Host: We are called the mar core of s pis. We remain until our last breath the the children the sons of senpai. Well, thank you everybody for tuning in to this special episode of Church and State where I am joined by Father France Shazal for the Marian Court of St. Pius the 10th commonly referred to as the SSPX resistance or at least part of the worldwide resistance.
Father Chazal: >> It's not SSPX resistance is not our name. It's plastered upon us. But uh I am just a little cog within the resistance. I'm we are just a small uh small group of eight priests then the ninth is is arriving next June is a Korean father Andrew Kim but um I am not the Sspx resistance me the 10th and then there's a wider movement of the called the resistance uh which uh follows the position of our with respect to the consular church
and that's um or They call them, some say it's called fidelity, Catholic fidelity, some call it the resistance. I like the resistance because it's more dimminitive. >> It has it's we are not that great, you know. It's um >> we just try to to continue being Catholics, >> but thank you for having me today. Thank you.


Host: >> Yes. Wonderful. And I wanted to have you because well you were at once upon a time part of the uh SSPX and now of course you are in >> uh I believe the Philippines station but you travel as well all over Asia. Is that correct?

Father Chazal: >> Yes. Yes. I'm in Korea right now and then uh I'll be going to Malaysia and Vietnam before going back to to the seminary. Yeah. >> Wonderful. things to do.
Host: >> Well, there's a lot to talk about, father. Uh especially coming out of the SSPX, and that of course involves the new announcement that on July 1st, the SSPX is planning to have uh future consecrations here. Uh Bishop Father Paglani made this announcement just recently in France. >> Uh first of all, when did you hear about this announcement and what was your initial reaction?
Father Chazal: Well, I just heard it like everybody else just yesterday or 48 hours ago. >> My first reaction, good for them. Good for them. Let them uh let them uh let them survive and uh provide for themselves in this crisis of the church. So I I I wish them the best and uh I I wish they can save themselves. So that's my first reaction.
And I think we must not wish them any evil and then if they can uh if they can provide for themselves and um and if in the process they can extract themselves from the union that they have contracted with the uh consular church uh those canonical bridges that they've made >> um that father describes as a bridges with the official church. If those bridges can be severed, uh we'll be very happy because uh it would be uh they will be forced to return to a position which was theirs uh in the time of who died telling them that you must wait for the conversion of Rome before you collaborate with a new Rome because we have nothing to do with the new Rome.
this this new Rome comes from heresy and leads to heresy and so staying near these people always uh uh entails uh grave danger for the uh Catholic faith.
Host: >> Yeah, I'm reminded here of Dbishop's um statement here two years after the consecrations and I'll scroll down to I think the some of the key parts in here where he says we must never waver for one moment. Some people are always admiring the grass on our neighbors fields. But instead of looking at them, he says they are shaking hands with the church's destroyers. They are shaking hands with people holding modernist and liberal ideas. So those are two statements that you know the first year and second year after consecrations that many people seem to don't be aware of that he his most mature thought it seems is that you know stay away from from the Vatican.
Father Chazal: >> Yes, we're not asking them to come to their knees and apologize to us. We don't care about that >> and or or anything. And now if if that could uh lead them back to where they were uh and and and make them wiser um that that would be good because they represent quite a lot of Catholic families and a lot of priests but they many of their priests are liberals now and many of their priests um I'm not sure if they're going to jump into this and then so they may have to face some internal difficulties in the process.
process but I think the the gesture of Don David is 25% >> of the journey to to actually getting those bishops consecrated um because he he has given a date uh which is uh five months away more or less four months and 28 days or something and uh but there are three other steps that he needs to uh to overcome. So he needs to appoint good bishops who are not pliant uh like bishop fell was uh with respect to the consular church uh who will who will stick to the doctrinal line and I don't know if that's possible now with a new sspx their their April 15th declaration was never rescended and then um a good number of priests within the SSPX says Vatican 2 is not that bad can be understood in the light of tradition >> which is a very dangerous expression. It was a mistake to use it in the first place and it's an expression that comes from the decree sakosum which uh orchestrated the new liturgy and then they always they said you know when they uh laid the foundations of the new mass they said it will be all done in the in the light of tradition.

Host: >> Yes.
Father Chazal: So that's um so Vatican 2 cannot be uh accepted in the light of tradition. It's not possible. But many of their priests think that way. So the so first step is what kind of bishops are they going to consecrate. Then I think the second uh thing is that Don David says he will go to Rome and have his Kabuki theater in in the Vatican and they are the experts in the Vatican. So they will um you know red carpet him into submission and so if he can survive that uh that ordeal he could skip it you know and just consecrate but he wants to go there and that's very much at his own risks and then the third step is he's not a bishop you see in the time of they were two in one >> and was a master of his own movements whereas Don Don Paglarini is only a priest and then uh and we need to hear uh whether uh Bishop Galata and Bishop Fil are in the same wagon as Don David you know and it's uh as far as Bishop Fle it's it's quite worrisome you know some rumors on Kinfo I don't know if it's true or not say that Bishop Phil is even a judge in a Roman ro in the Vatican itself canonically speaking the SSPX is deeply immersed into the consular church >> very deeply.
So even for their criminal affairs they and for the regular marriage affairs and then uh we were shocked recently one of the experts canal expert of the SSPX for the district of France proposed a marriage analment to a to a to a woman who was in the wrong you know who wanted to destroy our family and and that really got us uh really worried that it's it's really a large compromise at at the canonical all. >> So it will be quite uh quite hard, you know. Um so um but I I wish they can they can do it and so that they may not find themselves without uh traditional bishops you know because Bishop Schneider is still a bitual >> and aside from uh from the bishop of the resistance um there is only bitual bishops you know cars s and then the others they are not really traditional they don't understand the difference between the two masses, you know, and they cannot reject the the errors of Vatican 2.
