Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: mobius on June 13, 2013, 07:16:34 PM
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Is this Catholic doctrine?
Fr. Daniel Themann of SSPX - Freemasons Commit No Sin by Being a Freemason (http://gloria.tv/?media=458915)
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I've heard an independant priest argue similarly; I think it may be the case in some exceptions. I can't see the video for some reason (may be my firewall), so can't see if he clarifies his position.
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Oh man... how far has the neoSSPX theology program deteriorated?
This theme seems related to the same "divine ignorance" garbage Bp. Fellay is espousing. "But IF... he is a good Jєω or a good freemason".
For Papal Encyclicals, the condemnation of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ exceeds any other topic!
This is our "hour of darkness" and the Freemasons are closing in on us.
So, why is Father doing this?
Are we about to soon find out their are some neoSSPX freemasons?
I suppose the Society would deem it as okay, because the new 1983 Canon Law doesn't condemn Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ anymore?
This is just another example of how the neoSSPX has become infected with Rahnersim.
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Fr. Daniel Themann of SSPX - Freemasons Commit No Sin by Being a Freemason. According to Fr. Themann of the SSPX most Freemasons are "ignorant" and therefore commit no sin by being a Freemason, is this Catholic Doctrine?
No, ignorance does not excuse a mason from the mortal sin of being a mason. Fr. Thiemann is wrong, like many others who have been taught the same about Protestants, Jєωs, and other false religions.
Those who perish do not receive the love of truth in order that they might be saved. Therefore, God will send them the operation of error, to believe lying, so that all may be judged who have not believed the truth but have consented to iniquity. (II Thesss. 2:10-11)
The excuse of ignorance is denied those who know the commandments of God, but neither will those who do not know be without punishment. "For, as many as have sinned outside the law shall also perish outside the law" (Romans 2:12). Without faith in Christ, no man can be delivered; therefore, they will be judged in such a way that they perish. "The servant who does not know his Lord's will, and who commits things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes; whereas, the servant who knows his Lord's will, shall be beaten with many stripes" (Lk. 12:47 48). Observe here that it is a more serious matter for a man to sin with knowledge than in ignorance. And yet, we must not take refuge on this account to shades of ignorance, to find our excuse therein. Even ignorance which belongs to them who are, as it were, simply ignorant does not excuse anyone so as to exempt him from eternal fire, even were his failure to believe the result of not having heard at all what he should believe. It was not said without reason: "Pour out Thy wrath upon the nations who have not known Thee" (Psalm 78:6), and "He shall come from Heaven in a flame of fire to take vengeance on those who do not know God" (Thess.111:7 8).
(St. Augustine)
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Don't freemasons worship devils? Is it okay to be a devil-worshipper now? Does anyone take this guy seriously?
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Fr. Daniel Themann of SSPX - Freemasons Commit No Sin by Being a Freemason. According to Fr. Themann of the SSPX most Freemasons are "ignorant" and therefore commit no sin by being a Freemason, is this Catholic Doctrine?
No, ignorance does not excuse a mason from the mortal sin of being a mason. Fr. Thiemann is wrong, like many others who have been taught the same about Protestants, Jєωs, and other false religions.
Those who perish do not receive the love of truth in order that they might be saved. Therefore, God will send them the operation of error, to believe lying, so that all may be judged who have not believed the truth but have consented to iniquity. (II Thesss. 2:10-11)
The excuse of ignorance is denied those who know the commandments of God, but neither will those who do not know be without punishment. "For, as many as have sinned outside the law shall also perish outside the law" (Romans 2:12). Without faith in Christ, no man can be delivered; therefore, they will be judged in such a way that they perish. "The servant who does not know his Lord's will, and who commits things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes; whereas, the servant who knows his Lord's will, shall be beaten with many stripes" (Lk. 12:47 48). Observe here that it is a more serious matter for a man to sin with knowledge than in ignorance. And yet, we must not take refuge on this account to shades of ignorance, to find our excuse therein. Even ignorance which belongs to them who are, as it were, simply ignorant does not excuse anyone so as to exempt him from eternal fire, even were his failure to believe the result of not having heard at all what he should believe. It was not said without reason: "Pour out Thy wrath upon the nations who have not known Thee" (Psalm 78:6), and "He shall come from Heaven in a flame of fire to take vengeance on those who do not know God" (Thess.111:7 8). (St. Augustine)
To this witness is added the effective help of power from on high. For, the kind Lord stirs up those who go astray and helps them by his grace so that they may come to the knowledge of the truth; and also confirms by his grace those whom he has translated into his admirable light, so that they may persevere in this light, not abandoning them unless he is first abandoned. (First Vatican Council)
So simple; those whom the Triune God has predestined to everlasting life will come to the knowledge of the Truth. Ditto for sacramental Baptism.
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Don't freemasons worship devils? Is it okay to be a devil-worshipper now? Does anyone take this guy seriously?
It would be the "dummy", who thinks the Lodge is just a social club. He never gets in on the lies, extortions, murders or devil worship activities.
The freemasons claim this is an engineered part of their plan.
Unfortunately, for the Themann thesis, the internet world makes it hard to be a legitimate dummy anymore.
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Fr. Themann's argument can be used to justify all sins. Would he buy his own argument from a penitent in the confessional? This is convoluted liberal nonsense.
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Fr. Themann's argument can be used to justify all sins. Would he buy his own argument from a penitent in the confessional? This is convoluted liberal nonsense.
Are they putting something in the food at the seminary to make them think this way?
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Fr. Themann's argument can be used to justify all sins. Would he buy his own argument from a penitent in the confessional? This is convoluted liberal nonsense.
It seems that the only souls in eternal Hell will be the unrepentant child mass murderers (abortionists, of course, will get a free pass for their "ignorance") and traditional Catholics who die outside of full communion with Rome. Everyone else will have been "invincibly ignorant" at some level.
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Pope Leo XIII, Dall’Alto (# 2), Oct. 15, 1890: “It is needless now to put the Masonic sects
upon their trial. They are already judged; their ends, their means, their doctrines, and
their action, are all known with indisputable certainty. Possessed by the spirit of Satan,
whose instrument they are, they burn like him with a deadly and implacable hatred of
Jesus Christ and of His work; and they endeavor by every means to overthrow and
fetter it.”
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To Father Themann:
Dear Father,
Please advise us of your seminary formation on the subject of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?
We suggest you re-read this excerpt from Pope Leo XIII's ENCYCLICAL HUMANUM GENUS over the weekend and be prepared for a test on Monday.
Bishop Williamson will call you at 9:30AM MST to administer the test and your grade will be posted on Catholic Info.
Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ
Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, we must remember always, appeared generally and spread generally, too, in the interests of all that Voltaire aimed at, when it best suited his purpose. The first lodge established in France under the English obedience was in 1727.
