to him. Is it not Catholic dogma that in order for salvation one must be subject to the Roman Pontiff? In actuality, there can be a picture of Bergoglio in the vestibule or sacristy and mention his name in benediction, but there is no real authority he has. Everyone for the most part, especially those in Menzingen or in Kansas City has become the authority on what to follow when it comes to doctrine, dogmas, and liturgical disciplines that the Novus Ordo sect has created and there is no respect for authority. People actually believe that the Catholic Church can give a rite that is harmful or impious to the faithful now. This is condemned in Church teachings.  

    The position of being "una cuм" in the Mass with Bergoglio and then having a hissy fit with Bishop Fellay and others in the SSPX when it comes to doctrinal discussions is also contradictory. If you're Una cuм Bergoglio in the Mass, why not always?

    Yes, we can point to Archbishop Lefebvre saying many things contra sedevanctism and actions as well. But we can also point to many things he did and said positive toward this position. That's the nature of the crisis we find ourselves in. Those who are all disgusted about sedevacantism in the SSPX need to realize we can have three books full of the Archbishop's thoughts that present him as an SSPX-SO supporter, a Bishop Fellay supporter, and a short book as a sedevacantist. Why has it become the word "Sedevacantist" has become even worst than say taking our Lord's name in vein? People are brain washed.


    The "Recognise and Resist" position has been defined and supported by many Popes, saints and theologians, for example, St. Robert Bellarmine:
    Quote
    The Doctor of the Church, St. Robert Bellarmine, S.J. († 1621), wrote a treatise on the Papacy which was used as a basis for the definition of the limits of papal infallibility which was made at Vatican I. He wrote as follows:

     "Just as it is lawful to resist the pope that attacks the body, it is also lawful to resist the one who attacks souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is lawful to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed." (De Romano Pontifice, Lib. II, Ch. 29)


    This is from the collection of quotes here:

    http://www.romancatholicism.org/duty-resist.htm



    Offline Telesphorus

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #11 on: August 07, 2013, 03:44:44 PM »
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  • Dear Raphaela, FYI that site is an anti-Catholic site.  

    Offline justso

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    « Reply #12 on: August 07, 2013, 04:52:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raphaela
    The "Recognise and Resist" position has been defined and supported by many Popes, saints and theologians, for example, St. Robert Bellarmine:
    Quote
    The Doctor of the Church, St. Robert Bellarmine, S.J. († 1621), wrote a treatise on the Papacy which was used as a basis for the definition of the limits of papal infallibility which was made at Vatican I. He wrote as follows:

     "Just as it is lawful to resist the pope that attacks the body, it is also lawful to resist the one who attacks souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is lawful to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed." (De Romano Pontifice, Lib. II, Ch. 29)




    The Bellarmine 'Resistance' Quote: Another Traditionalist Myth[/u]
    Rev Anthony Cekada

    Since the 1970s, countless traditionalist writers who have rejected the Vatican II teachings and the New Mass but who oppose sedevacantism have justified their own position by mindlessly recycling the following quote from St. Robert Bellarmine:

          “Just as it is licit to resist a Pontiff who attacks the body, so also is it licit to resist him who attacks souls or destroys the civil order or above all, tries to de­stroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and by impeding the exe­cution of his will. It is not licit, however, to judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior.” (De Romano Pontifice,  II.29.)

          This passage, we have repeatedly been told, supports the notion that the traditionalist movement can “resist” the false doctrines, evil laws and sacrilegious worship that Paul VI and his successors promulgated, but still continue to “recognize” them as true Vicars of Christ. (This strange idea is also attributed to other theologians such as Cajetan.)

          The same passage in Bellarmine — we have also been told — shoots down the principle behind sedevacantism (that a heretical pope automatically loses his office) because sedevacantists “judge” and “depose” the pope.

          These conclusions, it turns out, are simply another example of how low intellectual standards in traditionalist polemics give birth to myths that quickly take on the aura of near-revealed truths.

          Anyone who actually consults the original sources and who understands a few fundamental distinctions in canon law comes up with a completely different set of conclusions about what the famous “resistance” passage really means, to wit:

          (1) Bellarmine is talking about a morally evil pope who gives morally evil commands — not one who, like the post-Vatican II popes, teaches doctrinal error or imposes evil laws.