Host: So, >> so let's talk about about how this came about because there were uh news reports that I read from the Catholic Herald that said that the SSPX and the Vatican were in talks for about the last year or so, not only under uh Leo, but even under uh Francis before him. and that this is essentially the Vatican's way to sort of preempt it because they said, you know, that uh we were not having a response to our legitimate concerns. And so they're sort of like putting a gun to the Vatican's head. How do you think the Vatican is going to actually respond to that tactic? It's kind of a pressure move here.
Father Chazal: >> Well, the their first answer is uh very snide. You know, they say uh uh we are in touch with them and then uh we don't want them to do any unilateral move. So it's they are not threatening they are not the Vatican itself but uh some some others like bishops and and the media outlets are agitating the the schism the the schism red flag you know so there the pressure is um is very mild as far as the Vatican I think the the Vatican are probably studying what they are going to do about this issue So as of now, but um pro perhaps nothing will happen. It's possible that uh nothing happens. If uh depending on the the type of bishops that they get consecrated or perhaps nothing may happen.
Host: >> Yeah. Yeah. There was there was uh well the sermon of father Paglani came out and he said I would like to meet with the holy father before July. So it does seem this is a move to sort of bring them to the table and say look you have not been treating us fairly. We we need an answer here. >> What do you suspect will happen then? I mean do you have any um thoughts on how this may play out. Will there be explications?
Father Chazal: >> I'm not a prophet but um they are very good at Rome. I mean they they are they are uh they they will try to delay certainly and then play with a with a clock. uh say the move is is too precipitated and and so forth when in fact the consecration of the new bishop of the SSPX is late. You know the the they are many more than us and then they need the bishop a lot more than than we do. Um even if the uh the construction of Bishop Williamson were very timely because he he passed away. So he has done his duty as a Catholic bishop and then um and then and then we have a future thanks to him whereas the the situation in the SSPX now is dangerous because uh I don't know what's under the hood of these two cars you know Phill and and Gallera I I I really don't know
Host: >> I mean I did read that in the press release that it was a unanimous support from the advisers so that would presumably referring to Schmidberger Filet uh first assistant dear and second assistant Bua court. So I presume those five were all in the same with that. But >> uh >> well him then. Yes. >> Yeah. What do you um because here here's the other thing that I've been thinking about lately. This is a statement by the SSPX when they issued I think the last time they ever made a statement about Bishop Williamson when he consecrated Bishop for in 2015. >> Yes. >> And they said the Society of St. P the 10th regrets sincerely that this spirit of opposition has led to an Episcopal consecration etc etc and they go on and basically well they say the word denounce and they say it's basically an act of um rebellion revolution it's not the same as 1988 so now it seems they're doing or at least in justifying their own arguments with sim similar reasoning it seems >> what's the difference I mean we we need to provide for tradition >> we are not setting up a parallel church we are we are not setting accountantists, you know, we pray for the for Poplo. So, what what's what's really the difference? Uh maybe they were >> undercuts their arguments then against the resistance. Say, hey, look, we were just simply doing what you're now doing years ago.
Father Chazal: >> Yes. By by the principles of of this docuмent, they should not consecrate, you know, if wait for the pope's permission. >> So, that docuмent makes no sense. >> And so, maybe they will sweep that docuмent uh under the rug, you know. So just like they they are sweeping under the rug the April 15th declaration. So they don't mention it. They don't like to mention it.
Host: >> What's the April 15th declaration again father?
Father Chazal: >> Well it's uh on the very day the 100 years by the very day commemoration of seeking of the Titanic. It's um doctrinal protocol >> that the bishop F signed and sent to Rome >> uh in order to get the permission uh to get the canonical uh uh recognition and inclusion uh into the canonical structure of the noisord church.
Host: >> This is in the 2010.
Father Chazal: >> Yeah. In 2012. In 2012. So April 15th, 2012. and and that and that docuмent accepts Vatican 2 in the light of tradition >> accepts the the new code and uh and and recognize the new mass as legitimately promulgated and so that's a major that's was a point of it was a a mini Vatican 2 in the SSPX >> that's what I think most people don't understand because there's a lot of influencers father who are you know sort of new to tradition in the last five years and they have a lot of podcasts but they don't understand the history of the SSPX going back even like back to 2006 when the SSPX if you can recall uh and correct me if I'm wrong basically said no practical accord with Rome without you know doctrinal agreement and then 2012 that was all thrown aside and for the last literally 14 years >> it's been nothing but an accordist practical policy
Father Chazal: >> yeah the the chapter of 206 was simple reminder of our constant position and um that was uh it's it's in line with the entire modern oath. It's in line with all the the struggles of our and um and then they they completely forgot that uh that position. My my wish is that they they say themselves and that they uh they place themselves in a in a position where whether they're their dangerous uh agreement with the consil church may evaporate you know at a practical level and that um so that's that's that's my my best best wish for them and so contrary to them I rejoice in their consecrating bishops I am not criticize them on on that move. I I think that move could help them to open their eyes or at least for the the the good priest to um to be to be good and and be better and for the liberals perhaps to leave the SSPX and go and go back to the consular church.
Host: >> Will be that stark that those who disagree.
Father Chazal: >> Yeah. Some districts of the SSPX are deeply are deeper with no than than others like the district of Poland is in full collaboration with no uh and then with a full recognition from the local bishops. You have Polish priests come straight from the dascese with no consalation on whatever and they are put on the grid of the SSPX chapels. And likewise in Germany, the the Germans were uh very happy to have Bishop Ponder who was never considated. And Bishop Ponder never uh condemned Vatican 2. Uh he just said we were not very nice during Vatican 2, but he he never condemned the council or or the new mass or anything. And they they took Wonder as a as a as a savior, you know, as as the way to go. And then wander passed away a few days before uh celebrating the Christmas mass for the second time while the SSPX was planning to have him giving confirmation and perhaps later holy orders. So that was prevented by divine providence.
Host: So >> was it true that his holy oils were rejected by French priests at the time where there was even bishop say I've got my own holy oils. you know when he went to Germany he used his own holy oils.