Its founder and first master was the celebrated Jacobite, Lord Derwentwater. It had almost immediate acceptance from the degenerate nobility of France, who, partly because of the influence of English and Scotch Jacobite nobles, and partly because of its novelty, hard swearing, and mystery, joined the strange institution. Its lodges were soon in every considerable city of the realm. The philosophers and various schools of Atheists, however, were the first to enter into and to extend it. For them it had special attractions and special uses, which they were not slow to appreciate and to employ. Now, though it very little concerns us to know much of the origin of this society, which became then and since so notorious throughout the world, still, as that origin throws some light on its subsequent history, it will not be lost time to glance at what is known, or supposed to be known, about it. Mgr. Segur,1 Bishop of Grenoble, who devoted much time to a study of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, is persuaded that it was first elaborated by Faustus Socinus, the nephew of the too celebrated Laelius Socinus, the heresiarch and founder of the sect of Unitarians or, as they are generally called after him, Socinians. Both were of the ancient family of the Sozini of Sienna. Faustus, like many of his relatives, imbibed the errors of his uncle, and in order to escape the vigilance of the Inquisition, to which both Italy and Spain owed much of the tranquillity they enjoyed in these troublesome times, he fled to France. While in that country at Lyons, and when only twenty years of age, he heard of the death of his uncle at Zurich, and went at once to that city to obtain the papers and effects of the deceased. From the papers he found that Laelius had assisted at a conference of heretics at Vicenza in 1547, in which the destruction of Christianity was resolved upon, and where resolutions were adopted for the renewal of Arianism – a system of false doctrine calculated to sap the very foundations of existing Faith by attacking the Trinity and the Incarnation. Feller, an authority of considerable weight, in his reference to this conference, says: “In the assembly of Vicenza they agreed upon the means of destroying the religion of Jesus Christ, by forming a society which by its progressive successes brought on, towards the end of the eighteenth century, an almost general apostasy. When the Republic of Venice became informed of this conspiracy, it seized upon Julian Trevisano and Francis de Rugo, and strangled them. Ochinus and the others saved themselves. The society thus dispersed became only the more dangerous, and it is that which is known today under the name of Freemasons.” For this information Feller refers us to a work entitled Le Voile Levé, by the Abbé Le Franc, a victim of the reign of terror in 1792. The latter tells us that the conspirators whom the severity of the Venetian Republic had scattered, and who were Ochinus, Laelius Socinus, Peruta, Gentilis, Jacques Chiari, Francis Lenoir, Darius Socinus, Alicas, and the Abbé Leonard, carried their poison with them, and caused it to bear fruits of death in all parts of Europe. The success of Faustus Socinus in spreading his uncle’s theories was enormous. His aim was not only to destroy the Church, but to raise up another temple into which any enemy of orthodoxy might freely enter. In this temple every heterodox belief might be held. It was called Christian but was without Christian faith, or hope, or love. It was simply an astutely planned system for propagating the ideas of its founders; for a fundamental part of the policy of Socinus, and one in which he well instructed his disciples, was to associate either to Unitarianism or to the confederation formed at Vicenza, the rich, the learned, the powerful, and the influential of the world. He feigned an equal esteem for Trinitarians and anti-Trinitarians, for Lutherans and Calvinists. He praised the undertakings of all against the Church of Rome, and working upon their intense hatred for Catholicism, caused them to forget their many “isms” in order to unite them for the destruction of the common enemy. When that should be effected, it would be time to consider a system agreeable to all. Until then, unity of action inspired by hatred of the Church should reign amongst them.
He therefore wished that all his adherents should, whether Lutheran or Calvinist, treat one another as brothers; and hence his disciples have been called at various times “United Brethren”, “Polish Brothers”, “Moravian Brothers”, “Brother Masons”, and finally “Freemasons”. Mgr. Segur informs us, on the authorities before quoted, as well as upon that of Bergier, and the learned author of a work entitled, Les Franc-Maçons Ecrasés – the Abbé Lerudan – printed at Amsterdam, as early as the year 1747, that the real secret of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ consisted, even then, in disbelief in the Divinity of Christ, and a determination to replace that doctrine, which is the very foundation of Christianity, by Naturalism or Rationalism. Socinus having established his Sect in Poland, sent emissaries to preach his doctrines stealthily in Germany, Holland, and England. In Germany, Protestants and Catholics united to unmask them. In Holland they blended with the Anabaptists, and in England they found partisans amongst the Independents and various other sects into which the people were divided.
The Abbé Lefranc believes (Le Voile Levé, Lyons, 1821), that Oliver Cromwell was a Socinian, and that he introduced Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ into England. Certainly, Cromwell’s sympathies were not for the Church favoured by the monarch he supplanted, and were much with the Independents. If he was a Socinian, we can easily understand how the secret society of Vicenza could have attractions for one of his anti-Catholic and ambitious sentiments. He gave its members in England, as Mgr. Segur tells us, the title of Freemasons, and invented the allegory of the Temple of Solomon, now so much used by Masonry of every kind, and which meant the original state of man supposed to be a commonwealth of equality with a vague Deism as its religion. This temple, destroyed by Christ for the Christian order, was to be restored by Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ after Christ and the Christian order should be obliterated by conspiracy and revolution. The state of Nature was the “Hiram” whose murder Masonry was to avenge; and which, having previously removed Christ, was to resuscitate Hiram, by rebuilding the temple of Nature as it had been before.
Mgr. Segur, moreover, connects modern Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ with the Jєωs and Templars, as well as with Socinus. There are reasons which lead me to think that he is right in doing so. The Jєωs for many centuries previous to the Reformation had formed secret societies for their own protection and for the destruction of the Christianity which persecuted them, and which they so much hated. The rebuilding of the Temple of Solomon was the dream of their lives. It is unquestionable that they wished to make common cause with other bodies of persecuted religionists. They had special reason to welcome with joy such heretics as were cast off by Catholicism. It is, therefore, not at all improbable that they admitted into their secret conclaves some at least of the discontented Templars, burning for revenge upon those who dispossessed and suppressed the Order. That fact would account for the curious combination of Jєωιѕн and conventual allusions to be found in modern Masonry.2 Then, as to its British History, we have seen that numbers of the secret brotherhood of Socinus made their way to England and Scotland, where they found rich friends, and, perhaps, confederates. I have, therefore, no doubt but that the Abbé Lefranc is correct when he says that Cromwell was connected with them. At least, before he succeeded in his designs, he had need of some such secret society, and would, no doubt, be glad to use it for his purposes. But it is not so clear that Cromwell was the first, as Lefranc thinks, to blend that brotherhood with the real Freemasons. The ancient guild of working masons had existed in Great Britain and in Europe for many centuries previous to his time They were like every other guild of craftsmen – a body formed for mutual protection and trade offices. But they differed from other tradespeople in this, that from their duties they were more cosmopolitan, and knew more of the ceremonies of religion at a period when the arts of reading and writing were not very generally understood. They travelled over every portion of England and Scotland, and frequently crossed the Channel, to work at the innumerable religious houses, castles, fortifications, great abbeys, churches and cathedrals which arose over the face of Christendom in such number and splendour in the middle and succeeding ages. To keep away interlopers, to sustain a uniform rate of wages, to be known amongst strangers, and, above all, amongst foreigners of their craft, signs were necessary; and these signs could be of value only in proportion to the secrecy with which they were kept within the craft itself. They had signs for those whom they accepted as novices, for the companion mason or journeyman, and for the masters of the craft. In ages when a trade was transmitted from father to son, and formed a kind of family inheritance, we can very well imagine that its secrets were guarded with much jealousy, and that its adepts were enjoined not to communicate them to anyone, not even to their wives, lest they become known to outsiders. The masons were, if we except the clockmakers and Jєωellers, the most skilled artisans of Europe. By the cunning of their hands they knew how to make the rough stone speak out the grand conceptions of the architects of the middle ages; and often, the delicate foliage and flowers and statuary of the fanes they built, remind us of the most perfect eras of Greek and Roman sculpture. So closely connected with religion and religious architecture as were these “Brothers Masons”, “Friars”, “Fra”, or “Free Masons”, they shared to a large extent in the favour of the Popes. They obtained many and valuable charters. But they degenerated. The era of the so-called Reformation was a sad epoch for them. It was an era of Church demolition rather than of church building. Wherever the blight of Protestantism fell, the beauty and stateliness of Church architecture became dwarfed, stunted, and degraded, whenever it was not utterly destroyed. The need of brothers Masons had passed, and succeeding Masons began to admit men to their guilds who won a living otherwise than by the craft. In Germany their confraternity had become a cover for the reformers, and Socinus, seeing it as a means for advancing his Sect – a method for winning adepts and progressing stealthily without attracting the notice of Catholic government – would desire no doubt to use it for his purposes. We have to this day the statute the genuine Freemasons of Strasbourg framed in 1462, and the same revised as late as 1563, but in