Author Topic: Fr. Daniel Themann of SSPX - Freemasons Commit No Sin by Being a Freemason (Read 8002 times)

Ecclesia Militans · « **Reply #15 on:** June 14, 2013, 06:51:06 AM »

I think people are making too big of a deal about this. Granted that Fr. Themann could have made better distinctions, like between culpable and inculpable ignorance, and he could have said that, objectively speaking, freemasons are going to hell, but to say that he is promoting Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ amongst Catholics is just not supported by what he said.

Stubborn · « **Reply #16 on:** June 14, 2013, 07:19:53 AM »

Quote from: Ecclesia Militans

I think people are making too big of a deal about this. Granted that Fr. Themann could have made better distinctions, like between culpable and inculpable ignorance, and he could have said that, objectively speaking, freemasons are going to hell, but to say that he is promoting Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ amongst Catholics is just not supported by what he said.

While I agree he did not promote Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, he did not make it clear that being one is a sin whether the freemason knows it or not.

Instead, the message that got through was they do not sin because they do not know it is a sin - either on purpose or through his own ignorance, he neglected to add: "which means hell is full of a lot of ignorant people who sinned without knowing they were sinning."

Either way, I do not remember ever hearing such a thing from an SSPX "official" since the SSPX began - what he said was, IMO, in harmony with the thinking of new SSPX.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #17 on:** June 14, 2013, 07:29:56 AM »

Well, only Catholics necessarily sin by being involved in masonry. Being a low-level freemason (which is what Themann seems to be talking about, since he's talking about ignorance) is not a crime against the natural order. If a non-Catholic joins up and just wears the hat and throws candy during the parade entirely oblivious to what masonry is all about (as the majority of masons are low ranking, and many actually are ignorant that it's anything more than an after school club for grown men that gives money to charity) he can't be guilty of a sin because, well, he's a oblivious-- but also because non-Catholics aren't obliged to follow Church law. It's like saying a protestant sins by not fasting and abstaining on the days appointed.

This is all he seemed to be saying. No sense in getting too excited about this strawman. It's at the same conference in St Mary's, there's a lot else wrong with it.

Ethelred · « **Reply #18 on:** June 14, 2013, 08:33:52 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote
Interestingly, just two years after that letter we've got "Cuba 2.0" in the middle-east, soon "Black Friday 2.0"

What are Cuba & Black Friday 2.0?

Sorry for not having made it clearer; I used Internet "slang" with the "2.0" word meaning version 2 of something (web 2.0 etc), where version 2 of course is bigger, more colourful, etc. than the original.

The current Middle-East crisis (Syria) is in reality a proxy war between Russia and USA/Israel, and it's already comparable to the Cuba crisis which nearly ended in a nuclear world war. Just this time it's even bigger a thread because of bigger weapons and more globalism.

And for Black Friday: our current financial crisis has the potential for another stock market crash, just totally global this time. (The well known Mr. Faber recently said in an interview with the US magazine "Barron's" that in one to two months there would be a stock market crash.)

Back on-topic: I wanted to demonstrate that what Bishop Williamson prognoses since years, is today more probable than ever before, that however the modernistic Newthinking of the Neo-SSPX (everything is sweet, and the hills are filled with the sound of music) prevents the Neo-SSPX clerics from seeing these relations and ultimately seeing the reality. And so what Fr. Pfluger wrote in his unwise letter two years ago, is also related to what Fr. Themann says today.

mobius · « **Reply #19 on:** June 14, 2013, 08:52:58 AM »

What is Fr. Themann's position: Is he a Theologian, Professor, etc? Should he have known better?

bowler · « **Reply #20 on:** June 14, 2013, 09:24:45 AM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Well, only Catholics necessarily sin by being involved in masonry.

It is a mortal sin to belong to any false religion including Masonry. It kills the soul, and God will not dwell there.

Quote

Being a low-level freemason (which is what Themann seems to be talking about, since he's talking about ignorance) is not a crime against the natural order. If a non-Catholic joins up and just wears the hat and throws candy during the parade entirely oblivious to what masonry is all about (as the majority of masons are low ranking, and many actually are ignorant that it's anything more than an after school club for grown men that gives money to charity) he can't be guilty of a sin because, well, he's a oblivious-- but also because non-Catholics aren't obliged to follow Church law. It's like saying a protestant sins by not fasting and abstaining on the days appointed.This is all he seemed to be saying.