Father Chazal: >> Yeah. >> So but the liberals would uh would impose those those oils. The German priest flew in Asia uh carrying the wonderful oils and then and then to impose those oils on the priest of the district of Asia. >> Yes. >> The French the French seem to be at least the more hardline of all the countries. Here here's a a screenshot from 2017 >> when the French uh deans rebelled and said we don't want the marriage accord who's now the second assistant for you know with father pagani so it's sort of interesting to >> to see him come sort of full circle and doesn't support this
Father Chazal: >> father was always kind of liberal we have always known him that way so when he was superior district in Argentina he was in good rel best best of terms with cardinal burglio so they they were great friends >> and and it's the cardinal Burglio who himself uh did the motions to the Argentine government uh to establish the uh the visa situation and a legal position of the SSPX in Argentina. So they he was best of friends with with Francis even before he was a pope. So is is is a typical liberal member of the SSP is is is one of those who really worries worries us. Yes.
Host: >> Yeah. Now the 2018 um general chapter was where father Pagani was was installed. My understanding is that he was more of a compromised candidate who was pleasing to the more hardline if you would say the de gallereta and um tissier line and then but he was acceptable to filet because he defended him at a previous chapter and was also from Argentina so he had some ties potentially with Francis. Is that how you see his election and sort of what do you make of his tenure so far? elections.
Father Chazal: >> Uh he saved Bishop F in a general chapter when uh Father Deja brought the April 15th declaration and 2012 >> 2012 and Bishop F because after April there was a general chapter which illegally expelled Bishop uh Williamson you know.
Host: >> Now why why was that illegal? Because he wasn't there.
Father Chazal: >> Uh he wasn't there. Yes. And then but still father deja had a moment of courage and brought the text of the declaration refuted the declaration in the chapter itself and it's father pagarini who said bishop file who say we cannot slap our superior general in the face so that's uh >> basically he he made an interjection and said we can't allow this >> yes so I said let's make a doctrinal declaration uh so he proposed the motion uh which will be positive not negative against bishop file uh and and and um and and so the they would deal the the problem with with something a replacement docuмent, you know, to to anesthetize the situation and then and that saved the that saved really uh Bishop Phil because within a chapter the super general is power is suspended. You know, the chapter has a greater authority than the superior general. So it could have been the end of Bishop Fle but it was not thanks to father Paglarini and also Bishop Gallera came in in and and and rescued Bishop Fle as well. So I think Father Paglarini is in close tie with Bishop Gallera. M >> I think the the two of them think the same >> then um >> they got it right wasn't he was always sort of sort of suspected to be more conservative because he was along with Tissier and Bishop Williamson with their three the letter of the three that was leaked out so they they worked together on that.
Father Chazal: >> Yes. But then he completely disappeared and disintegrated like Bishop Tier himself you know >> in when those problems uh were amplified. I could not believe my ears when Bishop T told me uh be silent. I got 10 times more on Bishop Fleet than you have but be silent.
Host: >> What does that mean? I guess what does that what was he referring?
Father Chazal: >> I don't understand. And I told him I don't we don't hear anything uh uh from you and and then he said when the time will come we we will speak up and then and everything and then he passed away. Yeah. >> So it was but but Bishop Tier was a great mind. He was very analytic compatant too. Flawless intellectually speaking but nothing went to the wheels I must say.
Now as to father well he is Italian so maybe there's a lot of combination and everything but I salute his his gesture. We were very disappointed during COVID when he gave an English conference where he said the the argument of the antiax is like those proabortion, pro-choice, >> my body is my choice, >> which is a sophism, you know, because uh the abortionist precisely cannot say it's not their body anymore. The body of a baby is not their body. It's another human person. >> Mhm. And so we were shocked to to see the weakness of father pagarini during covid. Maybe some of them were more courageous than that but father pagarini was way below par at that moment.
Host: >> Yeah there there was several actually. There was one uh from con who said you can justify getting the shot for reasons to in order to you know be um to gain access to hospitals and these sorts of things especially. And so somebody had >> Father Selen and their medical expert. Yes, >> that's right. Yes. And then Father um I believe Father Sherry in Canada >> uh was saying on a podcast as well like you know you could get this but my my argument against what they were all saying is look this is not a a regular vaccine. It's designed to genetically manipulate who we are DNA. So like it's it's a antichristic cristic. Uh
Father Chazal: >> well there are three reasons. It's communism first. Yeah. >> Uh it's a it's a communist thing. Uh all the aspects of the vaccine and everything and the surveillance society, the Orwellian project, that's the first reason. We are against communism. It's against the fifth commandment. Uh and it's it's against uh and it's tied with abortion, you know. So >> so for these three great reasons, we had to to stand up, you know. So I understand that you know in in their schools in their institutions they got to be discreet at that time the but making a statement that favors the imposition of the vaccine on on people. Uh no that's um that's not good. Yes.
Host: >> Back to the uh consecrations themselves. Bishop Vegano put out a statement. He said uh he supports it. He said it demonstrates the impossibility of any dialogue with the holy sea. It it it uh showcases a double standard where they express and extend cidality to heretics and others but to a priestly society that simply wants to continue doctrinal tradition. Uh they do not support that. Did you read his excellency statement?
Father Chazal: >> I I agree with his statement and then also everybody else adds also that it's in contradiction with the Vatican exonerating the Chinese Communist bishops because it's the Communist Party that appoints the bishops. So this is also one of the hurdles that Don Davidid will have to um to jump because the society is big. It has a lot of properties and then those properties are under a legal structure uh of the um western governments especially in France you know where there is a culture that manages all the assets of the SSPX and so um so you know we in the resistance were too small to attract attention there was some attention attracted when bishop 4 was consecrated you know even the uh the the uh the rabbis even noticed that Bishop Williamson was providing a future >> a sacramental future for the Catholic Church.
Then he was at the at the proposal of the Jєωιѕн council. Uh he was barred from Australia. I I I was there when he he could not board the plane in to Australia >> and um so the he will have to face father Palarini because he's sitting on a much bigger thing he will have to face also the opposition of the civil authorities you know uh in in 1988 uh the French government asked Cardinal Lustiger what should be done against the SSPX cardinal Archbishop of Paris told the French government to block the legacies of the SSPX which were blocked for some time.