them there is absolutely nothing of heresy or hostility to the Church. But there is a curious docuмent called the Charter of Cologne dated 1535, which, if it be genuine, proves to us that there existed at that early period a body of Freemasons having principles identical with those professed by the Masons of our own day. It is to be found in the archives of the Mother Lodge of Amsterdam which also preserves the act of its own constitution under the date of 1519. It reveals the existence of lodges of kindred intent in London, Edinburgh, Vienna, Amsterdam, Paris, Lyons, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Madrid, Venice, Goriz, Koenigsberg, Brussels, Dantzig, Magdeburg, Bremen and Cologne; and it bears the signatures of well-known enemies of the Church at that period, namely – Hermanus or Herman de Weir, the immoral and heretical Archbishop-Elector of Cologne, placed for his misdeeds under the ban of the Empire; De Coligny, leader of the Huguenots of France; Jacob d’Anville, Prior of the Augustinians of Cologne, who incurred the same reproaches as Archbishop Herman; Melancthon, the Reformer; Nicholas Van Noot, Carlton, Bruce, Upson, Banning, Vireaux, Schroeder, Hoffman, Nobel, De la Torre, Doria, Uttenbow, Falck, Huissen, Wormer. These names reveal both the country and the celebrity of all the men who signed the docuмent. It was, possibly, a society like theirs, which the Venetian Government broke up and scattered in 1547, for we find distinct mention of a lodge existing at Venice in 1535. However this may be, Freemason lodges existed in Scotland from the time of the Reformation. One of them is referred to in the Charter of Cologne, and doubtless had many affiliations. In Scotland, as in other Catholic countries, the Templars were suppressed; and there, if nowhere else, that Order had the guilds of working masons under its special protection. It is therefore possible, as some say, that the knights coalesced with these Masons, and protected their own machinations with the aid of the secrets of the craft. But while this and all else stated regarding the connection of the Templars with Masonry may be true, there is no real evidence that it is so. Much is said about the building of the Temple of Solomon; and that the Hiram killed, and whose death the craft is to avenge, means James Molay, the Grand Master, executed in the barbarous manner of his age for supposed complicity in the crimes with which the Templars were everywhere charged. There is tall talk about such things in modern Masonry, and a great deal of the absurd and puerile ritual in which the sect indulges when conferring the higher grades, is supposed to have reference to them. But the Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ with which we have to deal, however connected in its origin with the Templars, with Socinus, with the conspirators of Cologne, or those of Vicenza, or with Cromwell, received its modern characteristics from Elias Ashmole, the Antiquary, and the provider, if not the founder, of the Oxford Museum. Ashmole was an alchemist and an astrologer, and imbued consequently with a love for the jargon and mysticism of that strange body so busied about the philosopher’s stone and other utopias. The existing lodges of the Freemasons had an inexpressible charm for Ashmole, and in 1646 he, together with Colonel Mainwaring, became members of the craft. He perfected it, added various mystic symbols to those already in use and gave partly a scriptural, partly an Egyptian form to its jargon and ceremonies. The Rosecroix, Rosicrucian degree, a society formed after the idea of Bacon’s New Atlantis, appeared; and the various grades of companion, master, secret master, perfect master, elect, and Irish master, were either remodelled or newly formed, as we know them now. Charles I was decapitated in 1649, and Ashmole being a Royalist to the core, soon turned English Masonry from the purposes of Cromwell and his party, and made the craft, which was always strong in Scotland, a means to upset the Government of the Protector and to bring back the Stuarts. Now “Hiram” became the murdered Charles, who was to be avenged instead of James Molay, and the reconstruction of the Temple meant the restoration of the exiled House of Stuart. On the accession of Charles II the craft was, of course, not treated with disfavour; and when the misfortunes of James II drove him from the throne, the partisans of the House of Stuart had renewed recourse to it as a means of secret organization against the enemy.
To bring back the Pretender, the Jacobites formed a Scotch and an English and an Irish constitution. The English constitution embraced the Mother Lodge of York and that of London, which latter separated from York, and with a new spring of action started into life as the Grand Lodge of London in 1717. The Jacobite nobles brought it to France chiefly to aid their attempts in favour of the Stuarts. They opened a lodge called the “Amity and Fraternity”, in Dunkirk, in 1721, and in 1725 the Lord Derwentwater opened the famous Mother Lodge of Paris. Masonry soon spread to Holland (1730), to Germany in 1736, to Ireland in 1729, and afterwards to Italy, Spain and Europe generally. All its lodges were placed under the Grand Lodge of England, and remained so for many years.
I mention these facts and dates in order to let you see that precisely at the period when Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ was thus extending abroad, the Infidelity, which had been introduced by Bayle and openly advocated by Voltaire, was being disseminated largely amongst the corrupt nobility of France and of Europe generally. It was, as we have already seen, a period of universal licence in morals with the great in every country, and the members of the Grand Lodge in England were generally men of easy virtue whose example was agreeable to Continental libertines.
Voltaire found that the Masonry to which he had been affiliated in London was a capital means of diffusing his doctrines among the courtiers, the men of letters and the public of France. It was like himself, the incarnation of hypocrisy and lying. It came recommended by an appearance of philanthropy and of religion. Ashmole gave it the open Bible, together with the square and compass. It called the world to witness that it believed in God, “the great Architect of the Universe.” It had “an open eye”, which may be taken for God’s all-seeing providence, or for the impossibility of a sworn Mason escaping his fate if he revealed the secrets of the craft or failed to obey the orders he was selected to carry out. It made members known to each other, just as did the ancient craft, in every country, and professed to take charge of the orphans and widows of deceased brethren who could not provide for them. But, in its secret conclaves and in its ascending degrees, it had means to tell the victim whom it could count upon, that the “Architect” meant a circle, a nothing;3 that the open Bible was the universe; and that the square and compass was simply the fitness of things – the means to make all men “fraternal, equal and free” in some impossible utopia it promised but never gave. In the recesses of its lodges, the political conspirator found the men and the means to arrive at his ends in security. Those who ambitioned office found there the means of advancement. The old spirit breathed into the fraternity by Socinus, and nourished so well by the heretical libertines of the England and Germany of the seventeenth century, and perfected by the Infidels of the eighteenth, was master in all its lodges. Banquets, ribald songs and jests, revelling in sin, constituted from the beginning a leading feature in its life. Lodges became the secure home for the roué, the spendthrift, the man of broken fortunes, the Infidel, and the depraved of the upper classes. Such attractive centres of sin, therefore, spread over Europe with great rapidity. They were encouraged not only by Voltaire, but by his whole host of Atheistic writers, philosophers, encyclopaedists, revolutionists, and rakes. The scoundrels of Europe found congenial employment in them; and before twenty years elapsed from their first introduction the lodges were a power in Europe, formidable by the union which subsisted between them all, and by the wealth, social position, and unscrupulousness of those who formed their brotherhood. The principles fashionable – and indeed alone tolerated – in them all, before long, were the principles of Voltaire and of his school. This led in time to the Union and “Illuminism” of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.
V
THE UNION AND “ILLUMINISM” OF Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ
WITH the aid of Voltaire, and of his party, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ rapidly spread amongst the higher classes of France and wherever else in Europe the influence of the French Infidels extended. It soon after obtained immense power of union and propagandism. In France and everywhere else it had an English, a Scotch, and a local obedience. These had separate constitutions and officers, even separate grades, but all were identical in essence and in aim. A brother in one was a brother in all. However, it seemed to the leaders that more unity was needed, and aided by the adhesion of the Duke of Chartres, subsequently better known as the Duke of Orleans, the infamous Philippe-Egalité, who was Grand Master of the Scotch Masonic Body in France, the French Masons in the English obedience desiring independence of the Mother Lodge of England, separated and elected him the first Grand Master of the since celebrated Grand Orient of France. Two years after this, the execrable “Androgyne” lodges for women, called “Lodges of Adoption” were established, and had as Grand Mistress over them all the Duchess of Bourbon, sister of Egalité. The Infidels, by extending these lodges for women, obtained an immense amount of influence, which they otherwise never could attain. They thus invaded the domestic circle of the Court of France and of every Court in Europe. Thus, too, the royal edicts, the decrees of Clement XII and Benedict XIV against Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, and the efforts of conscientious officers, were rendered completely inoperative. After the death of Voltaire, the extension of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ became alarming; but no State effort could then stop its progress. It daily grew more powerful and more corrupt. It began already to extend its influence into every department of state. Promotion in the army, in the navy, in the public service, in the law, and even to the fat benefices “in commendam” of the Church, became impossible without its aid1; and at this precise juncture, when the political fortunes of France were, for many reasons, growing desperate, two events occurred to make the already general and corrupt Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ still more formidable. These were the advent of the Illuminism of Saint Martin in France, and that of Adam Weishaupt in Germany, and the increased corruption introduced principally by means of women-Freemasons.