Totally wrong. Again, it is a false religion read above. Ignorance does not excuse anyone from sin. That "ignorance excuse for sin" is a false teaching that has been repeated so much in our times that the vast majority of Catholics (including this Fr. Thiemann) believe it today. It is as if God's grace has nothing to do with our good actions, when it is the opposite, without Him we can do NOTHING good. These so-called ignorant people are not ignorant to God's actual grace which is constantly TEACHING THEM what is right and wrong. Unless, God has abandoned them to their sins

No, ignorance does not excuse a mason from the mortal sin of being a mason. Fr. Thiemann is wrong, like many others who have been taught the same about Protestants, Jєωs, and other false religions.

"Those who perish do not receive the love of truth in order that they might be saved. Therefore, God will send them the operation of error, to believe lying, so that all may be judged who have not believed the truth but have consented to iniquity". (II Thesss. 2:10-11)

"The excuse of ignorance is denied those who know the commandments of God, but neither will those who do not know be without punishment. "For, as many as have sinned outside the law shall also perish outside the law" (Romans 2:12). Without faith in Christ, no man can be delivered; therefore, they will be judged in such a way that they perish. "The servant who does not know his Lord's will, and who commits things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes; whereas, the servant who knows his Lord's will, shall be beaten with many stripes" (Lk. 12:47 48). Observe here that it is a more serious matter for a man to sin with knowledge than in ignorance. And yet, we must not take refuge on this account to shades of ignorance, to find our excuse therein. Even ignorance which belongs to them who are, as it were, simply ignorant does not excuse anyone so as to exempt him from eternal fire, even were his failure to believe the result of not having heard at all what he should believe. It was not said without reason: "Pour out Thy wrath upon the nations who have not known Thee" (Psalm 78:6), and "He shall come from Heaven in a flame of fire to take vengeance on those who do not know God" (Thess.111:7 8).
(St. Augustine)

I have many, even better quotes, but not the time to post them now.

bowler · « **Reply #21 on:** June 14, 2013, 09:32:38 AM »

By the way, in the first three levels of masonry, the Blue Lodge, where the vast majority of Masons belong, they drink blood mixed with their drinks at the bar (if I know it they know it), and participate in fornication and other activities. They are not as innocent as Fr. Thiemann, thinks them to be. This highlights to me the fact that he is just a kid, just fresh out of a defective seminary.

bowler · « **Reply #22 on:** June 14, 2013, 09:43:15 AM »

Pope Innocent II
The Errors of Peter Abelard (Condemned)

10. That they have not sinned who being ignorant have crucified Christ, and that whatever is done through ignorance must not be considered as sin. Condemned (Denz 377)

"If, therefore, a person be ignorant of what is commanded or forbidden because he has not studied the law of God, his ignorance does not excuse him from sin". (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

Telesphorus · « **Reply #23 on:** June 14, 2013, 10:36:20 AM »

A good Catholic wouldn't accept the oaths and religious indifferentism of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, whether or not it had been condemned by the Church.

Incredulous · « **Reply #24 on:** June 14, 2013, 01:40:31 PM »

Quote from: Ethelred

Quote from: Incredulous
Oh man... how far has the neoSSPX theology program deteriorated?

This theme seems related to the same "divine ignorance" garbage Bp. Fellay is espousing. "But IF... he is a good Jєω or a good freemason".

For Papal Encyclicals, the condemnation of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ exceeds any other topic!

This is our "hour of darkness" and the Freemasons are closing in on us.

So, why is Father doing this?

Because of Menzingen's newthinking, which is the modernistic Vatican II thinking. There's no enemies of the Church anymore but only friends. We're all friends and there's always a sweetie-pie solution -- except for the naaasty Naaaaazis and Bishop Williamson and us friends of the Vetero-SSPX of course.

The general superior's first assistant Fr. Niklaus Pfluger "nicely" demonstrated this newthinking in the beginning of his unwise 2011 letter to Bishop Williamson. Bold by me to highlight the part which could answer your question.