Host: >> Block the what, father? Excuse me.
Father Chazal: >> The the legacies, the the donations, the behazing of properties to the SSPX. So that was blocked for quite some time. >> So that was the French the move of the French government. Uh >> you suspect that will happen here? I think this is a it's a quite different time, don't you think? now 88
Father Chazal: >> different time and it's kind of a it would be good that they consecrate also for that principle is that we must not ask the opinion of the Masonic governments meic republics or the Chinese communist party for that matter for the appointment of the highest official of the Catholic Church. If we got in this mess in the first place, if we got Vatican 2 in the first place is because the popes were always asking the um the list of candidates the nomination from those governments whether it's German government, French government, Dutch government, Belgian governments, you know, the Rhy Alliance, >> all those and then you see when you had Catholics head of state like Salazar and Franco and then and and the good heads of states in South America, you had overall good bishops. Uh but uh that works that works in in a Catholic society where the where the head of state is is really Catholic because the church acknowledges that a bishop has a political power but it doesn't work with governments which are hostile to the church. Mhm.
Host: >> So um uh u that's why we also support the their consecration of bishops because it it would continue the trend uh for the resurrection of the Catholic Church >> and the I have heard some people though they are a little worried because well if if eventually there is some sort of arrangement with Leo that's worked out or he gives a stamp of approval. I mean as you've said before your view is SSPX has become more liberal at least it's priest now. >> I mean this is they're basically FSSP 2.0. No. So really is this really is this a stand for the faith or is it simply finally they've reached the fillet?
Father Chazal: >> That's why I say it's only we've got only 25%. So we got the announcement of the date uh 1st of July. Um that's 25%. But you see Rome wouldn't say anything. Uh Rome would let it happen perhaps grumbling a little bit. um if they get the the bishops that they want to be consecrated or play bishops like Bishop Bushakur you can imagine >> if you put Bishop Bushakur Bishop Stellin uh Rome would be very happy or Bishop Schminberger uh Rome I think Rome would >> he's about 80 something now isn't he >> yeah Rome Rome would would not do the great theater that they made in 1988 they would not repeat the same mistake because uh after 1988 the the tradition got a great publicity and um and continued to spread a lot you know after after 1988.
Host: >> So 1988 was a catalyst that also help a further spread of tradition. So perhaps Rome wants to avoid that and then they they will certainly as of now I would think they would certainly push for a candidate that they would like to have uh as a successor of Bishop Fle and um and and Bishop Galita because in Bishop Fle Rome has what it wants in Bishop Fle. So I think uh their their damage control would would be uh at least to get um somebody as good as Bishop Fle as far as a collaboration with the consil church. >> Do you think it'd be an American because you know America they have the new seminary here the new St. Mary's church I mean they put a lot of money in
Father Chazal: >> Yeah there's a lot of money there's a lot of faithful it's big yes and then there will be perhaps an American in the mix. Yeah, I don't know which one, but what a youngster, you know, plant. And then um yes, >> how do you think Leo I mean he does seem to say, and he said this several times, I want to avoid polarization. And it does seem he's trying to reach out to everybody. He had this consistry in the Vatican recently. They didn't talk about the Latin mass, but uh it seems with with this um which is you know much higher intensification than the Latin mass. This would be something I suspect he doesn't want to happen without his approval in some way. I think he wants to
Father Chazal: >> Yes. Now he's obliged to act. Now he's he's obliged to act and he's been so nice with all the LGBTs and all the letters of the alphabet. We he has been so nice with the with everybody else. And then um so how can he uh blame uh the the SCPX you know and then what what our friends you know in the day movement you know those who don't react well to a consecration without papal mandate is that heresy is a lot worse than schism you know heresy is a cubic ratio of schism and so the one who is dividing the church is polio the one who needs to be regularized Yes. >> Is polio and the consil church. They are the one who are in a state of deep illegality and and and and they are and they are coming to us with another gospel. And so they are the ones who really need to be regularized and and and recognized.
Host: >> Well, it reminds me of um the great statement that the SSPX leaders put out. Uh you might recall this in 1988. Uh and it says gathered around our general super spirit general superiors of districts etc. >> Uh as for us we are in full communion with all the popes and bishops before the council. We let you judge on which side the rupture is to be found. And they basically said it's a badge of honor to be excommunicated from this. That's the fighting spirit aspects of old. I don'tated here.
Father Chazal: >> Well uh just like recently I read the sermon of Don David in Rome. That was a nice pious sermon. But if you read the sermons of you know 50 years before in the jubilee because you know we we would go to Rome to for the jubilee you know we are Catholics but we use the the moment to condemn Vatican to the new mass >> and and he was firing away he was blasting away because that's the occasion you know that's that's the occasion you can use to denounce the the new room and so it's night and day night and day the the those two sermons Don David and and so they there was there is an a clear erosion.
Now um you know with almighty God you know when we go that way well God can um puts us to the test. >> So the SPX could get a good stress test. My best wish for them is that they could a great stress test that the the the liberal elite in the SSPX rebels and then and turmoils and tribulation and what what would come out of it would be a separation, you know, a separation. You separate oil from water after the extraction and then and then and then the good elements of the SSPX go up and and the and the liberals go down the drain, you know, and and and and stay stay legal with uh with Polio. No, that's that would be my best wish for them. They they are in need of a stress test and um >> yeah, >> not because I wish them evil, because I I wish them the best.
Host: >> Like you said, they have they have such a massive influence in many ways. They're seen regardless of whether or not it's correct as the tip of the traditional spear because they they are the biggest, they have the most priests, they're most well organized and well funded. So like you want them to do well and say the right things. So
Father Chazal: >> yeah, but you got to split the SSPX in two. The there are there are it's jewel, you know, it's like in the statue of Nebuchadnezzar, it's both iron and and clay. >> So um >> so where where are those divisions then? Is it the older priests uh the Bishop Williamson generation that are more hardline and the younger ones are more >> among the olders? You got the liberals and the conservatives. >> Okay. you you have uh priests who are very friendly with us still and um very polite and then always ready to talk to us on the phone for for a long time. Uh among the youngsters it's more neutral and then they are completely pliant and clueless. Uh and I what I what I worry is that you know one of those younglings would be uh which has spineless priest would be made bishops. Mhm.
