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Author Topic: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article  (Read 22436 times)

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Offline claudel

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Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
« Reply #195 on: November 29, 2020, 08:51:55 PM »
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  • My comments were regarding "fighting back" which is a practical action.  The issue of mask wearing is the perfect analogy, because, as you said it is a "concession".  But it's not involuntary, because you can just stop eating/shopping and avoid wearing one.  You still have a choice.

    This is just silly.

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #196 on: November 29, 2020, 08:59:26 PM »
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  • My comments were regarding "fighting back" which is a practical action.  The issue of mask wearing is the perfect analogy, because, as you said it is a "concession".  But it's not involuntary, because you can just stop eating/shopping and avoid wearing one.  You still have a choice.
    Some people like wearing the mask.  There is research that it can reduce transmission and contraction of the flu and other illnesses, and mask wearing has been going on in Asia for years.  I personally like wearing the mask, there is a chance it will keep me healthier, and I don't have to be self conscious about the way I look.  For me personally I'll probably be wearing the mask long after they say we don't have to wear it anymore.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #197 on: November 29, 2020, 09:09:52 PM »
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  • Quote
    Involuntary mask wearing—as when shopping—might be a distasteful concession to an authoritarian and Christophobic state, but it is a concession that neither implies nor necessitates a surrender of a high principle or a moral absolute.

    You're missing the point.  You say it's a distasteful concession to wear a mask, and it is.  But the original question was how do we "fight back" against wearing masks?  If we can't fight back against masks (which don't require a surrender of principles), then there's no way back against a vaccine, when moral principles are involved.

    Offline claudel

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #198 on: November 29, 2020, 09:18:17 PM »
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  • Some people like wearing the mask.  There is research that it can reduce transmission and contraction of the flu and other illnesses, and mask wearing has been going on in Asia for years.  I personally like wearing the mask, there is a chance it will keep me healthier, and I don't have to be self conscious about the way I look.  For me personally I'll probably be wearing the mask long after they say we don't have to wear it anymore.

    You'll be making a big mistake; indeed, you're already making one. Within minutes of donning it, the mask reduces your oxygen intake from 21 percent to 17 percent—two percentage points below the level that, per federal regulations, triggers the shutdown of a coal mine. If an atmosphere with a mere 17 percent concentration of oxygen isn't safe for a miner, why assume it's safe for you? What's more, several of your fellow gullible mask wearers have died behind the wheel when they passed out while driving—driving all alone! How's that for a lethal combination of conformism, fear, and ignorance!

    Worse still is the danger you are putting yourself in by re-inhaling the microbes and toxins that your lungs expel with each exhalation. This is a matter of settled medical science, not the pseudo-science of Fauci the Fraud and his government and media pals. They want you to poison yourself by wearing a mask. Why give them what they want?

    It should require roughly a 90-second search through the archives of this very site to find corroboration of everything I've written above. Why not get started now?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #199 on: November 29, 2020, 09:21:36 PM »
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  • And a baby had to be murdered in order for you to get your "parts."

    Interesting choice of words.

    PS: HEK293 remains HEK293 (human embryonic kidney cells) no matter how many times you use it, or it wouldn't be HEK293.
    Sean, coming from someone who finds most vaccines dangerous and morally unacceptable, I wonder if you would hold the same opinion if it was determined that the baby cells that were used actually came from a baby that was not murdered, but was in fact from a baby that died from natural means? I’m trying to play devil’s advocate here.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #200 on: November 29, 2020, 09:33:10 PM »
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  • The baby was aborted, based on my research elective abortions were not legal in the Netherlands in 1972 when the abortion occurred, so either it was "medically necessary" or a spontaneous abortion "miscarriage".

    Then you are a very incompetent researcher:

    Dutch law always allowed for the abortions to save the life of the mother.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #201 on: November 29, 2020, 09:36:08 PM »
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  • The use of fetal cells is morally indifferent. The sinfulness comes from the origin of those particular fetal cells, namely from an aborted fetus. The principle seems the same in hypothetical. Starting a business with money is morally indifferent. The sinfulness comes from the origin of the money, namely from a murder. Thus the business is a direct causal result of the murder, just as it is argued that vaccines produced from cells developed from an aborted fetus are a direct causal result of an abortion, no?
    First we must get some facts straight. The aborted unborn baby had to be alive (at least for a moment) in order harvest the live fetal cells for the vaccine line. In fact the harvesting may have been the imminent cause of death because dead fetal cells will not work for vaccine development. I don't know if that changes things or if it is still  morally indifferent to you. 
    However, what I cannot wrap my mind around is juxtaposing money to live fetal cells. Maybe in some dry, scholarly way,  this comparison would work  although I find the argument is not honest. What is currently present is live cells from a human being , no past tense here. We are not really distanced from the abortion at all, in fact it is a continuation of and participation in the act, procuring and sustaining live cells from a long dead fetus as a commodity, as a product, as a medical 'advancement' but never as a person who could have lived. 
     Obviously I m not conversant in the moral theology you are arguing about - l admit that. But now with all of the stem cell technology available, could it not be possible to take the pluripotent activity of these cells and make them not a means to an end but to a beginning? I truly don't like this idea either, but when you are dealing with living cell lines in the present, they probably could be applied either way. it kind of turns the subject on it's head. 
    Pax was relating on an earlier post re: a relationship to the Eucharist, i can't remember specifically what. But as a crumb of the Sacred Species is all and entirely God; is not a living cell of a child, a child?There are many things to consider- Not theologically based on my part for sure.
     i do find many of these arguments an exercise in hair splitting. There is just so much parsing and analyzing one can do to extract the desired results when sometimes going with your gut (your Catholic trained gut) is the best answer. Either this is evil or it is not.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #202 on: November 29, 2020, 09:39:59 PM »
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  • Sean, coming from someone who finds most vaccines dangerous and morally unacceptable, I wonder if you would hold the same opinion if it was determined that the baby cells that were used actually came from a baby that was not murdered, but was in fact from a baby that died from natural means? I’m trying to play devil’s advocate here.
    In such an hypothetical, there would be no cooperation in evil (or any evil period), and the entire issue would be moot.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #203 on: November 29, 2020, 09:44:30 PM »
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  • Quote
    i do find many of these arguments an exercise in hair splitting. There is just so much parsing and analyzing one can do to extract the desired results when sometimes going with your gut (your Catholic trained gut) is the best answer. Either this is evil or it is not.

    "Hair splitting" is the nature of moral theology.  No one is saying there is not evil involved.  The question is, who is culpable?  When?  How much?  These are not easy questions.
    .

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    What is currently present is live cells from a human being , no past tense here.

    Ok, but a cell is not a human being.  Even an organ is not a human being.  If I were dying and took a kidney transplant from a known drug dealer, does that make me guilty of a drug dealer's crimes?
    .
    The secondary question is if these cells were copied/cloned, aren't they brand new cells?  I see cloning of the original 1980s abortive cells as being independent of that crime.  To me, cloned cells are new.

    Offline claudel

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #204 on: November 29, 2020, 09:45:46 PM »
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  • … If we can't fight back against masks ….

    This is a false premise. Of course one can fight back against wearing a mask. The question is how and to what extent it is reasonable to do so.

    Reasonability is a major consideration with mask wearing because mask wearing is not ipso facto immoral—at least, not yet. As accepting even a licitly sourced vaccine, however, is not simply useless to one's well-being but probably perilous to it, reasonability takes on even greater, indeed genuinely immense importance—so much so that failure to resist taking the vaccine might be construed as a sinful act because of the contempt it would show for reasonableness.

    In the present situation, however, involving what most (not all!) of us agree is an illicitly sourced vaccine, the same sort of reasonability is quite irrelevant to forming a moral stance, except insofar as defying a fundamental principle of faith and morals and thereby jeopardizing one's salvation may be said to be unreasonable. (In an earlier comment I mentioned factors that are relevant. I shan't repeat them here.)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #205 on: November 29, 2020, 09:47:28 PM »
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    Then you are a very incompetent researcher:
    If you could ever control your temper and debate like a man, you could be highly influential.  As it is...
    .

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    Dutch law always allowed for the abortions to save the life of the mother.

    That's not the same as an "elective" abortion, but would be a medical necessity, as Durango pointed out.