Letter from Fr Niklaus Pfluger to Bishop Williamson (English translation)

Quote from: Fr. Niklaus Pfluger
1 January 2011

Your Excellency, Dear Bishop Williamson,

For months I have been meaning to write to you in order to bring up everything so to speak incomprehensible and also false in the things you have been saying over the last few years. I put it off since you never brought up arguments and obviously feel personally hurt – rather unusual for a free-thinking man. But after I could not help reading in your latest “Eleison Comments” that “World War III may not be far off”, I am now writing before time becomes short, because one never knows when time will run out.

This prophecy of yours took my mind back to the after-dinner speeches at the Episcopal Consecrations of 1988, After the main event all four newly consecrated bishops said a few words. Bishop Tissier as usual was very theological and dogmatic. Bishop de Galarreta was short and discrete. Bishop Fellay was pastoral and balanced. But you were principally concerned with war. Perhaps you were already thinking of World War III when you cried out to the assembly, “It’s war, it’s war !”. At that time it was still the Russians who were due to attack. It would be quite a task to count up all the times in the last 22 years that you have prophesied with precise dates the Third World War and the Chastisement. At least a dozen times for sure. A task also to work out why you have never asked yourself the question whether your forecasting arises from objective analysis and not rather from subjective utopianism.

Alas, I know you do not ask yourself such questions. Nor do you ask why I, and with me Menzingen and almost the entire Society of St Pius X and the world while we are about it, why we merely shake our heads and are simply disappointed. (I attach extracts from two e-mails, the first coming from a former pupil of yours, the second from a German town mayor.) For you it is clear. Always somebody else is to blame. Everybody else is clueless, blind to reality, agents of some organization or other, be it Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ or the Mossad or the CIA, most recently and emphatically “the Jєωs” – the list is long. In brief, anybody who disagrees with you is either stupid or wicked or both. To any of the people who have rejected your constant warnings of war and your crude political and economic theories, and who have criticized you for them – there are many such people, and some have even been offended -- have you ever apologized ? Have you apologized to one single one ? Would you ever be capable of saying, “I was wrong” ?

[...]

Interestingly, just two years after that letter we've got "Cuba 2.0" in the middle-east, soon "Black Friday 2.0" and know that the good bishop's warning against a world-war and economical collapse was and still is fully justified. Also we know by now (or since the Krahgate) that Bp Fellay's and Fr. Pfluger's adviser Max Krah actually is a Judaizer with good connections to the Mossad. These few examples make that letter even stranger. You, Incred, wrote: Are we about to soon find out their are some neoSSPX freemasons? Some Vetero-SSPX priests affirm your question.

Thank you for the surgical analysis in response to my questions Ethelred.

There are so many things happening in the neoSSPX in recent years, it is hard to keep up and connect all the dots.

Incredulous · « **Reply #25 on:** June 14, 2013, 01:46:41 PM »

Quote from: Ecclesia Militans

I think people are making too big of a deal about this. Granted that Fr. Themann could have made better distinctions, like between culpable and inculpable ignorance, and he could have said that, objectively speaking, freemasons are going to hell, but to say that he is promoting Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ amongst Catholics is just not supported by what he said.

But he's focusing on giving dumb freemasons a "pass".
That topic is so unreal and fleetingly insignificant.

In effect, he's moving the topic of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, the wrecking team of the Catholic Church, to sandy ground.

Instead, he should be warning us about the evils of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, but nowadays that is politically incorrect in the neoSSPX.
Only dinosaur "uranium" bishops still do that.

Matto · « **Reply #26 on:** June 14, 2013, 01:50:01 PM »

All I know is that now I can never respect Fr. Daniel Themann ever again. I cannot take him seriously anymore. :cheers:

He must not know the role of a priest as the guardian of the flock. Something is wrong with him. He does not seem like a good shepherd but a hireling.

Incredulous · « **Reply #27 on:** June 14, 2013, 04:05:19 PM »

Quote from: Matto

All I know is that now I can never respect Fr. Daniel Themann ever again. I cannot take him seriously anymore. :cheers:

He must not know the role of a priest as the guardian of the flock. Something is wrong with him. He does not seem like a good shepherd but a hireling.

That's a good point.
This is an example of how every priest in the neoSSPX is exposing themselves to Rahnerite logic.
Their priesthoods are in jeopardy.

cosmas · « **Reply #28 on:** July 19, 2013, 04:10:06 PM »

FR. THEMAN, IS OFF HIS ROCKER ! FREEMASONARY IS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO CHRISTIANITY. FIRST OF ALL THEY TAKE BLOOD OATHS, THEY BELIEVE AT A CERTAIN DEGREE THAT THEY ARE ENLIGHTENED , ILUUMINED, THEY BELIEVE IN THE THIRD EYE, ANYONE THAT HAS STUDIED EVEN A LITTLE ABOUT OCCULTISM KNOWS ABOUT THE THIRD EYE IN THE FOREHEAD. THEY HAVE INFILTRATED EVERY WALK OF LIFE ALL ORGANIZATIONS ALL , UNIONS, ALL GOVT. ENTITIES AND RELIGIOUS. THEIR ULTIMATE GOAL IS A ONE WORLD RELIGION, GOVERNMENT, AND MONETARY SYSTEM. ALL WITHOUT THE CHRISTIAN GOD. A MASONS FIRST ALLEGIANCE IS TO HIS FELLOW MASON ABOVE THE GOOD OF HIS GOVERNMENT, FAITH, OR EVEN FAMILY. THEY COVERUP FOR EACH OTHER, IN LAW , BUSINESS ETC..THEY WILL TAKE AN OATH IN COURT,BUT BREAK THAT OATH IF IT AT ALL ENDANGERS A FELLOW MASON. THE " G' YOU SEE BETWEEN THE COMPASS AND RULE OF THE FREEMASONS STANDS FOR THE GENERATIVE PROCESS IN A MAN. THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT, TO MASONS IS A PHALLIC SYMBOL, THEY DECORATE TONS OF CEMETARY'S THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY. FREMASON'S GOD, IS LUCIFER, ALBERT PIKE CONSIDERED THE AMERICAN pope of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ HAS WRITTEN A MASONRY BIBLE CALLED MORALS AND DOGMA, IN THAT BOOK HE SAYS LUCIFER IS GOD. ALL OF OUR PRESIDENTS HAVE BEEN SWORN IN WITH A MASONIC BIBLE, A JEFFERSONIAN BIBLE THE NAME OF "JESUS " HAS BEEN TAKEN OUT OF IT. IF YOU JOIN Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ YOUR DANCING WITH THE DEVIL,AND POSSIBLY SENDING YOURSELF AND OTHERS YOU INFLUENCE TO HELL. FR. THEMAN NEEDS TO DO A LITTLE MORE RESEARCH, AND I'M TOLD SOME OF THE YOUNGER PRIESTS IN PIUS X ARE BEING TOLD MASONRY'S OKAY. ONCE YOUR IN DEEP WITH THEM IT BECOMES HARDER TO GET OUT . THEY ARE GREAT ABOUT USING BLACKMAIL TO GET WHAT THEY REQUIRE ACCOMPLISHED. FR. LUIGI VILLA INVESTIGATED ECCLESIASTICAL Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ IN THE CHURCH, HE DIED A YEAR AGO. IN HIS BOOKLETS HE HAS DOcuмENTED RECENT POPES THAT WERE MASONS , THAT KIND OF EXPLAINS WHY THE CHURCH IS IN A MESS.

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #29 on:** July 19, 2013, 05:03:27 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Well, only Catholics necessarily sin by being involved in masonry. Being a low-level freemason (which is what Themann seems to be talking about, since he's talking about ignorance) is not a crime against the natural order. If a non-Catholic joins up and just wears the hat and throws candy during the parade entirely oblivious to what masonry is all about (as the majority of masons are low ranking, and many actually are ignorant that it's anything more than an after school club for grown men that gives money to charity) he can't be guilty of a sin because, well, he's a oblivious-- but also because non-Catholics aren't obliged to follow Church law. It's like saying a protestant sins by not fasting and abstaining on the days appointed.

This is all he seemed to be saying. No sense in getting too excited about this strawman. It's at the same conference in St Mary's, there's a lot else wrong with it.

This explains alot. You are defending the Masons???!!!!

They are intellects like you. They know it is against Catholic Church teachings. You even try to justify free masonry.

The Masons are doing more then passing out candy at parades. They hold secret meetings and rituals. They hate the True Catholic Church.