Host: >> That would worry me as well. >> Do you have any names potentially? That would be the worst case scenario.
Father Chazal: >> All this when when you see them the uh one of them a few years ago came out and says no don't expect too much from me. You know I am a young priest and everything and >> it's not the fire is not the same as in the 90s when I I I was there in the US. >> Why do you why is that then? what where >> what is the erosion of time you know it's it can happen to us as well and then so to remedy that God sends us tribulations so uh so perhaps the the best case scenario for the SSPX is that the the the liberals um can't swallow the idea of consecrating without people mandate >> and then there will be some internal strife and then the uh certain um clarific ification would uh would happen.
So the as of now the SSPX is a is a mixed bag. Yeah, it's a it's a mixed bag. I'm not sure if Father Pagarini controls the moral person of the SSPX, the finances. >> It's all murky. I'm not sure to to what extent he controls the um the >> Is Max Cross still involved? Was he the you know >> uh we don't we don't hear about him anymore but uh the the legal and financial structure worries us. This the centralization in Zurich the centralization of all the assets and monies and and everything worries us and then um and and then in some of their schools their collaboration with the civil governments like in Australia you know uh is very worrisome. So that is worrisome. Yeah. So, so it's the I I think the there's can be there's a reasonable fear that the moral person and the assets of the SSPX are in the wrong hands >> and because that's the way the enemy has always worked, you know, and then regularly end up thrown out on the on the streets, you know, because of that.
Host: I want to um bring this up as well because you know to to what you said earlier about this being a little different than 1988. This is a statement put out by Una Voce Foundation. Now this is the Latin Mass Society >> and they they're just Latin masters. That's all they want.
Father Chazal: >> Yes. Yeah. I knew them in Korea. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so they're actually they actually like expressed great sympathy here. They said um they hope uh for the canonical regularization which would enable many good works to bear possible fruit. I won't read the rest of it, but their general position is now and it seems to me as well is that even online like these influencers who are not, you know, SSPX, but they're just, you know, they look with some admiration for LEFV, >> it seems they're sort of championing or rooting for some sort of deal to be struck because they they just want this issue to go away and everything to be normal so there's a clear line so you don't you can go to SSPX. So, what do you make of that? Because that's one thing that it's very different than 88 because uh there's a sort of support system to say let yes let's make a deal here uh from outside actors uh that are quite influential.
Father Chazal: >> Well they uh they have swung to the right of the SSPX now because they are more on regular contact with those radicals in the Vatican with Pope Francis and and Leo was the same ideas as Francis. So they they understand more the the necessity to to resist um than uh than even the SSPX because when you are big the Vatican the Vatican treats you very nice. We saw that Poplio treated the the fraternity of St. Peter very nice same as the Institute of Christ the King.
So when you are of some weight Rome is very nice but you see here there's unabuche here in Korea and they are being crushed by the Korean bishops. >> Huh. And so so they are very close to us and then we provide for them and then and we are happy to do so and I understand you know because uh so if you are if you are weak the Rome will try to crush you and then whenever possible Rome suppresses the the Latin masses >> and and I think uh with the years as as the years go by with their experience they understand that the the best position is position of the resistance. Yes. And that's why they they they expressed sympathy to the SSPX perhaps in in this docuмent I would say.
Host: >> Can you explain why you and the SSPX parted ways? Uh were you removed?
Father Chazal: >> That was a new position. So uh we were we were asked under pain of punishment >> not to oppose the deal the the arrangement and reconcil canonical reconciliation with the official church. and and and then Father Kucher was very clear and then um Bishop Fle was multiplying the statements. Benedict was there, you know, they really hoped that Benedict would be so nice with us and so on and so forth. >> And what what year was his father? >> That was 2012. 2012. >> And there were attempts before, but those were derailed several times over by Bishop Williamson. Mhm. >> Uh including in 2009 when he had his Swedish TV interview which derailed the process in that year. >> The process was further derailed in 2011 and then uh then in 2012 um then so and so they told us to be quiet and to let it happen. And so we we we we thought some of us thought that it was too much and we had to uh to air it out and to warn the faithful.
Host: Well, what were some of the main concerns there? Because there might be some people who are watching today who aren't familiar with the SSPX, aren't familiar with the resistance and they would probably say, well, >> well, the SSPX never compromised. What what was Father Shazal's main issue with with the deal with Rome? Maybe can use it.
Father Chazal: >> Well, the text is there. So again this is this April 15th declaration >> which was which is doctrinal doctrinal statement and the many interviews that were given by bishop around that time uh that uh and the statements that he made like uh he goes he goes to with Canizares he sees a new mass within sons and latin and he says if seen that mass he would never have done what he had done. Mhm. >> It's a very bizarre statement. >> And so, um, we were patient, we waited. Uh, but then when when they started to show us the guillotine, uh, and ask us to choose um, we for us it was a sign that we had to warn the the faithful. >> And they're basically threatening to punish or remove you from the >> We were thrown out pretty quick. Yes. So I was thrown out on October the 4th and Bishop Williamson was thrown out around that same time and so forth.
Host: >> Sean Johnson, who you might know is reprinting yours and other >> priest's letters. Uh here's one that you wrote and then here's another one you wrote in April of 2013. Yeah. >> Could you maybe summarize some of what you wrote back then and and what was your you know
Father Chazal: >> Well, you see in Manila, you know, when when this happened, Father Pure put me with Father Len and I had to sit for hours with him and he tried to brainwash me into into admitting that can a deal with Rome would be nice, would be protected, we would be strong. And um Lenny was >> he tried to brainwash me for for a long time. So my my worries you know that uh you know they really wanted to deal you know >> they they they really wanted to make it happen.