A Portuguese Jєω, named Martinez Pasqualis, was the first to introduce Illuminism into the Lodge of Lyons, and his system was afterwards perfected in wickedness by Saint Martin, from whom French Illuminism took its name. Illuminism meant the extreme extent of immorality, Atheism, anarchy, levelling, and bƖσσdshɛd, to which the principles of Masonry could be carried. It meant a universal conspiracy against the Church and established order. It constituted a degree of advancement for all the lodges, and powerfully aided to make them the centres of revolutionary intrigue and of political manipulation which they soon became in the hands of men at once sunk in Atheism and moral corruption.
An idea of these lodges may be obtained from a description given of that of Ermanonville, by M. Le Marquis de Lefroi, in Dictionnaire des Erreurs Sociales, quoted by Deschamps, vol. ii, page 93.
“It is known”, he says, “that the Chateau de Ermanonville belonging to the Sieur Girardin, about ten leagues from Paris, was a famous haunt of Illuminism. It is known that there, near the tomb of Jean-Jacques, under the pretext of bringing men back to the age of nature, reigned the most horrible dissoluteness of morals. Nothing can equal the turpitude of morals which reigns amongst that horde of Ermanonville. Every woman admitted to the mysteries became common to the brothers, and was delivered up to the chance or to the choice of these true ‘Adamites’.” Barruel in his Mémoires sur le Jacobinisme, vol. iv. p. 334, says “that M. Leseure, the father of the hero of La Vendée, having been affiliated to a lodge of this kind, and having, in obedience to the promptings of conscience, abandoned it, was soon after poisoned.” He himself declared to the Marquis de Montron that he fell a victim to “that infamous horde of the Illuminati.”
The Illuminism of Saint Martin was simply an advance in the intensity of immorality, Atheism, secrecy, and terror, which already reigned in the lodges of France. It planned a deeper means of revolution and destruction. It became in its hidden depths a lair in which the Atheists of the period could mature their plans for the overthrow of the existing order of things to their own best advantage. It gave itself very captivating names. Its members were “Knights of Beneficence”, “Good Templars”, “Knights of St. John”, &c. They numbered, however, amongst them, the most active, daring, and unscrupulous members of Masonry. They set themselves at work to dominate over and to control the entire body. They had no system, any more than any other sort of Masons, to give the world instead of that which they determined to pull down. The state of nature, goods and the sexes in common, no God, and instead of God a hatred for everything sustaining the idea of God, formed about the sum total of the happiness which they desired to see reign in a world where people should be reduced to a level resembling that of wild cattle in the American prairies. This was the Illumination they destined for humanity; yet such was the infatuation inspired by their immoral and strange doctrines that nobles, princes, and monarchs of the period, including Frederick II of Prussia and the silly Joseph II of Austria, admitted to a part of their secrets, were the tools and the dupes, and even the accomplices, of these infamous conspirators.
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Oh man... how far has the neoSSPX theology program deteriorated?
This theme seems related to the same "divine ignorance" garbage Bp. Fellay is espousing. "But IF... he is a good Jєω or a good freemason".
For Papal Encyclicals, the condemnation of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ exceeds any other topic!
This is our "hour of darkness" and the Freemasons are closing in on us.
So, why is Father doing this?
Because of Menzingen's newthinking, which is the modernistic Vatican II thinking. There's no enemies of the Church anymore but only friends. We're all friends and there's always a sweetie-pie solution -- except for the naaasty Naaaaazis and Bishop Williamson and us friends of the Vetero-SSPX of course.
The general superior's first assistant Fr. Niklaus Pfluger "nicely" demonstrated this newthinking in the beginning of his unwise 2011 letter to Bishop Williamson. Bold by me to highlight the part which could answer your question.
Letter from Fr Niklaus Pfluger to Bishop Williamson (English translation) (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Fr-Niklaus-Pflugers-letter-to-Bishop-Williamson)
1 January 2011
Your Excellency, Dear Bishop Williamson,
For months I have been meaning to write to you in order to bring up everything so to speak incomprehensible and also false in the things you have been saying over the last few years. I put it off since you never brought up arguments and obviously feel personally hurt – rather unusual for a free-thinking man. But after I could not help reading in your latest “Eleison Comments” that “World War III may not be far off”, I am now writing before time becomes short, because one never knows when time will run out.
This prophecy of yours took my mind back to the after-dinner speeches at the Episcopal Consecrations of 1988, After the main event all four newly consecrated bishops said a few words. Bishop Tissier as usual was very theological and dogmatic. Bishop de Galarreta was short and discrete. Bishop Fellay was pastoral and balanced. But you were principally concerned with war. Perhaps you were already thinking of World War III when you cried out to the assembly, “It’s war, it’s war !”. At that time it was still the Russians who were due to attack. It would be quite a task to count up all the times in the last 22 years that you have prophesied with precise dates the Third World War and the Chastisement. At least a dozen times for sure. A task also to work out why you have never asked yourself the question whether your forecasting arises from objective analysis and not rather from subjective utopianism.
Alas, I know you do not ask yourself such questions. Nor do you ask why I, and with me Menzingen and almost the entire Society of St Pius X and the world while we are about it, why we merely shake our heads and are simply disappointed. (I attach extracts from two e-mails, the first coming from a former pupil of yours, the second from a German town mayor.) For you it is clear. Always somebody else is to blame. Everybody else is clueless, blind to reality, agents of some organization or other, be it Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ or the Mossad or the CIA, most recently and emphatically “the Jєωs” – the list is long. In brief, anybody who disagrees with you is either stupid or wicked or both. To any of the people who have rejected your constant warnings of war and your crude political and economic theories, and who have criticized you for them – there are many such people, and some have even been offended -- have you ever apologized ? Have you apologized to one single one ? Would you ever be capable of saying, “I was wrong” ?
[...]
Interestingly, just two years after that letter we've got "Cuba 2.0" in the middle-east, soon "Black Friday 2.0" and know that the good bishop's warning against a world-war and economical collapse was and still is fully justified. Also we know by now (or since the Krahgate) that Bp Fellay's and Fr. Pfluger's adviser Max Krah actually is a Judaizer with good connections to the Mossad. These few examples make that letter even stranger. You, Incred, wrote: Are we about to soon find out their are some neoSSPX freemasons? Some Vetero-SSPX priests affirm your question.
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Interestingly, just two years after that letter we've got "Cuba 2.0" in the middle-east, soon "Black Friday 2.0"
What are Cuba & Black Friday 2.0?
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Fr. Themann's argument can be used to justify all sins. Would he buy his own argument from a penitent in the confessional? This is convoluted liberal nonsense.
Yes and this is very sad - - it is no wonder SSPX made him a seminary professor.
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I think people are making too big of a deal about this. Granted that Fr. Themann could have made better distinctions, like between culpable and inculpable ignorance, and he could have said that, objectively speaking, freemasons are going to hell, but to say that he is promoting Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ amongst Catholics is just not supported by what he said.
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I think people are making too big of a deal about this. Granted that Fr. Themann could have made better distinctions, like between culpable and inculpable ignorance, and he could have said that, objectively speaking, freemasons are going to hell, but to say that he is promoting Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ amongst Catholics is just not supported by what he said.
While I agree he did not promote Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, he did not make it clear that being one is a sin whether the freemason knows it or not.
Instead, the message that got through was they do not sin because they do not know it is a sin - either on purpose or through his own ignorance, he neglected to add: "which means hell is full of a lot of ignorant people who sinned without knowing they were sinning."
Either way, I do not remember ever hearing such a thing from an SSPX "official" since the SSPX began - what he said was, IMO, in harmony with the thinking of new SSPX.
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Well, only Catholics necessarily sin by being involved in masonry. Being a low-level freemason (which is what Themann seems to be talking about, since he's talking about ignorance) is not a crime against the natural order. If a non-Catholic joins up and just wears the hat and throws candy during the parade entirely oblivious to what masonry is all about (as the majority of masons are low ranking, and many actually are ignorant that it's anything more than an after school club for grown men that gives money to charity) he can't be guilty of a sin because, well, he's a oblivious-- but also because non-Catholics aren't obliged to follow Church law. It's like saying a protestant sins by not fasting and abstaining on the days appointed.