    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #206 on: November 29, 2020, 09:50:06 PM »
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  • First we must get some facts straight. The aborted unborn baby had to be alive (at least for a moment) in order harvest the live fetal cells for the vaccine line. In fact the harvesting may have been the imminent cause of death because dead fetal cells will not work for vaccine development. I don't know if that changes things or if it is still  morally indifferent to you.
    However, what I cannot wrap my mind around is juxtaposing money to live fetal cells. Maybe in some dry, scholarly way,  this comparison would work  although I find the argument is not honest. What is currently present is live cells from a human being , no past tense here. We are not really distanced from the abortion at all, in fact it is a continuation of and participation in the act, procuring and sustaining live cells from a long dead fetus as a commodity, as a product, as a medical 'advancement' but never as a person who could have lived.
     Obviously I m not conversant in the moral theology you are arguing about - l admit that. But now with all of the stem cell technology available, could it not be possible to take the pluripotent activity of these cells and make them not a means to an end but to a beginning? I truly don't like this idea either, but when you are dealing with living cell lines in the present, they probably could be applied either way. it kind of turns the subject on it's head.
    Pax was relating on an earlier post re: a relationship to the Eucharist, i can't remember specifically what. But as a crumb of the Sacred Species is all and entirely God; is not a living cell of a child, a child?There are many things to consider- Not theologically based on my part for sure.
     i do find many of these arguments an exercise in hair splitting. There is just so much parsing and analyzing one can do to extract the desired results when sometimes going with your gut (your Catholic trained gut) is the best answer. Either this is evil or it is not.
    Fetal cells can be obtained through morally legitimate means (as noted by Fr Chazal. Therefore using fetal cells for medical research is morally indifferent.
    A single cell of a host would no longer have the accidents of bread and thus the Divine Presence is not in the single cell.
    If a living cell were taken from a live adult, would that cell be the adult? Obviously not.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #207 on: November 29, 2020, 09:50:30 PM »
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    Of course one can fight back against wearing a mask. The question is how and to what extent it is reasonable to do so.
    That was the question.  We're all waiting for an answer.  I don't have one, except for each state's legislator's to change the 'emergency powers' laws they give governors for medical emergencies.  We lost this battle long ago, in state laws.
    .

    Quote
    Reasonability is a major consideration with mask wearing because mask wearing is not ipso facto immoral—at least, not yet. As accepting even a licitly sourced vaccine, however, is not simply useless to one's well-being but probably perilous to it, reasonability takes on even greater, indeed genuinely immense importance—so much so that failure to resist taking the vaccine might be construed as a sinful act because of the contempt it would show for reasonableness.

    In the present situation, however, involving what most (not all!) of us agree is an illicitly sourced vaccine, the same sort of reasonability is quite irrelevant to forming a moral stance, except insofar as defying a fundamental principle of faith and morals and thereby jeopardizing one's salvation may be said to be unreasonable. (In an earlier comment I mentioned factors that are relevant. I shan't repeat them here.)

    You've flipped back to theory, which is not the question.  Practicality is the question.  ..."How do you fight against forced vaccines, if you/we can't figure out how to fight against forced masks?"

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #208 on: November 29, 2020, 09:56:10 PM »
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  • https://youtu.be/uaMjO2gXaUo?t=175

    People really need to look at this video that Pat317 posted earlier. It says it all.


    Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on Today at 09:21:36 PM
    Quote
    Sean, coming from someone who finds most vaccines dangerous and morally unacceptable, I wonder if you would hold the same opinion if it was determined that the baby cells that were used actually came from a baby that was not murdered, but was in fact from a baby that died from natural means? I’m trying to play devil’s advocate here.
    They can't take the cells from a dead baby (miscarriage) The baby had to be alive for harvesting live cells. So only an abortion ( post -birth murder ) would suffice. Watch the video

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #209 on: November 29, 2020, 10:07:55 PM »
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  • Fetal cells can be obtained through morally legitimate means (as noted by Fr Chazal. Therefore using fetal cells for medical research is morally indifferent.
    A single cell of a host would no longer have the accidents of bread and thus the Divine Presence is not in the single cell.
    If a living cell were taken from a live adult, would that cell be the adult? Obviously not.  
    The cells harvested have to come from certain areas for their pluripotency- they need to have rapid duplication, they are not just ordinary fingernail cells. Fetal extraction of cells are never morally legitimate.
    Father Chazal NEVER would say fetal cells were licit in any way. I think you are grossly mistaken. He said placental cells work just as well and that is true. Why don't they use them pray tell? Because the  vaccine makers ARE NOT morally indifferent. They are decidedly evil.
    I am curious however, after the Consecration, I thought the smallest particle was still the Body and Blood of Christ. Granted, cellular level is hard to see but i never heard it expressed in the way you stated ' The Divine presence is not in the single cell'- interesting if true.