Whereas you know the um uh revelation you know the divine law states you know with heresy you you cannot uh you cannot be in in in close association with heretics you know now the uh a heretic will always bite. So, and with a heretic it's even worse. So, we we have to to keep a reasonable distance from from Polio and Popl is forthcoming. He had an as easy meeting of all religions within 10 days of his election. So, Poplio is very clear, you know, he looks better than Francis. He controls his temper. Uh he looks nice. He's using nice attire and everything and he looks presentable, but he it's the same ideology and he's more I I would say he's more effective because he's very coherent in his appointment of the worst possible bishops and cardinals and member of the purial and he was the one who in charge of the appointments during the pontificate of Pope Francis. >> So um he's really he's a consistent and dangerous heretic. Yeah, it seems a lot of trad at least they did for the first several months. You know, we are so bad.
Host: >> Yes. Uh like Taylor Marshall. Yes. But you woke up on the on that issue. Yes. So >> the zippet policy of Michael M, he says we got to stay quiet. We got to get the Latin mass from uh from >> they are our sympathy goes to them. they are a work in progress >> and then we hope they they come to uh to I mean gradually I think everybody will come to that position I mean gradually and then if the if the SSPX concentrate those bishops it's a step in the right direction I cannot condemn them on this I I I wish them to survive >> I I wish them to shake their their liberal wing away and then um and and let the best triumph within the SSPX so I salute the uh the declaration of father Parin.
He's still my prayers are with him. Uh I I I urge people to pray for the SSPX. My prayers are with him. I hope it's going to happen. Um I hope and pray it will happen with and then that they will get themselves good bishops, bishops that are not uh that don't have those uh weaknesses that we see in some of their priests. >> That's my my best wish for them. uh uh what we did in 2012 um I hope was not in a spirit of bitterness and lack of charity towards them. They took it really bad you know they were really hurt and then they they really pounced on us and then we we were very clear also on on our side but um we have to wait until the waters of the flood of heresy go down >> we have to wait in the meantime our job is to grow and multiply. Yes, let them grow and multiply. Let them let them all grow and and and multiply.
And I would say even that to the euical cificantists, you know, continue to grow and multiply and uh and make the consular church a visible minority. Uh it's beginning to happen in the west in not yet in Asia, but in Asia, we are growing. We are definitely growing in Korea. Yes. >> Now, what is >> just for for them?
Host: >> Yeah. But I very well said I I agree with all that. I think um uh everyone has to uh play their part and everyone's at different areas. I think even Bishop Williamson in one of his last leasison comments he said >> I am not a set of aantis but you know chair to be toward charitable towards everybody and he was I think specifically mentioning Archbishop Vegano who had taken a very strong stance and said you know Francis is an anti- pope. So that's a good I think strategy so-called to extend just towards fellow Catholics who >> now what is beautiful now everybody calls oneself a son of you know it was not the case 40 years ago >> right >> now everybody is a son of so >> yeah well I mean I I I will say though I mean his excellency did make a lot of comments on different sides of things so you have a lot of the um uh neospers will quote him from the mid 80s the resistance will quote him from the late uh 80s and early 90s and then uh um he didn't make too many pro-ificantis arguments but I think he did say a few things to that extent and so there's a lot you can pull from I think from from nich bishop but um
Father Chazal: >> yes said you know if you keep it personal as an opinion uh we can collaborate and then and he did collaborate with those who kept it as a as a personal opinion you know >> because down the line heresy by its nature causes the loss of office you It causes a heresy immediately causes the loss of legitimacy in the in the acts. The the acts are still valid. But um a heretic loses ipsu facto the lity of his of his actions that that is if you are aware that he's a that he is a heretic you cannot approach him for acts of jurisdiction. >> That's what can law states. Yeah, >> this is one thing I always did think about the last years of Le FB's life because he did warn for sure against collaboration.
But >> it seems there are some things he did say where it opened to the door to say well if they unilaterally recognize you with no strings attached um potentially that's something we we could see an agreement upon. So if um like Leo says to >> we we will quote unquote recognize you as we are. That's a big phrase that used to be used by the SSPX.
Father Chazal: >> Well, had those illusions, you know, and then he he had he was surrounded by many liberals within the SSP act in his time. So, he felt that he had to try. Uh, but he he never expected any positive outcome of it, but he tried it for the sake of the liberals that were around him. Even you use unfortunate expression, I would say in my opinion like allow us to to do the experience of tradition, you know, as if it was a today still yes >> and the Vatican 2 in the light of tradition that's very unfortunate and even his protocol you know was was regrettable and and and his protocol gave the basis from the for the April 15th declaration you know now he did admit once and it was a mistake you know so well we all make mistakes you know all of us can make mistakes but uh overall the the general direction of Jul was very clear and the principle is contained in the 1974 declaration so we have nothing to do with whatever departs from the Catholic faith and that's that's that is what should unites us gradually uh our unity depends on on this principle that whatever is opposed to the eternal realm must be completely rejectedand we are not looking for a nice place in the sun uh we are lamenting on what's happening to our mother the church and she needs to be freed from those chains uh the and and she needs to be freed from uh all those vipers that have entered into the house of the lord. >> So until that happens uh we are not out of the mire you know and and it's not about just uh just us. So I'm glad that you know even 40 years after the consecration of uh 1988 you know we have expanded and then and then Vatican hesitates now you know so even when Francis did his uh tradition which can be translated in Latin literally the prison guards of tradition >> uh it failed you know they could not shut down that many mass centers you know at least in France in Asia They they try to uh to uh to destroy everything. But uh we are around now and and so those people who want the traditional mask can can uh can uh can have us. But the the principles were clearly laid down by by and they they remain they remain in in better view than uh than uh than before.

Host: Mhm. So I mean uh obviously you no regrets on your part because you were fighting the fight you had to at that time and even though now the SPX might you know have their own bishops it it was it was just natural or providential that just had to have them this way essentially.
Father Chazal: >> Yes. Which with a smile that we brandish their 2015 declaration you know with a certain smile because they're in they're in the same position you know because we we have to have the continuity for sacraments. Uh after 2012 we we bashed Archbishop no Bishop Williamson to consecrate bishops. We really pushed hard you know all of us we we we pushed hard and then until he he gave us a sufficient number of bishops you know. >> Yes. What do you think he would make of everything today? I mean he just had his one-y year anniversary. >> He would rejoice. I think he would rejoice because he he when father Pagarani was elected he expressed his best wishes to him. Mhm. And then later on he was a bit disappointed but uh no we uh we wish them the best you know let them let them consecrate the right bishops.
Host: >> Yes. >> How how is the resistance these days? What's the latest? It's growing. It seems like you said >> uh it's growing in parts you know it's difficult in France. Very divided in France >> but it's growing uh everywhere. you know, uh, here in Korea, I've got eight eight locations where I say the mass. >> So, it's a big surprise. It was not the case two years ago. I had only one location and then now there is a a big surge which coincides with the ordination of Father Andrew Kim. >> In the in the Philippines, we've got 40 uh 40 groups. >> Is that coming then? Is that is that upcoming forthcoming for Andrew or >> it's June 29th? He will be ordained by Bishop Balini in Ireland. >> Wonderful. Yeah. and then he is arriving in Korea on July 15th. So the Koreans are very happy and um so there is growth on our side. We our biggest problem is the lack of seminarians. So I've got only two seminarians left. I'm going to lose one because it's going to become priests. So I'll be down to one seminarian. >> So that's uh so but I was there I was in the territory before. >> Is this the seminary here, father?
Father Chazal: >> Yes, that seminary that that one was wiped out by the typhoon. The super typhoon. >> Ah that's right. and rebuilt fully. Now >> now the tower has the roof now. We just put the roof on the on the tower that was wiped out. >> I see. >> So the the roof is back but the rooms are not yet finished. They will be finished for the priest meeting there >> in uh in September. Yes. >> Wonderful. And what is your relationship with with um the Marian Corps with other resistance groups?
Father Chazal: >> So we collaborate with all the six bishops. We are in uh I want to stay in friendly terms with all the the six bishops. Bishop Alini is the one who comes to Asia to do the confirmations and he's the one who is ordaining bishop Father Andrew Kim >> but we are in good relations with with all the other bishops or we try to have the best relations with the other bishops. Um and then um so for instance for their vacations the Filipinos they go back to Brazil to say hello to Dontto Aquinas. >> Mhm. >> And then they do the mission runs in in in Brazil where there are about 20 priests of the resistance now in Brazil >> or South America at large. I'm not so sure. And then um Bishop Zanderas is definitely doing a good work in America.
And then um Bishop for has a missions a few missions in France and a good apostlate in uh in Eastern Europe. Bishop Stoniki has got I heard he's got 14 groups in Poland. >> There are small groups but I think he's got 14 group and he's got a team of six or seven priests >> or more now and some seminarians. Bishop Balini has he's got the has got the most seminarians uh among us all. So he's got four seminarians in Ireland and there are four others in in in Italy. >> So Bishop Berlin is doing very well as far as seminarians are concerned. >> Yeah. >> And then Bishop Morgan went to Nigeria to um to help and then um and then he has England is thriving with him and with Father King. Overall I was saying recently 140 priests.
I was hoping the redemptorrists would join us but it's not the case. We cannot afford to to lose the u you know the visible unity of the Catholic Church. The even the white man in Rome far far away is still uh he's still providing something to the Catholic Church despite all his weaknesses you know. >> Yeah. I interviewed father Michael Mary over there and um like the day after his his statement came out and he was very very much uh interested in this question as well as you know saying hey look we want to stay on as good terms as possible with everybody. >> I wish I could give you my book on ceantism that you know on the question of the heretical pope there is no common sentence I mean there is a classic opposition between the Dominicans and the Jesuits >> between uh Bellerin and John of St. Thomas there is it's a classic uh it's a classical position they discussed it a lot it was it was fairly discussed topic you know at the theoretical level and then they never come with the same conclusion you know >> yeah so so my guess I've heard um you it's a different religion right that and that affects the ineffectability of the church itself where whereas the heresy of a pope may be okay we can debate that but what cannot be um discussed is the different religion of prevatican 2 post Vatican 2. And that's a bit of a a heft a heftier argument to say, okay, this is a false religion, false church, potentially false pope.
Father Chazal: >> You know, it's not that quick because the there is a rule of law, you know, and and heresy doesn't bear its consequence of a loss of office >> immediately. I it leads to it, but not not immediately, not straightforward. There's a rule of if you are a heretic your actions are immediately uh illegal you know are they they likely say >> um but they are still valid actions like we we it's obvious that the marriages in are valid uh and the and the confessions can be valid if the doubtful order was valid the confession is is valid and the marriages are are valid so we do not break no sort of marriages >> so acts of juris jurisdiction uh conferred by heretics can remain valid and it was it was the case also in the Jansenist crisis. Pope Benedict the 14th said despite them being heretics their acts of jurisdiction remain valid. No >> it's a famous case. >> It sounds similar to Bishop Sambborn's maybe the thesis. Is that what you're similarly arguing?
Father Chazal: >> It's not it's not the exact same because a material pope is not the pope you know. Yeah. But what we say we we we we simply say the law says stay keep out. It's not listenit. If you know they are heretics you must keep out because they're their acts of jurisdiction are illicit. See have a big problem with the marriage tribunals. He says we can't work with them. They they are not Catholics anymore on that issue. It's completely rotten. You see? So that's why the the church would say uh uh marriages given by heretics are are illicit. You know don't don't go to them especially for marriages. So uh the spirit of the Catholic Church is that we stay away from the uh acts of jurisdiction of heretics >> because uh because they it's all fested with with heretical principle especially on the question of marriage the noord has it completely wrong they completely overturn the ends of marriage >> right >> so they they they are absolutely wrong so the the Catholic church says immediately keep distance but Benedict the 14th uh said their uh for the minores uh their acts of jurisdiction remain valid and and issued famous uh statements at the evand scandal it's called to avoid scandals >> okay >> to avoid scandals so we the Catholic church still admits that the Johnsonist bishops even those who are formerly heretics uh that their their acts of jurisdiction can be uh valid yes if our forefathers could not figure out the solution on this issue.
um uh and if you read uh the DTC on the question of people infallibility what it consists in exactly its terms it is not that simple you cannot uh have a a solution as simplistic as the cific solution and also the problem they all become pope you know that's a problem like Luther said now I killed the pope and now I've got one 10,000 popes around me and and Bish who is is raising the issue because if there is no pope there by the law there must be a conclave call within 10 days you know it's not >> I interviewed bishop on this point yeah it was trying to discuss the um >> the theological argument around jurisdiction and uh what does that allow a a clergyman to to do and uh I know he's not pushing it super hard he just wanted to throw it out there but I think it's >> well it's good that he throws because it's something that condemns civic accountant citism because it's part of the constitution.
Would you have a United States without a white house with only the Senate uh and and the House of Representatives? You know, it's part of the the way the the church functions. So and that's why you have a whole uh portion of the cedantist movement which is conclavist and and and that's why Glorier has his is his his theories in order to avoid that necessity that he that he has his his thesis and and that's why the Dolanites call him a traitor but uh gardier understand the conclavition you know that for Catholic the Catholic is endowed with a with a papacy. Yes. So >> I do know Bishop Sambborn when I spoke to him he he was not he doesn't support that because he would say well we're just applied jurisdiction. We don't have the authority for that. So I know they're not I don't I don't know which one >> because comes from the Dolanite line which is a hardcore cificantism. uh so that the there is no pope whatsoever you know >> I am the institute of the mother of the good shepherd so they are the dominant cificantist in Europe >> yeah in France is that right >> they dominate in Europe but they don't dominate in in in in America it's the Dolanites the hardcore cificantist that dominate the the field >> oh I see bishop Dan okay yeah >> is the samurai which is also Another cup of tea CMRI they follow they follow strictly pious the 12th so they use the new holy week and that's a problem with the other civicantists >> yeah does that even FSSP will do the pre-55 m >> yes so yeah but then then they dogmatize on it they make they make it a dogmatic question >> and so that's why the uh the pon knights are separate from the sunburn knights because the sunburn knights are using the pre-55 Holy week, you see, they all become little popes and that's what we want to avoid.
Host: >> Does well, I have to ask this. Don't the resistance bishops become their own popes too or
Father Chazal: >> Yeah. And that's why we that's why we extend our sympathy to to the to all of them to the SSPX >> to Navuch to to the uh because we don't want to be our little popes. You know, we we're not saying that they are going to hell because they don't agree with our explanation of the crisis of the church. The the first thing you must realize is that the question is extremely difficult. We are in a in a very difficult position. >> What we want is everybody to keep the faith. Keep the faith and exclude the heresy. Understand that principle first. It's a divine law. It's the epistle of St. John. Don't say hi to the heretic. Um maybe for those who are still watching and who don't understand fully >> some of the resistance positions. Um you know can and I mean I'm bringing up here on the screen here. This is Bishop uh Father Morgan when he left he pointed to you're talking about the marriage decree when the SSPX received so-called jurisdiction from from Francis. Uh why was that such a controversial thing? I mean what what is it about those things that made him and potentially others leave over the years >> because the church is not competent for marriages? It's especially on the question of marriages that the sold church is horrible >> and all these things. So it's in in in this regard. So if you cave in to them, if you give give them uh if you say that their jurisdiction is listenitu, you you are compromising and and you are endangering families >> and that's what we saw recently. We had a recent case in the district of France which is supposed to be conservative within within the SSPX and so they they ask you know ladies chancellors in the dasis for the permission for their marriages you know >> and if the permission is refused then they they use supply jurisdiction that we use. >> Yeah. Yeah. back. >> So, and on the question of marriage and and father Morgan is a former superior of district and he certainly had an experience with no jurisdictions on on marriage and so that uh for him it's when his eyes open because interestingly he's the one who showed bishop Williamson the door you know >> right >> and I don't believe Bishop forgave him in the most beautiful of ways you know >> it's he's the only one that I know who's been forgiven with impos position of hands and consecration of holy oils. >> It's quite quite beautiful. >> So, so it's a beautiful history of the resistance. You know, it's part of the >> um and that's a spirit, you know, that's a spirit that we would like to have, you know, maybe I can close on this remark.



One time I was in New Delhi in India and I saw a little bitty rick shaw, you know, and there are two stickers on the top, God is love, you know, and at the bottom, keep distance. >> I had my camera. I was so struck. I couldn't I didn't take the picture, you know, because I would I took 40,000 pictures in in in India. >> I was I was dumbfounded. I was so amazed. I was laughing so much. Uh That could be our moto in these in these occasions, you know. >> That's right. >> Our divine love, our divine lord is is a is a god of infinite love. >> We must secure that infinite love and all these channels. But uh we must keep distance with uh with what separates us >> from his eternal and infinite embrace. You know, >> thank you for being here, father. Uh this is your YouTube channel here where a lot of your sermons are posted as well as former sermons of Bishop Williamson. That's my last word. You know, God is love. Keep distance. >> Keep perfect. >> So be faithful uh to truth to good and uh reject uh reject more and more the conceal your church. Then we saw the church. You know, it's a 1974 principle, the declaration of 1974. So, uh, Don Davidid said, "We endorse that declaration." All right, showtime. Showtime. Do it. The church and all its errors and all its reforms, uh, the new canonizations and and so on and so forth. It's we wish you the best. >> By all mean, provide yourself, provide Catholic families with sacraments and multiply. That's our best best wish to you within those lines, you know, and do do not uh draw them near the the poison of the consilio church. Yes. >> Well, thank you for your time today, father. We appreciate it. Bless you. God bless you. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Yes. >> All right. Thank you everybody for tuning in to this episode of Church and State. Take care and God bless.