This is all he seemed to be saying. No sense in getting too excited about this strawman. It's at the same conference in St Mary's, there's a lot else wrong with it.
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Interestingly, just two years after that letter we've got "Cuba 2.0" in the middle-east, soon "Black Friday 2.0"
What are Cuba & Black Friday 2.0?
Sorry for not having made it clearer; I used Internet "slang" with the "2.0" word meaning version 2 of something (web 2.0 etc), where version 2 of course is bigger, more colourful, etc. than the original.
The current Middle-East crisis (Syria) is in reality a proxy war between Russia and USA/Israel, and it's already comparable to the Cuba crisis which nearly ended in a nuclear world war. Just this time it's even bigger a thread because of bigger weapons and more globalism.
And for Black Friday: our current financial crisis has the potential for another stock market crash, just totally global this time. (The well known Mr. Faber recently said in an interview with the US magazine "Barron's" that in one to two months there would be a stock market crash.)
Back on-topic: I wanted to demonstrate that what Bishop Williamson prognoses since years, is today more probable than ever before, that however the modernistic Newthinking of the Neo-SSPX (everything is sweet, and the hills are filled with the sound of music) prevents the Neo-SSPX clerics from seeing these relations and ultimately seeing the reality. And so what Fr. Pfluger wrote in his unwise letter two years ago, is also related to what Fr. Themann says today.
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What is Fr. Themann's position: Is he a Theologian, Professor, etc? Should he have known better?
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Well, only Catholics necessarily sin by being involved in masonry.
It is a mortal sin to belong to any false religion including Masonry. It kills the soul, and God will not dwell there.
Being a low-level freemason (which is what Themann seems to be talking about, since he's talking about ignorance) is not a crime against the natural order. If a non-Catholic joins up and just wears the hat and throws candy during the parade entirely oblivious to what masonry is all about (as the majority of masons are low ranking, and many actually are ignorant that it's anything more than an after school club for grown men that gives money to charity) he can't be guilty of a sin because, well, he's a oblivious-- but also because non-Catholics aren't obliged to follow Church law. It's like saying a protestant sins by not fasting and abstaining on the days appointed.This is all he seemed to be saying.
Totally wrong. Again, it is a false religion read above. Ignorance does not excuse anyone from sin. That "ignorance excuse for sin" is a false teaching that has been repeated so much in our times that the vast majority of Catholics (including this Fr. Thiemann) believe it today. It is as if God's grace has nothing to do with our good actions, when it is the opposite, without Him we can do NOTHING good. These so-called ignorant people are not ignorant to God's actual grace which is constantly TEACHING THEM what is right and wrong. Unless, God has abandoned them to their sins
No, ignorance does not excuse a mason from the mortal sin of being a mason. Fr. Thiemann is wrong, like many others who have been taught the same about Protestants, Jєωs, and other false religions.
"Those who perish do not receive the love of truth in order that they might be saved. Therefore, God will send them the operation of error, to believe lying, so that all may be judged who have not believed the truth but have consented to iniquity". (II Thesss. 2:10-11)
"The excuse of ignorance is denied those who know the commandments of God, but neither will those who do not know be without punishment. "For, as many as have sinned outside the law shall also perish outside the law" (Romans 2:12). Without faith in Christ, no man can be delivered; therefore, they will be judged in such a way that they perish. "The servant who does not know his Lord's will, and who commits things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes; whereas, the servant who knows his Lord's will, shall be beaten with many stripes" (Lk. 12:47 48). Observe here that it is a more serious matter for a man to sin with knowledge than in ignorance. And yet, we must not take refuge on this account to shades of ignorance, to find our excuse therein. Even ignorance which belongs to them who are, as it were, simply ignorant does not excuse anyone so as to exempt him from eternal fire, even were his failure to believe the result of not having heard at all what he should believe. It was not said without reason: "Pour out Thy wrath upon the nations who have not known Thee" (Psalm 78:6), and "He shall come from Heaven in a flame of fire to take vengeance on those who do not know God" (Thess.111:7 8).
(St. Augustine)
I have many, even better quotes, but not the time to post them now.
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By the way, in the first three levels of masonry, the Blue Lodge, where the vast majority of Masons belong, they drink blood mixed with their drinks at the bar (if I know it they know it), and participate in fornication and other activities. They are not as innocent as Fr. Thiemann, thinks them to be. This highlights to me the fact that he is just a kid, just fresh out of a defective seminary.
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Pope Innocent II
The Errors of Peter Abelard (Condemned)
10. That they have not sinned who being ignorant have crucified Christ, and that whatever is done through ignorance must not be considered as sin. Condemned (Denz 377)
"If, therefore, a person be ignorant of what is commanded or forbidden because he has not studied the law of God, his ignorance does not excuse him from sin". (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
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A good Catholic wouldn't accept the oaths and religious indifferentism of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, whether or not it had been condemned by the Church.
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Oh man... how far has the neoSSPX theology program deteriorated?
This theme seems related to the same "divine ignorance" garbage Bp. Fellay is espousing. "But IF... he is a good Jєω or a good freemason".
For Papal Encyclicals, the condemnation of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ exceeds any other topic!
This is our "hour of darkness" and the Freemasons are closing in on us.
So, why is Father doing this?
Because of Menzingen's newthinking, which is the modernistic Vatican II thinking. There's no enemies of the Church anymore but only friends. We're all friends and there's always a sweetie-pie solution -- except for the naaasty Naaaaazis and Bishop Williamson and us friends of the Vetero-SSPX of course.
The general superior's first assistant Fr. Niklaus Pfluger "nicely" demonstrated this newthinking in the beginning of his unwise 2011 letter to Bishop Williamson. Bold by me to highlight the part which could answer your question.
Letter from Fr Niklaus Pfluger to Bishop Williamson (English translation) (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Fr-Niklaus-Pflugers-letter-to-Bishop-Williamson)
1 January 2011
Your Excellency, Dear Bishop Williamson,
For months I have been meaning to write to you in order to bring up everything so to speak incomprehensible and also false in the things you have been saying over the last few years. I put it off since you never brought up arguments and obviously feel personally hurt – rather unusual for a free-thinking man. But after I could not help reading in your latest “Eleison Comments” that “World War III may not be far off”, I am now writing before time becomes short, because one never knows when time will run out.
This prophecy of yours took my mind back to the after-dinner speeches at the Episcopal Consecrations of 1988, After the main event all four newly consecrated bishops said a few words. Bishop Tissier as usual was very theological and dogmatic. Bishop de Galarreta was short and discrete. Bishop Fellay was pastoral and balanced. But you were principally concerned with war. Perhaps you were already thinking of World War III when you cried out to the assembly, “It’s war, it’s war !”. At that time it was still the Russians who were due to attack. It would be quite a task to count up all the times in the last 22 years that you have prophesied with precise dates the Third World War and the Chastisement. At least a dozen times for sure. A task also to work out why you have never asked yourself the question whether your forecasting arises from objective analysis and not rather from subjective utopianism.
Alas, I know you do not ask yourself such questions. Nor do you ask why I, and with me Menzingen and almost the entire Society of St Pius X and the world while we are about it, why we merely shake our heads and are simply disappointed. (I attach extracts from two e-mails, the first coming from a former pupil of yours, the second from a German town mayor.) For you it is clear. Always somebody else is to blame. Everybody else is clueless, blind to reality, agents of some organization or other, be it Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ or the Mossad or the CIA, most recently and emphatically “the Jєωs” – the list is long. In brief, anybody who disagrees with you is either stupid or wicked or both. To any of the people who have rejected your constant warnings of war and your crude political and economic theories, and who have criticized you for them – there are many such people, and some have even been offended -- have you ever apologized ? Have you apologized to one single one ? Would you ever be capable of saying, “I was wrong” ?
[...]
