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Author Topic: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article  (Read 22395 times)

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Offline josefamenendez

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Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
« Reply #180 on: November 29, 2020, 07:38:26 PM »
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  • Are the cells of the baby, once it’s mixed with the virus, part of a new substance and that’s why it cannot be separated?  If so, then the fetal cells no longer exist.  
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    2 parts water mixed with 1 part hydrogen = water.  If you add another part of hydrogen, you have an entirely new substance - hydrogen peroxide.  Water no longer exists.  You can’t say, “Well, the “water DNA” still exists”. No, it’s an entirely new chemically altered thing.  
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    If the fetal cells are used/consumed in making the virus strain, then it doesn’t matter if traces of the DNA still exist because the end result is a new thing.  
    Wow- I'm trying to get the logic...... The baby used to culture a virus 'contaminates' the virus with it's DNA and then becomes part of the product , thereby losing it's original human identity becoming just an admixture? And that alleviates guilt for the use of fetal tissue because it changed properties (it hasn't) in the process?  Even a chimera would be more a suitable result than that . I hope that was a joke and i am just naïve

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #181 on: November 29, 2020, 07:39:30 PM »
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  • Going back to the example of the early Christians not offering incense to false gods, this shows again the infectious disease of subjectivism ("formal"-ism as I call it) on our modern thinking.  With this "formal"-ism, I can say that while I commit the "material" act of offering the incense, in my mind I don't really intend it, so I don't commit any kind of sin by doing so, since I only committed material idolatry, but not formal idolatry.  It was only a "material" act and a merely-material evil act can be justified by the need to preserve my life.  This is how modern, post-Renaissance moralists would have approached this issue, but it would have been absolutely repugnant to the early Christians to think this way.  Those who condone taking this vaccine have in fact succuмbed to the same nefarious subjectivist thinking pattern.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #182 on: November 29, 2020, 07:50:11 PM »
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  • 1) CONTINUING sin.  As the one article cited by Sean points out, we're not talking about a remote material participation in some past sin, but an active participation in a current sin.  To the extent that remnants of the murdered child remain in the vaccine, we are actively participating in the abuse and desecration of a human body.  Let's say that the nαzιs killed some Jews and made lampshades from their skin (assume for now that this actually happened).  I didn't agree with what they did to the Jews, but I decided to acquire one of these lampshades and have one of them on my coffee table.  Whether or not I agreed with or participated in the murder itself, I am participating in an ongoing sin against the dignity of that person.  Likewise, going back to my car lot example.  I want a cheap car so I buy one off a lot where I know that all the cars are stolen.  Well, regardless of whether or not I participated in the original theft, by owning this car that I have not right to own in justice, I am continuing to actively participate in the injustice committed against the original victim.

    So of the 3 points I cited, Pax's one argument pertains to this one here, that no actual remnant of the original baby remains, that what remains is an entirely new substance.  I believe that the respect that must be shown to human remains pertains even to the purely-material remnants of the body.  If a corpse has been cremated for instance, and all that remain are ashes, certainly it no longer has the form of the human body, but is it OK then to put these in a cat's litter box to defecate on?  Recall that at the Resurrection of the Body, God does obtain the original matter that constituted the human body to re-created the risen bodies.  Also, the body itself loses its human form when a person dies, since the soul is the form and the body the matter of the human being.  So I believe and hold that even the matter of a former human body must be respected and cannot be desecrated.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #183 on: November 29, 2020, 07:50:57 PM »
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  • Is it still a concern for some that the corona virus vaccines likely cause infertility?
    Some whistleblowers have said 97% chance of being infertile. Of course the fact checkers have come out with a vengeance to discredit those claims.  

    I would like to think that Catholic parents who have children would do everything in their power to avoid such a devastating consequence, even if it was only a possibility, from happening to the future generation entrusted to their care.
     Many vaccines cause infertility intentionally. Look up HCG "contaminated" Tetanus vaccines that have been used for the past 25 years on indigenous peoples in poor (Catholic) countries.(East Timor, Brazil, Philippines) The vaccines were given only to child bearing women ages 9-45 , and in East Timor they were administered by the military as a series of 3 injections. The shot caused early abortion if pregnant and sterility long term. These monsters have been at this a long time.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #184 on: November 29, 2020, 08:06:06 PM »
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  • What about this hypothetical? Mr X is a wealthy man. Mr Y kills him for a personal reason. Mr Z, Mr X’s heir, is aware of Mr Y’s plan but does nothing to stop him because he wants his inheritance. Let us further assume that Mr Z’s role is publicly known but that for the sake of this hypothetical he is not found guilty by the law nor suffers any civil penalty. He uses his ill-gotten wealth to establish a legitimate business. Thirty years later, a father of a family can only get a job at this business. Can he licitly take the job?
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    Thank you my friend. This is an excellent question. Anyone wanna grab this one and run with it?
    .
    EDIT: Deleted a lot of stuff I thought better about on consideration. Have a nice weekend, my CathInfo friends. :cowboy:


    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #185 on: November 29, 2020, 08:12:25 PM »
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  • Many vaccines cause infertility intentionally. Look up HCG "contaminated" Tetanus vaccines that have been used for the past 25 years on indigenous peoples in poor (Catholic) countries.(East Timor, Brazil, Philippines) The vaccines were given only to child bearing women ages 9-45 , and in East Timor they were administered by the military as a series of 3 injections. The shot caused early abortion if pregnant and sterility long term. These monsters have been at this a long time.
    Yes, one of the many reasons my children aren’t vaccinated. 
    I was fully vaccinated as a child and even received my booster shot at 12. Which then, I believe, led me to years of severe migraines, numerous tests, an MRI, and prescription medication in my teens to manage them. 
    Thyroid and adrenal issues in my late thirties didn’t help either. I do believe it is a combination of vaccines and pesticides used in American foods that makes us so sick. 

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #186 on: November 29, 2020, 08:17:05 PM »
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  • The offering of incense example fails because it is not cooperation in but doing evil.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #187 on: November 29, 2020, 08:25:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: ElAusente on Today at 03:03:14 AM
    Quote
    What about this hypothetical? Mr X is a wealthy man. Mr Y kills him for a personal reason. Mr Z, Mr X’s heir, is aware of Mr Y’s plan but does nothing to stop him because he wants his inheritance. Let us further assume that Mr Z’s role is publicly known but that for the sake of this hypothetical he is not found guilty by the law nor suffers any civil penalty. He uses his ill-gotten wealth to establish a legitimate business. Thirty years later, a father of a family can only get a job at this business. Can he licitly take the job?
    Only if there was not a stem cell line harvested from Mr X's  living pre-murdered body that is still necessary to operate the business 30 years on. Apples and oranges

    ps Yeti.. read the deleted stuff. Wasn't bad at all


    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #188 on: November 29, 2020, 08:34:44 PM »
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  • The use of fetal cells is morally indifferent. The sinfulness comes from the origin of those particular fetal cells, namely from an aborted fetus. The principle seems the same in hypothetical. Starting a business with money is morally indifferent. The sinfulness comes from the origin of the money, namely from a murder. Thus the business is a direct causal result of the murder, just as it is argued that vaccines produced from cells developed from an aborted fetus are a direct causal result of an abortion, no?

    Offline claudel

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #189 on: November 29, 2020, 08:35:49 PM »
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  • Claudel and Carissima,
    You’re acting like this won’t be forced on us in some way.  “Oh, let’s fight back!”  How?  90% of businesses and people use masks today and such are required.  This will be the same situation when the vaccine comes out.  How are you “fighting back” against masks?  Sure, you can not wear them sometimes, but if you want to shop/eat, you gotta wear em.

    There is a difference in kind between the mask problem and the vaccine problem, so much so that I'm truly surprised that you conflate or associate them. Voluntary mask wearing is a mark of gullibility, conformity, deception, ignorance, cowardice, or, usually, some combination of those factors. Involuntary mask wearing—as when shopping—might be a distasteful concession to an authoritarian and Christophobic state, but it is a concession that neither implies nor necessitates a surrender of a high principle or a moral absolute.

    On the other hand, for all who agree with ++Viganò's cogent analysis of the situation, accepting the vaccine in any situation short of being tied hand and foot while a shot is forcibly administered or accepting it because a loaded weapon is pointed at a spouse, child, friend, or other loved one* would amount to a betrayal of one's baptismal Faith. In short, apples and oranges.

    Further to the vaccine problem, you might well be aware that Qantas and several other airlines have already announced that once one of these rushed-to-untested-production vaccines is available, anyone wishing to be a passenger will have to be vaccinated—no exceptions! It's a safe bet that, with the (((government and media))) urging them on, all other airlines will quickly follow suit.

