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Author Topic: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article  (Read 22349 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
« Reply #150 on: November 29, 2020, 01:11:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 29, 2020, 11:14:24 AM
    Offering a pinch of incense to the false gods is not on par with taking a vaccine.  Not even in the same ball park.
    The defective logic on display here is that, if a worse sin can be committed, the lesser sin is permissible (or worse: that developing vaccines with murdered baby parts is not that big a deal).
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #151 on: November 29, 2020, 01:25:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 29, 2020, 01:07:56 PM
    Yes, it does (and so does the Moderna one):

    https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2020/11/use-of-pfizer-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-is-morally-acceptable-say-bishops/

    “They are not completely free from any connection to abortion, however, as both Pfizer and Moderna made use of a tainted cell line for one of the confirmatory lab tests of their products."

    This article also acknowledges the use of aborted fetal cells in the development of the Pfizer vaccine:

    https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/11/72753/

    I notice many articles online that are trying to obscure the fact.
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    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #152 on: November 29, 2020, 01:26:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 29, 2020, 01:07:56 PM
    Yes, it does (and so does the Moderna one):

    https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2020/11/use-of-pfizer-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-is-morally-acceptable-say-bishops/

    “They are not completely free from any connection to abortion, however, as both Pfizer and Moderna made use of a tainted cell line for one of the confirmatory lab tests of their products."
    It seemed to me that the argument on here was whether the Pfizer vaccine has aborted baby cells in it, which your source also states that it does not.  

    If Pfizer did something unethical in testing the vaccine, that is not the same thing as saying it is in the vaccine.  Apples and oranges.  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #153 on: November 29, 2020, 01:30:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellato on November 29, 2020, 01:26:26 PM
    It seemed to me that the argument on here was whether the Pfizer vaccine has aborted baby cells in it, which your source also states that it does not.  

    If Pfizer did something unethical in testing the vaccine, that is not the same thing as saying it is in the vaccine.  Apples and oranges.  

    Apples to apples:

    Catholics cannot use vaccines which used aborted baby cells at any point in their development.

    Pfizer and Moderna both used aborted baby cells in their development.

    It makes no difference whether there are baby cells in the vaccine, or whether baby cells were used in development.

    Both disqualify the use of the vaccine.
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    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #154 on: November 29, 2020, 01:40:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 29, 2020, 01:30:55 PM
    Apples to apples:

    Catholics cannot use vaccines which used aborted baby cells at any point in their development.

    Pfizer and Moderna both used aborted baby cells in their development.

    It makes no difference whether there are baby cells in the vaccine, or whether baby cells were used in development.

    Both disqualify the use of the vaccine.
    Then people should be more clear, the argument then only focuses on the ethics of its development, not what is actually in the vaccine.

    Do you research the history of medical testing that goes into every pill you take or the safety testing that goes into so many products?  You might be surprised if you did.   Much evil was used to develop modern medicine and household chemicals and pesticides.

    You get no argument from me that it is always unethical to use an aborted baby to test on.   The debate is whether knowledge that is gained from that is always immoral to use.   Can good be drawn from evil so long as the evil is not approved of?   I am not arguing here, either, that this vaccine is good based on other reasons.  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #155 on: November 29, 2020, 01:50:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellato on November 29, 2020, 01:40:50 PM
    Then people should be more clear, the argument then only focuses on the ethics of its development, not what is actually in the vaccine.

    Do you research the history of medical testing that goes into every pill you take or the safety testing that goes into so many products?  You might be surprised if you did.   Much evil was used to develop modern medicine and household chemicals and pesticides.

    You get no argument from me that it is always unethical to use an aborted baby to test on.   The debate is whether knowledge that is gained from that is always immoral to use.   Can good be drawn from evil so long as the evil is not approved of?   I am not arguing here, either, that this vaccine is good based on other reasons.  

    Not really:

    Some vaccines contain fragments of human DNA/RNA right in the vaccine.  Others only in the development.  I'm not aware of any that contain DNA in neither.

    As regards my own personal due diligence, yes, I avoid any products containing or developed with HEK293.  If its in there without my knowledge, this is a non-issue, but as Fr. Scott pointed out (2000), we have a duty to try to inform ourselves; we cannot stay deliberately ignorant.  

    The easiest solution is to have an organic diet.

    PS: Note the similarity in the "this vaccine contains no abortive cells" and the same argument used by the food industry for the last 10 years: "This food was not made with fetal cells."  Its a mental reservation, but one which gets Catholics nowhere: Fetal cells WERE used in the development of these snacks and soft drinks, which is a disqualifier:

    https://fullfact.org/online/HEK-293-cells/
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #156 on: November 29, 2020, 01:56:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 29, 2020, 01:50:35 PM
    https://fullfact.org/online/HEK-293-cells/

    "When we asked them for comment Campbell’s, KraftHeinz and the Coca-Cola Company said they did not use products made by Senomyx or any flavourings developed using HEK-293 cells in any of their products.

    PepsiCo confirmed to us that they do collaborate with Senomyx on research, but that none of that research uses any human tissue or cell lines derived from embryos or foetuses.  [Dubious claim!]

    Nestlé did not respond to our questions."


    **Senomyx is a flavor enhancer developed with the use of HEK293 aborted fetal cells.
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    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #157 on: November 29, 2020, 02:06:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 29, 2020, 01:50:35 PM
    Not really:

    Some vaccines contain fragments of human DNA/RNA right in the vaccine.  Others only in the development.  I'm not aware of any that contain DNA in neither.

    As regards my own personal due diligence, yes, I avoid any products containing or developed with HEK293.  If its in there without my knowledge, this is a non-issue, but as Fr. Scott pointed out (2000), we have a duty to try to inform ourselves; we cannot stay deliberately ignorant.  

    The easiest solution is to have an organic diet.

    PS: Note the similarity in the "this vaccine contains no abortive cells" and the same argument used by the food industry for the last 10 years: "This food was not made with fetal cells."  Its a mental reservation, but one which gets Catholics nowhere: Fetal cells WERE used in the development of these snacks and soft drinks, which is a disqualifier:

    https://fullfact.org/online/HEK-293-cells/
    An unethical test is not the same as saying it's developed into the product itself.   An unethical test is an evil act.   The evil is continued and present if the fetal cells are actually used in the vaccine itself.   The evil act is over if it was used in a test.   Does this justify the test?  No.   But the evil is now over and knowledge was gained.   Is it lawful to use such knowledge so long as the evil is not consented to and the act itself as it stands in the present is not evil?  

    Nuclear research was developed to be use as weapon knowing that it would kill civilians, women and children along with military targets,as the blast and radiation emitted would clearly kill or gravely sicken a very large area unlike traditional explosives.   Testing was done on live humans without letting the test subjects know the serious risks.  Many were sickened by the test and died.  It was clearly an immoral act.  Do you turn on the lights from any energy produced by a nuclear reactor knowing its history?  

    I could give you hundreds of cases such as this.  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #158 on: November 29, 2020, 02:11:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellato on November 29, 2020, 02:06:24 PM
    An unethical test is not the same as saying it's developed into the product itself.   An unethical test is an evil act.   The evil is continued and present if the fetal cells are actually used in the vaccine itself.   The evil act is over if it was used in a test.   Does this justify the test?  No.   But the evil is now over and knowledge was gained.   Is it lawful to use such knowledge so long as the evil is not consented to and the act itself as it stands in the present is not evil?  

    "From a moral point of view, for every Catholic who intends to remain faithful to his or her Baptism, it is absolutely inadmissible to accept a vaccination that utilizes material coming from human fetuses in its process of production."  ++Vigano
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    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #159 on: November 29, 2020, 02:17:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 29, 2020, 02:11:49 PM
    "From a moral point of view, for every Catholic who intends to remain faithful to his or her Baptism, it is absolutely inadmissible to accept a vaccination that utilizes material coming from human fetuses in its process of production."  ++Vigano
    A test is not the same as the process of production.   
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #160 on: November 29, 2020, 02:24:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellato on November 29, 2020, 02:17:38 PM
    A test is not the same as the process of production.  
    Huh?  A test is part of the "process of production."
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    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #161 on: November 29, 2020, 02:33:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 29, 2020, 02:24:39 PM
    Huh?  A test is part of the "process of production."
    Process of production definition:

    "Process manufacturing is a production method that creates goods by combining supplies, ingredients or raw materials using a formula or recipe. It is frequently used in industries that produce bulk quantities of goods, such as food, beverages, refined oil, gasoline, pharmaceuticals, chemicals and plastics.
    The production process often requires a thermal or chemical conversion, such as with heat, time or pressure. As a result, a product created through process manufacturing cannot be disassembled into its constituent parts. For example, once it is produced, a soft drink cannot be broken down into its separate ingredients.
    Process manufacturing relies on the flow of sequential steps, with the completion of one step leading to the start of the next step. Process manufacturers often rely on tracing and scheduling tools and software to maintain peak operational efficiency."

    https://searcherp.techtarget.com/definition/process-manufacturing

    All other definitions you will find on process of production will be the same.   Product development and testing is not the same as process of production.  Production produces something by definition.  Testing is already completed prior to the process of production beginning to mass produce the product.  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #162 on: November 29, 2020, 02:46:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellato on November 29, 2020, 02:33:44 PM
    Process of production definition:

    "Process manufacturing is a production method that creates goods by combining supplies, ingredients or raw materials using a formula or recipe. It is frequently used in industries that produce bulk quantities of goods, such as food, beverages, refined oil, gasoline, pharmaceuticals, chemicals and plastics.
    The production process often requires a thermal or chemical conversion, such as with heat, time or pressure. As a result, a product created through process manufacturing cannot be disassembled into its constituent parts. For example, once it is produced, a soft drink cannot be broken down into its separate ingredients.
    Process manufacturing relies on the flow of sequential steps, with the completion of one step leading to the start of the next step. Process manufacturers often rely on tracing and scheduling tools and software to maintain peak operational efficiency."

    https://searcherp.techtarget.com/definition/process-manufacturing

    All other definitions you will find on process of production will be the same.   Product development and testing is not the same as process of production.  Production produces something by definition.  Testing is already completed prior to the process of production beginning to mass produce the product.  

    Umm, the article you quoted is about "process manufacturing."  It has nothing to do with the subject.  By "process of production," the bishops/cardinals are referring to the use of abortive fetal cells at any point between A-Z in the development of the vaccine.

    Pfizer and Moderna fail.
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    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #163 on: November 29, 2020, 04:34:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 29, 2020, 02:46:14 PM
    Umm, the article you quoted is about "process manufacturing."  It has nothing to do with the subject.  By "process of production," the bishops/cardinals are referring to the use of abortive fetal cells at any point between A-Z in the development of the vaccine.

    Pfizer and Moderna fail.
    You will have to prove your point in regards to your understanding of "process of production."  Do you care to provide a source which supports your idea that the process includes testing and research, and not actually the production process itself?  
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #164 on: November 29, 2020, 04:38:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 29, 2020, 09:26:21 AM
    The example of the martyrs says otherwise.

    They died the most horrific deaths rather than taking the shot/offering incense under physical compulsion.

    If there is a grave duty to refuse the shot, then the threat of bodily harm will not exempt one from culpability.
    Agreed-  I was talking about someone holding you down and injecting you against your will. That could be done as easily as a threatened shooting. Easier in fact
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