Interestingly, just two years after that letter we've got "Cuba 2.0" in the middle-east, soon "Black Friday 2.0" and know that the good bishop's warning against a world-war and economical collapse was and still is fully justified. Also we know by now (or since the Krahgate) that Bp Fellay's and Fr. Pfluger's adviser Max Krah actually is a Judaizer with good connections to the Mossad. These few examples make that letter even stranger. You, Incred, wrote: Are we about to soon find out their are some neoSSPX freemasons? Some Vetero-SSPX priests affirm your question.
Thank you for the surgical analysis in response to my questions Ethelred.
There are so many things happening in the neoSSPX in recent years, it is hard to keep up and connect all the dots.
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I think people are making too big of a deal about this. Granted that Fr. Themann could have made better distinctions, like between culpable and inculpable ignorance, and he could have said that, objectively speaking, freemasons are going to hell, but to say that he is promoting Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ amongst Catholics is just not supported by what he said.
But he's focusing on giving dumb freemasons a "pass".
That topic is so unreal and fleetingly insignificant.
In effect, he's moving the topic of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, the wrecking team of the Catholic Church, to sandy ground.
Instead, he should be warning us about the evils of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, but nowadays that is politically incorrect in the neoSSPX.
Only dinosaur "uranium" bishops still do that.
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All I know is that now I can never respect Fr. Daniel Themann ever again. I cannot take him seriously anymore. :cheers:
He must not know the role of a priest as the guardian of the flock. Something is wrong with him. He does not seem like a good shepherd but a hireling.
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All I know is that now I can never respect Fr. Daniel Themann ever again. I cannot take him seriously anymore. :cheers:
He must not know the role of a priest as the guardian of the flock. Something is wrong with him. He does not seem like a good shepherd but a hireling.
That's a good point.
This is an example of how every priest in the neoSSPX is exposing themselves to Rahnerite logic.
Their priesthoods are in jeopardy.
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FR. THEMAN, IS OFF HIS ROCKER ! FREEMASONARY IS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO CHRISTIANITY. FIRST OF ALL THEY TAKE BLOOD OATHS, THEY BELIEVE AT A CERTAIN DEGREE THAT THEY ARE ENLIGHTENED , ILUUMINED, THEY BELIEVE IN THE THIRD EYE, ANYONE THAT HAS STUDIED EVEN A LITTLE ABOUT OCCULTISM KNOWS ABOUT THE THIRD EYE IN THE FOREHEAD. THEY HAVE INFILTRATED EVERY WALK OF LIFE ALL ORGANIZATIONS ALL , UNIONS, ALL GOVT. ENTITIES AND RELIGIOUS. THEIR ULTIMATE GOAL IS A ONE WORLD RELIGION, GOVERNMENT, AND MONETARY SYSTEM. ALL WITHOUT THE CHRISTIAN GOD. A MASONS FIRST ALLEGIANCE IS TO HIS FELLOW MASON ABOVE THE GOOD OF HIS GOVERNMENT, FAITH, OR EVEN FAMILY. THEY COVERUP FOR EACH OTHER, IN LAW , BUSINESS ETC..THEY WILL TAKE AN OATH IN COURT,BUT BREAK THAT OATH IF IT AT ALL ENDANGERS A FELLOW MASON. THE " G' YOU SEE BETWEEN THE COMPASS AND RULE OF THE FREEMASONS STANDS FOR THE GENERATIVE PROCESS IN A MAN. THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT, TO MASONS IS A PHALLIC SYMBOL, THEY DECORATE TONS OF CEMETARY'S THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY. FREMASON'S GOD, IS LUCIFER, ALBERT PIKE CONSIDERED THE AMERICAN pope of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ HAS WRITTEN A MASONRY BIBLE CALLED MORALS AND DOGMA, IN THAT BOOK HE SAYS LUCIFER IS GOD. ALL OF OUR PRESIDENTS HAVE BEEN SWORN IN WITH A MASONIC BIBLE, A JEFFERSONIAN BIBLE THE NAME OF "JESUS " HAS BEEN TAKEN OUT OF IT. IF YOU JOIN Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ YOUR DANCING WITH THE DEVIL,AND POSSIBLY SENDING YOURSELF AND OTHERS YOU INFLUENCE TO HELL. FR. THEMAN NEEDS TO DO A LITTLE MORE RESEARCH, AND I'M TOLD SOME OF THE YOUNGER PRIESTS IN PIUS X ARE BEING TOLD MASONRY'S OKAY. ONCE YOUR IN DEEP WITH THEM IT BECOMES HARDER TO GET OUT . THEY ARE GREAT ABOUT USING BLACKMAIL TO GET WHAT THEY REQUIRE ACCOMPLISHED. FR. LUIGI VILLA INVESTIGATED ECCLESIASTICAL Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ IN THE CHURCH, HE DIED A YEAR AGO. IN HIS BOOKLETS HE HAS DOcuмENTED RECENT POPES THAT WERE MASONS , THAT KIND OF EXPLAINS WHY THE CHURCH IS IN A MESS.
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Well, only Catholics necessarily sin by being involved in masonry. Being a low-level freemason (which is what Themann seems to be talking about, since he's talking about ignorance) is not a crime against the natural order. If a non-Catholic joins up and just wears the hat and throws candy during the parade entirely oblivious to what masonry is all about (as the majority of masons are low ranking, and many actually are ignorant that it's anything more than an after school club for grown men that gives money to charity) he can't be guilty of a sin because, well, he's a oblivious-- but also because non-Catholics aren't obliged to follow Church law. It's like saying a protestant sins by not fasting and abstaining on the days appointed.
This is all he seemed to be saying. No sense in getting too excited about this strawman. It's at the same conference in St Mary's, there's a lot else wrong with it.
This explains alot. You are defending the Masons???!!!!
They are intellects like you. They know it is against Catholic Church teachings. You even try to justify free masonry.
The Masons are doing more then passing out candy at parades. They hold secret meetings and rituals. They hate the True Catholic Church.
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Archbishop Lefebvre wrote a book called Against the Heresies which explains the evils of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.
Page 69, 71, 72 ,74. 99 106. Infact there is much talk about evils of masonry in the book so there is no excuse for any sspx priest or even laity to be ignorant of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. He knew what he was doing.
Anybody who is with the Resistance has read Against the Heresies by Archbishop Lefebvre. He also writes about the Humanum Genus of Pope Leo xiii. Leo makes known the wickedness of masonry.
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We are former novus ordo and our parents taught us that masons kkk were anti catholic.
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Anyone else need anymore reasons why I can't go to Saint Michael's anymore?
:cry:
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Anyone else need anymore reasons why I can't go to Saint Michael's anymore?
:cry:
Is st michaels in Oklahoma?
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No. De Pere, WI. Father Bolduc's old church.
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Is Fr. Themann emblematic of the quality of the typical SSPX seminary professor? If so, Kyrie Eleison!
It is simply tragic that Fr. Themann is the successor to the great warrior-priest, Fr. Bolduc.
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Indeed! Tragic is the correct term!
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Well, only Catholics necessarily sin by being involved in masonry. Being a low-level freemason (which is what Themann seems to be talking about, since he's talking about ignorance) is not a crime against the natural order. If a non-Catholic joins up and just wears the hat and throws candy during the parade entirely oblivious to what masonry is all about (as the majority of masons are low ranking, and many actually are ignorant that it's anything more than an after school club for grown men that gives money to charity) he can't be guilty of a sin because, well, he's a oblivious-- but also because non-Catholics aren't obliged to follow Church law. It's like saying a protestant sins by not fasting and abstaining on the days appointed.
This is all he seemed to be saying. No sense in getting too excited about this strawman. It's at the same conference in St Mary's, there's a lot else wrong with it.
This explains alot. You are defending the Masons???!!!!
They are intellects like you. They know it is against Catholic Church teachings. You even try to justify free masonry.
The Masons are doing more then passing out candy at parades. They hold secret meetings and rituals. They hate the True Catholic Church.
I'm sorry, do you think masons recruit by pitching secret meetings of devious and diabolical nature to get new members? Because they don't. It's all a front. Most low-level masons (which is really most masons) are useful idiots that come on board to volunteer at the children's hospital or help out with the circus, hand out candy at the parade, etc. This is the visible face of masonry, and this is the 'sell' to prospective masons.