    Things will be getting real very soon.
    _______________
    *Perhaps even then, but this is a matter that requires a good deal of reflection and consultation.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #190 on: November 29, 2020, 08:37:07 PM »
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  • Quote
    So of the 3 points I cited, Pax's one argument pertains to this one here, that no actual remnant of the original baby remains, that what remains is an entirely new substance.  I believe that the respect that must be shown to human remains pertains even to the purely-material remnants of the body.  If a corpse has been cremated for instance, and all that remain are ashes, certainly it no longer has the form of the human body, but is it OK then to put these in a cat's litter box to defecate on?  Recall that at the Resurrection of the Body, God does obtain the original matter that constituted the human body to re-created the risen bodies.  Also, the body itself loses its human form when a person dies, since the soul is the form and the body the matter of the human being.  So I believe and hold that even the matter of a former human body must be respected and cannot be desecrated.

    The difference in your example above vs vaccines is that you're talking about 1 step away from the evil, whereas the fetal cells are 2-3 steps away.  For your example, the cremation of the body is step 1.  What happens if the cremated ashes are used to fertilize a farm for food?  That would be an additional chemical change.  Body --> ashes --> tomato.  One could argue that the tomato is NOT a human body, so eating it wouldn't be as wrong as the evil of cremation.
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    To further the analogy, let's hypothesize that EVERY farm used cremation to grow vegetables.  Would one have to starve in order to avoid "eating" human remains?  That's the most analogous situation to the "forced" vaccine debate today.
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    The reason I say the vaccine is 2-3 steps removed from an abortion is because 1) a fetal cell is part of a body...it is not a person.  2) once a fetal cell is mixed with a virus, it becomes a new thing.  3) this new virus then is combined AGAIN to make a vaccine...a potentially ADDITIONAL new thing.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #191 on: November 29, 2020, 08:40:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    accepting the vaccine in any situation short of being tied hand and foot or having a loaded weapon pointed at a spouse, child, friend, or other loved one* would amount to a betrayal of one's baptismal Faith. In short, apples and oranges.

    No, no, no.  According to the logic of many on here (and of +Vigano's) there is NO compromise allowed.  Even if a gun was pointed at you or your family, you'd have to take a bullet instead of the vaccine.  You'd have to suffer martyrdom instead.  That's what Sean is saying and that's what +Vigano's logic leads to.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #192 on: November 29, 2020, 08:43:22 PM »
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  • Quote
    Involuntary mask wearing—as when shopping—might be a distasteful concession to an authoritarian and Christophobic state, but it is a concession that neither implies nor necessitates a surrender of a high principle or a moral absolute.

    My comments were regarding "fighting back" which is a practical action.  The issue of mask wearing is the perfect analogy, because, as you said it is a "concession".  But it's not involuntary, because you can just stop eating/shopping and avoid wearing one.  You still have a choice.

    Offline claudel

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #193 on: November 29, 2020, 08:50:14 PM »
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  • No, no, no.  According to the logic of many on here (and of +Vigano's) there is NO compromise allowed.  Even if a gun was pointed at you or your family, you'd have to take a bullet instead of the vaccine.  You'd have to suffer martyrdom instead.  
    That's what Sean is saying and that's what +Vigano's logic leads to.

    Why, I wonder, did you ignore the asterisked qualification I offered? I wrote what I wrote because I am not yet prepared to make a final, definitive judgment about every conceivable hypothetical adducible in so critical a matter. That others have done so is what it is, and I accept their conclusion. Yet surely this is an area where we might afford one another a bit of breathing room.

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #194 on: November 29, 2020, 08:51:42 PM »
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  • Bump for Pax.
    The baby was aborted, based on my research elective abortions were not legal in the Netherlands in 1972 when the abortion occurred, so either it was "medically necessary" or a spontaneous abortion "miscarriage".

    Pope Pius XII said:
    Pope Pius XII, in his May 14, 1956, allocution to a group of eye specialists, suggested: "The public must be educated. It must be explained with intelligence and respect that to consent explicitly or tacitly to serious damage to the integrity of the corpse in the interest of those who are suffering, is no violation of the reverence due to the dead."

    I take that to mean that if the person consents, for the reason of helping improve medicine, or improve the training of people practicing medicine, then donated a body to "science" or research is acceptable.

    With that in mind if we know the baby wasn't electively aborted, unless the doctor and hospital broke the law in performing an elective abortion (which is possibly), and the mother consented to the use of the babies body for medical research.  What sin would I be committing using a product that was tested using the HEK293 line of cells? 

    It would be different if the vaccine contained some part of these cells but it doesn't, and the testing isn't an ongoing process, it occurred while they were developing the formula for the vaccine and then my assumption is the testing has stopped and they are doing human testing now with consenting adults.