          (2) The context of the statement is a debate over the errors of Gallicanism, not the case of a heretical pope.

          (3) Bellarmine is justifying “resistance” by kings and prelates, not by individual Catholics.

          (4) Bellarmine teaches in the next chapter of his work (30) that a heretical pope automatically loses his authority.

          In a word, the passage can neither be applied to the present crisis nor invoked against sedevacantism.

          A brief comment on each of these four points is in order.

     

    1. Evil Commands, not Laws. Traditionalists do indeed “resist” the false doctrines (e.g., on ecuмenism) and evil laws (e.g. the New Mass) promulgated by the post-Conciliar popes.

          But in the famous quote Bellarmine addresses another case entirely: he has been asked about a pope who unjustly attacks someone, disturbs the public order, or “tries to kill souls by his bad example.” (animas malo suo exemplo nitatur occidere.) In his reply he says “it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders.” (…licet, inquam, ei resistere, non faciendo quod jubet.)

          This language describes a pope who gives bad example or evil commands, rather than — as would be the case with Paul VI or his successors — a pope who teaches doctrinal error or imposes evil laws. This is clear from chapter 27 of Cardinal Cajetan’s De Comparatione Auctoritatis Papae et Concilii, which Bellarmine then immediately cites to support his position.

          First, in his title for chapter 27 Cajetan says he is going to discuss a type of papal offense “other than heresy.” (ex alio crimine quam haeresis.) Heresy, he says, completely alters a pope’s status as a Christian (mutavit christianitatis statum). It is the “greater crime” (majus crimen). The others are “lesser crimes” (criminibus minoribus) that are “not equal to it” (cetera non sunt paria, [ed. Rome: Angelicuм 1936] 409).

          Neither Bellarmine nor Cajetan, therefore, are referring to “resisting” a pope’s doctrinal errors while continuing still to consider him a true pope.

          Second, throughout De Comparatione, Cajetan provides specific examples of the papal misdeeds that do justify this resistance on the part of subjects: “promoting the wicked, oppressing the good, behaving as a tyrant, encouraging vices, blasphemies, avarices, etc.” (356),  “if he oppresses the Church, if he slays souls [by bad example]” (357), “dissipating [the Church’s] goods” (359), “if he manifestly acts against the common good of charity towards the Church Militant” (360), tyranny, oppression, unjust aggression (411), “publicly destroying the Church,” selling ecclesiastical benefices, and bartering offices (412).

          All these involve evil commands (praecepta) — but evil commands are not the same as evil laws (leges). A command is particular and transitory; law is general and is stable. (For an explanation, see R. Naz, “Précepte,” Dictionnaire de Droit Canonique, [Paris: Letouzey 1935-65] 7:116–17.)

          Bellarmine and Cajetan’s argument justifies only resisting a pope’s evil commands (to sell the pastorate of a parish to the highest bidder, say). It does not support the notion that a pope, while still retaining authority from Jesus Christ, can (for example) impose a sacrilegious, protestantized Mass on the whole Church, whose members can then “resist” him, while continuing to recognize him as a true pope.



    2. Anti-Gallicanism. Traditionalist writers have further distorted the passage because they quote it out of context.

          It appears in Bellarmine’s discussion of an issue completely unrelated to any faced by present-day traditionalists: the Protestant and Gallican arguments that the Church or the pope should be subject to a king or a general council. The passage comprises merely one sentence in a chapter that covers two-and-a half, two-column quarto pages of fine print devoted to this topic. (See De Controversiis [Naples: Giuliano 1854] 1:413-18).

          Specifically the passage is taken from Bellarmine’s reply to the following argument:

          “Argument 7. Any person is permitted to kill the pope if he is unjustly at­tacked by him. Therefore, even more so is it permitted for kings or a council to depose the pope if he disturbs the state, or if he tries to kill souls by his bad example.” (op. cit. 1:417)

          This was the position of the Gallicans, who placed the authority of a general council above that of a pope.

          It is absurd to claim that one sentence in Bellarmine’s reply to this argument somehow justifies across-the-board “resistance” to the post-Vatican II errors.

          The absurdity becomes all the more evident when you notice that immediately after this one sentence Bellarmine cites Cajetan’s De Comparatione — all 184 octavo pages of which were written to refute the errors of Gallicanism and Conciliarism.

     

    3. Not Individual “Resistance.” In context, furthermore, the quote from Bellarmine does not justify “resistance” to popes by individuals — as some traditionalists seem to think — but resistance by kings or general councils

          The Gallican position that Bellarmine refuted maintained that it is permitted “for kings or a council” (licebit regibus vel concilio) to depose a pope. Nothing about individual priests or laymen there.

          Once again this meaning is clear from Cajetan’s chapter 27. “Secular princes and the prelates of the Church [principes mundi et praelati Ecclesiae],” he says,  have many ways available for arranging “resistance or an obstruction to an abuse of power [resistentiam, impedimentumque abusus potestatis].” (412).

          It is therefore impossible to maintain that Bellarmine and Cajetan were addressing the issue of an individual Catholic resisting the pope.

     

    4. Bellarmine and a Heretical Pope. And finally, in the chapter that follows the famous quote (30), Bellarmine explicitly treats the question: “Whether a heretical pope can be deposed.” (An papa haereticus deponi possit.)

          Bellarmine refutes answers given by various theologians, including Cajetan, who maintained that a heretical pope would need to be deposed. He bases his own answer on the following principle:

          “Heretics are outside the Church even before their excommunication, and, deprived of all jurisdiction, are condemned by their own judgment, as St. Paul teaches in Titus 3.” (op.cit. 1:419)

          The saint concludes:

          “The fifth opinion therefore is the true one. A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automat­i­cally to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fa­thers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction.”

          Bellarmine’s writings, then, support rather than refute the principle behind the sedevacantist position: a heretical pope is self-deposing.

    * * * * *

    To sum up: The notion that the famous Bellarmine passage justifies “resistance” to a true pope and simultaneously “refutes sedevacantism” is based on ignorance of both the meaning of the text and its context. It is time for traditionalists to stop promoting such foolish myths.

          A true pope does not teach doctrinal error for decades or promulgate a sacrilegious Mass — there is no need to resist him.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #13 on: August 07, 2013, 07:54:28 PM »
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    This is not to say that I agree with the statement, above, that
    any pope who teaches heresy thereby loses all authority.  That
    is to say, maybe that's right, and contrariwise, maybe it's missing
    something, but I not here saying one way or the other, okay?

    What I'd like to point out is, that any pope who latae sententiae
    loses all authority (whether or not that means he is no longer
    pope might be a separate question), cannot be judged by any
    other person on earth.  The pope is the highest juridical authority,
    and, as such, he cannot be deposed by someone else who isn't pope.  

    However, he could be deposed by a future pope, or, failing that,
    he could be somehow deposed by the agreement of all the
    bishops of the world.  

    We don't usually have all the bishops of the world getting together
    on any one question like that, and we certainly have never had all
    the bishops getting together to depose the standing pope (as far
    as I know - correct me if I'm wrong).

    That's what œcuмenical councils are for.  



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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    FR. FRANCOIS CHAZAL, SSPX MC - SEDEVACANTISM (JUNE 2013)
    « Reply #14 on: August 07, 2013, 08:01:38 PM »
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    Post
    Quote from: For Greater Glory

    Neil, Somebody help me out with this.
    I believe both sides make valid points, that's why it's so confusing.
    But if you admit that these popes have been popes, you must admit that they have done, written and said heresy or else you better fly off to India and get anointed with cow dung into a pagan religion!!!  

    To me, these popes might be sitting on the chair, but when the Church is right they'll probably be exhumed and condemned like the other pope. (I forgot his name.)

    I've never understood why the SSPX was not stronger on this, but I think I know now!!!



    If I may be of some help, it seems to me that the problem here
    is subjectivism. We've got various 'experts' claiming contradictory
    things and they're all right in each others' estimations because it's
    all subjective.  What it really comes down to, though, is relative
    morality and even relative truth.  How many times have you
    heard scientists or mathematicians claim that "Truth is relative,"
    even though they're not qualified to make any pronouncements
    in the field of philosophy?


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