People want to think they're doing some kind of good. You'll have a lot more luck with people selling them 'you can join our group and help kids with cancer and be a special part of the community' that trying to sell them 'join our sssssecret sssssociety, help usssss to overthrow the church.'
It's not difficult to understand. The devil dresses in a nice suit and smells like flowers.
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A good Catholic wouldn't accept the oaths and religious indifferentism of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, whether or not it had been condemned by the Church.
I agree.
:applause:
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The ink dried on my last post.
VCR, I'm not defending Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. I'm trying to ensure that people don't look libelous, because the plain fact is that what Fr Themann SAID (what he actually said, in the conference, on video, which is what this thread is about) was: (I have transcribed this from the video
A parishoner asks Fr Themann "Is it ok to be a freemason?"
Fr Themann replies "No," then says, "Just to make sure you're not confused, I will point out probably most people who are freemasons don't know what Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is all about. Obviously Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ tries to keep that kind of thing secret, we all know that. And so, in practice, most people who are freemasons (or at least many) do not know what it's about, so in practice, probably many if not most people who are freemasons don't commit any sin by being a freemason because they're in ignorance, and the organization [of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ] likes to keep them that way."
http://gloria.tv/?media=458915
There is nothing morally objectionable about any of this, it's basic moral teaching. One cannot be culpable for what one is ignorant about.
Now, if you want to contend that many or most people aren't ignorant of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, then you can contend that Fr Themann is wrong inasmuch as he's wrong about the quantity of people who are ignorant of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, but not about the principle about not being guilty for that which one did not know was wrong. But if you contend that, then you also must contend that Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ isn't really a secret society. They're successful precisely because they are a secret society, and are able to maintain a socially respectable face with community and charitable works to mask their Satanic foundation and destination.
The prohibition against joining Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is not part of the natural law. Certainly, if one is to advance in such a way that one becomes part of activities that are against the natural law, then one becomes culpable for those-- but most freemasons (as I mentioned before) are useful idiots to maintain a 'respectable' face for masonry.
There's so much wrong with Themann's conference (not to mention the hilarious about-face performed by HQ immediately afterwards) but this minute of the conference is not objectionable. The ironic part is that he brought it up to show how people will take things out of context and fail to pay attentions to the distinctions-- and that is exactly what is happening with each and every person that is saying that Themann says it's OK to be a freemason, or that he supports Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, etc.
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.
You are excused for having a brainglitch, brainglitch.
When Fr. Themann dutifully sends out his two CD-set
lecture on the marvels of HEBF by way of PRUDENTIAL
TRUTH, we should just know (without being told) that
the lesson only applies to HEBF so he can make
excuses for his latest ploy of disinformation, because
he has the grace of state (never mind we all have the
same grace of state).
And when we would like to take note of the fact that
what an ExSPX priest says one day applies to a
situation that comes up another day, well, we should
always remember to call our DS on the phone and
ask permission to do so because we are not allowed
to T-H-I-N-K on our own. We must always ask
permission from our 'legitimate authority' before we
attempt to think (Cf LG 25). Never mind that our DS
has no jurisdiction. Just never mind. "It's none of
your beeswax!"
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
(http://goldenageofgaia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/wizard-of-oz-man-behind-the-curtain1.jpg)
And beefore you accusee others of accusing Fr. Theemann of
someething aree you so suree theey'ree not accusing you, or
mee? Afteer all, you don't havee to bee a Freemason to bee
doing the work of onee.
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A good Catholic wouldn't accept the oaths and religious indifferentism of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, whether or not it had been condemned by the Church.
I agree.
:applause:
:applause:
:incense:
[/
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!Viva Cristo Rey!
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Sspx hierarchy bashed and persecuted Father Hewko, Father pfeiffer and man others are our holy priests. Bishop Williamson is our Bishop.
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Many faithful were denied communion. Even little children were persecuted.
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You are all liars, liars, and damned liars.
I have been taught by Father Themann. I know him to be a good, humble, and intelligent priest.
He has never defended Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, or taught that it was ok. He made ONE comment in a high school theology class a couple of years ago, that SOME Freemasons may not sin by being freemasons because they are completely ignorant of the true nature of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.
It is absolutely sickening to see all of these fools on Cathinfo bash such a good priest. Have any of you damned Pharisees ever met Fr. Themann? Have you ever been to confession with him? Have you ever even listened to a single sermon or talk he has given? Have you ever attended a Mass he has offered up for your worthless souls?
NO!
But you are quite happy to drag his name through the mud!
Get to a confessional and confess calumniating a priest, or suffer the consequences of hell.
Woah woah woah.
YES, I HAVE spoken to Father Themann, and Father Themann says that Quo Primum is partially disciplinary, and had the gall to ask "What's a missal?" to justify the changes to the missal during the 1960's. Tries to say that the Pope has the authority to change basically anything he likes in the missal and if we don't accept those changes it's "Quo Primum according to (whoever you are supposedly interpreting it the way he doesn't interpret it.)" I know his wishy washiness, and I don't buy it.
The Church teaches such a docuмent as Quo Primum DOES NOT NEED INTERPRETATION, because as an Apostolic Bull, IT IS WHAT IT IS. This is what theologians teach. There's no need to interpret Quo Primum as something other than it says, so he's not just wrong to say that "most freemasons aren't committing a sin by being a freemason," is like saying "I was taught my whole life by my parents that stealing is good, so I don't have any responsibility for theft because I didn't know it was wrong." This has been condemned as an error, and there are citations in this thread ample enough to show it is an error.
I've heard his lectures on the crisis in the SSPX, and his whole argument is garbage. "Speculative truth?" This is not Thomistic philosophy, and his arguments are very dangerous.
So don't accuse those of us criticizing what he's said to be "damned liars" and "going to hell." MY CHURCH WAS HIJACKED BY THE SSPX and we got the "mouthpiece of Menzingen" stationed here when the good Father Bolduc died. It's a travesty.
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Oh man... how far has the neoSSPX theology program deteriorated?
This theme seems related to the same "divine ignorance" garbage Bp. Fellay is espousing. "But IF... he is a good Jєω or a good freemason".
For Papal Encyclicals, the condemnation of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ exceeds any other topic!
This is our "hour of darkness" and the Freemasons are closing in on us.
So, why is Father doing this?
Because of Menzingen's newthinking, which is the modernistic Vatican II thinking. There's no enemies of the Church anymore but only friends. We're all friends and there's always a sweetie-pie solution -- except for the naaasty Naaaaazis and Bishop Williamson and us friends of the Vetero-SSPX of course.
The general superior's first assistant Fr. Niklaus Pfluger "nicely" demonstrated this newthinking in the beginning of his unwise 2011 letter to Bishop Williamson. Bold by me to highlight the part which could answer your question.
Letter from Fr Niklaus Pfluger to Bishop Williamson (English translation) (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Fr-Niklaus-Pflugers-letter-to-Bishop-Williamson)
1 January 2011
Your Excellency, Dear Bishop Williamson,
For months I have been meaning to write to you in order to bring up everything so to speak incomprehensible and also false in the things you have been saying over the last few years. I put it off since you never brought up arguments and obviously feel personally hurt – rather unusual for a free-thinking man. But after I could not help reading in your latest “Eleison Comments” that “World War III may not be far off”, I am now writing before time becomes short, because one never knows when time will run out.
This prophecy of yours took my mind back to the after-dinner speeches at the Episcopal Consecrations of 1988, After the main event all four newly consecrated bishops said a few words. Bishop Tissier as usual was very theological and dogmatic. Bishop de Galarreta was short and discrete. Bishop Fellay was pastoral and balanced. But you were principally concerned with war. Perhaps you were already thinking of World War III when you cried out to the assembly, “It’s war, it’s war !”. At that time it was still the Russians who were due to attack. It would be quite a task to count up all the times in the last 22 years that you have prophesied with precise dates the Third World War and the Chastisement. At least a dozen times for sure. A task also to work out why you have never asked yourself the question whether your forecasting arises from objective analysis and not rather from subjective utopianism.
Alas, I know you do not ask yourself such questions. Nor do you ask why I, and with me Menzingen and almost the entire Society of St Pius X and the world while we are about it, why we merely shake our heads and are simply disappointed. (I attach extracts from two e-mails, the first coming from a former pupil of yours, the second from a German town mayor.) For you it is clear. Always somebody else is to blame. Everybody else is clueless, blind to reality, agents of some organization or other, be it Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ or the Mossad or the CIA, most recently and emphatically “the Jєωs” – the list is long. In brief, anybody who disagrees with you is either stupid or wicked or both. To any of the people who have rejected your constant warnings of war and your crude political and economic theories, and who have criticized you for them – there are many such people, and some have even been offended -- have you ever apologized ? Have you apologized to one single one ? Would you ever be capable of saying, “I was wrong” ?
[...]
Interestingly, just two years after that letter we've got "Cuba 2.0" in the middle-east, soon "Black Friday 2.0" and know that the good bishop's warning against a world-war and economical collapse was and still is fully justified. Also we know by now (or since the Krahgate) that Bp Fellay's and Fr. Pfluger's adviser Max Krah actually is a Judaizer with good connections to the Mossad. These few examples make that letter even stranger. You, Incred, wrote: Are we about to soon find out their are some neoSSPX freemasons? Some Vetero-SSPX priests affirm your question.
And so you accuse Fr. Themann of being of Freemason, without any proof whatsoever?
Confess your calumny and retract your statement, or go to hell. It's that simple
I did not see "Father Themann is a freemason," anywhere in this post. Did you? Where are you getting this from? Talk about an emotional overreaction. She didn't say anything like that.
Would YOU be surprised to see Freemasons in the SSPX? I wouldn't, because long time ago, Bishop Williamson warned against it! "Don't put all your eggs in the SSPX basket." How is the SSPX immune to it? THEY are NOT. I am so glad for the independent priest we had for as long as we did (who incidentally used to be a SSPX priest) because he recognized problems long ago.
She never said anything like that, Brain.
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I know Father Themann. He's a nice guy! Personable, kind, whatever, but he's WRONG.
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A good Catholic wouldn't accept the oaths and religious indifferentism of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, whether or not it had been condemned by the Church.
I agree.
:applause:
:incense:
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Years ago, when my husband was in the work force at a major textile leasing firm, he was approached by the general manager of the entire company. He was told that the way to advance in business would be to join one of the lodges. He never did and consequently his progress in the company was frozen and he was relegated to be a branch manager in one of the struggling offices in "the middle of nowhere city", Texas. He knew what the freemasons were then and as a Catholic he wanted nothing to do with them. It cost him a promotion. But he kept his Faith.
To say that freemasons no nothing and are blameless and commit no sin by joining against Christ and for satan is naivety or something worse.
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No. De Pere, WI. Father Bolduc's old church. [/quote
RIP Father Bolduc.
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All priests need prayers.
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Archbishop Lefebvre wrote a book called Against the Heresies which explains the evils of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.
Page 69, 71, 72 ,74. 99 106. Infact there is much talk about evils of masonry in the book so there is no excuse for any sspx priest or even laity to be ignorant of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. He knew what he was doing.
Anybody who is with the Resistance has read Against the Heresies by Archbishop Lefebvre. He also writes about the Humanum Genus of Pope Leo xiii. Leo makes known the wickedness of masonry.
:reading:
:incense:
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If Fr. Themann is soft on Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, he's just wrong. Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is unequivocally condemned by the Church. No exceptions. While it CAN be true that some Masons are ignorant of its true nature, and think of it as Boy Scouts for big boys, it doesn't excuse a Catholic priest telling his sheep it might be okay. He may point out that some are indeed ignorant, but he must also point out the evil consequences of continuing in ignorance!
If a man ignorantly believes he may cheat on his wife so long as he is a good provider, his ignorance doesn't make adultery okay! Such a one needs a wake-up call before he ruins his life, the lives of his wife and children, the life of his mistress and her family. Numbers of souls are bound to be lost unless the sin is stopped and forgiven.
I didn't hear the conference or sermon of Fr. Themann, but if he did not go on to speak of the consequences of ignorance, he erred. Fr. Themann may well be a kind man, a good teacher, give generously to others. To his eternal reward. But on the "not-so-bad" to Masonry, he's wrong. Do those who know and love Fr. Themann care enough to respectfully correct him?
There are lots of rude, insulting comments made on this is thread. Please, CI, posters, be careful. Who knows that one day you'll meet in person. Then what?
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If a Catholic joins the Freemasons he commits a sin by joining.
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Well, only Catholics necessarily sin by being involved in masonry. Being a low-level freemason (which is what Themann seems to be talking about, since he's talking about ignorance) is not a crime against the natural order. If a non-Catholic joins up and just wears the hat and throws candy during the parade entirely oblivious to what masonry is all about (as the majority of masons are low ranking, and many actually are ignorant that it's anything more than an after school club for grown men that gives money to charity) he can't be guilty of a sin because, well, he's a oblivious-- but also because non-Catholics aren't obliged to follow Church law. It's like saying a protestant sins by not fasting and abstaining on the days appointed.
This is all he seemed to be saying. No sense in getting too excited about this strawman. It's at the same conference in St Mary's, there's a lot else wrong with it.
This explains alot. You are defending the Masons???!!!!
They are intellects like you. They know it is against Catholic Church teachings. You even try to justify free masonry.
The Masons are doing more then passing out candy at parades. They hold secret meetings and rituals. They hate the True Catholic Church.
I'm sorry, do you think masons recruit by pitching secret meetings of devious and diabolical nature to get new members? Because they don't. It's all a front. Most low-level masons (which is really most masons) are useful idiots that come on board to volunteer at the children's hospital or help out with the circus, hand out candy at the parade, etc. This is the visible face of masonry, and this is the 'sell' to prospective masons.
People want to think they're doing some kind of good. You'll have a lot more luck with people selling them 'you can join our group and help kids with cancer and be a special part of the community' that trying to sell them 'join our sssssecret sssssociety, help usssss to overthrow the
church.'
It's not difficult to understand. The devil dresses in a nice suit and smells like flowers.
This old liberal no tactics and propaganda. You bully people who don't agree with your modernist views. You are proof that Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ exists within the sspx. Father themann condones free masonry. Father themann calls the resistance "meaningless to what". Also your friend is telling people on this forum to go to fssp chapels.
Then as most modernists you gang up on people and twist things around in order to silence the truth. You try to discredit them with insults and disrespect.
The fact that that you and many claim you are for the resistance which is not true. You are wolves in sheep clothing.
And of course we pray for you.
The sspx hierarchy used typical liberal no tactics when they slandered and tried to ruin the reputations of good and holy priests like father Hewko, father Pfieffer and bishop Williamson with public expulsions. Bullying and ostracizing tactics of liberal no was used to persecute and deny communion to the resistance laity. Even innocent families with little children were persecuted by sspx hierarchy.
The sspx hierarchy showed lack of charity and unity when they prevented Father Hewko from attending his nephews Mass ordination. Many sspx have ganged up on Father Hewko which was lack of charity. This was not Catholic.
Father Hewko is my priest. He is Catholic.
The liberal Vatican ll, the liberal modernist hierarchies of the novus ordo, sspx, fssp are no longer
Catholic. sɛҳuąƖ abuse, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, false teachings modernism, ecuмenism all not Catholic.
We pray for convention back to the True Catholic faith.
But to hang out with hypocrits would has put my soul in danger.
!Viva Cristo Rey y Viva la Virgen de Guadalupe!
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We pray for the conversions back to the true Catholic Faith.
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Archbishop Lefebvre wrote a book called Against the Heresies which explains the evils of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.
Page 69, 71, 72 ,74. 99 106. Infact there is much talk about evils of masonry in the book so there is no excuse for any sspx priest or even laity to be ignorant of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. He knew what he was doing.
Anybody who is with the Resistance has read Against the Heresies by Archbishop Lefebvre. He also writes about the Humanum Genus of Pope Leo xiii. Leo makes known the wickedness of masonry.
:reading:
:incense:
It is truth :incense: