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Author Topic: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article  (Read 22391 times)

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Offline Bellato

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Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
« Reply #135 on: November 29, 2020, 11:46:08 AM »
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  • I looked up the new Pfizer vaccine and they don't use fetal cells:  https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/pfizer-covid-vaccine-not-created-with-fetal-cells/

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #136 on: November 29, 2020, 12:04:49 PM »
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  • Let's put the above into a more concrete example:
    .
    a.  Thieves kill a farmer and take hold of his tree farm.
    b.  They sell the trees for wood and make a lot of $.
    c.  Farmer #2 buys wood and burns it.
    d.  Farmer #2 uses the wood ash to grow vegetables on his farm.  He sells vegetables to make a living.
    .
    Is a person who buys vegetables from Farmer #2 guilty of the murder/theft of wood from Farmer #1?  
    .
    Is not the wood, which is tainted by sin, "destroyed" after it's burned and certainly after it's consumed by the soil?
    .
    At what point does the stolen wood no longer exist?
    .
    This is my question regarding the fetal cells.  And we're talking about CELLS on the molecular level.  Once they are mixed with a vaccine to create a strain, does not the vaccine (i.e. a living thing) destroy/consume the fetal cells, in order to thrive/grow into a culture, when is then made into a vaccine?  As this relates to the top example, i'm talking about steps 3-5.

    Refuted by this priest here:

    https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/VaccineFrCopenhagen.pdf
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #137 on: November 29, 2020, 12:25:18 PM »
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  • Sean, a vaccine is made partially from a virus, so Confederate’s question is important.  
    .
    Honestly, we need a good, orthodox, Catholic virologist to answer these scientific concerns.    
    Call me simple, but it's clear to this simple Catholic that the use of a product predicated on the use of a deliberate killing of an innocent human life is morally wrong.
    Much else is wrong with these vaccines and/or hydrogel patches imbedded with DNA or RNA. It may be that Holy God is protecting His children and warning us against putting these satanic, NWO, Bill Gates Trojan Horses into our bodies by the knowledge that babies were electively aborted in order to create them.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #138 on: November 29, 2020, 12:26:16 PM »
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  • It is difficult to imagine the SSPX panel actually considering they might be wrong, given all the SSPX has already done in enforcing the use of abortive vaccines.

    My own priest referenced the article at Mass today, saying it was good the article was removed, and that it caused much consternation, but not because it contained any errors, but because it was not comprehensive enough.

    This makes it sound to me like they are just going to fortify their position by addressing issues the original article did not, but we will see.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #139 on: November 29, 2020, 12:29:25 PM »
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  • Refuted by this priest here:

    https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/VaccineFrCopenhagen.pdf
    This article also decimates the circuмstantial permissibility of remote indirect cooperation in evil argument as well:

    “In determining the moral liceity of using vaccines derived from abortion, an assessment of cooperation with evil in terms of distance from the original abortion is a necessary but ultimately insufficient criterion because there is another distinct and more immediate category of sin involved. To conclude, as some have, that there is only mediate remote material cooperation in abortion by the vaccine recipient is a red herring. It shifts emphasis away from the specific moral character of possessing and using the cell line itself toward “historical association” with the original abortion, obscuring the central problem while even causing it to go unnamed. The recipient is an immediate participant in the commission of continuous theft of human remains obtained through deliberate killing, their desecration through exploitation and trafficking, as well as ultimate omission to respectfully bury them. While the original killing establishes the illicit character of using the remains, their possession and use becomes a distinct evil in itself, the circuмstances of which do not cease as a form of theft, desecration, exploitation, and refusal to bury, regardless of the consumer’s  in time from the abortion, or the number of cell divisions, or the merely sub-cellular fragmentary inclusion of the child’s DNA and protein in the final dose.

    Two sanitizing mischaracterizations contribute to this unwarranted shift in emphasis away from immediate continuing theft toward “historic” completed abortion. Firstly, the broadness of labelling human remains obtained through violence as “illicit biological material” is not only insufficient but dehumanizing and offensive. Although the vast majority if not all of the cells currently used did not physically constitute part of the child’s original body, these cells still belong to the child. They are a living remnant of the child’s life in this world. If they are not the child’s cells then whose cell’s are they? Is it possible to stretch jargon so far as to say that these are no one’s cells? No person donating their tissue for cell culture and knowingly encountering the resultant cells in a lab would identify them as anything other than “my DNA, my cells.” The child has been silenced, the parents have forfeited by abortion any right of consent to respectful scientific use of the body, the scientists and patent holders have no right to possess or use the cells: these human remains belong to God, must be respectfully reposed, and it is not for Caesar to say otherwise.

    Secondly, “historical distance” from the abortion does not distance us from the possession of something stolen. If I am the beneficiary of a violent bank robbery where the clerk was murdered to secure funds, my personal distance from the robbery does not make it licit to possess or spend those funds or even other monies made playing the stock market with them. If this is the case with lifeless currency, how much more with the body of an innocent human being. If a copyrighted film is captured, reproduced, and sold through the internet, it does not somehow become licit to possess and use it simply because it has been copied many times over from the original, even if I have provided the means of copying, storage, and playback. The copyright protected item is the original artistic creation. Our artist is the Divine Author of human nature who produces a unique biological and spiritual work in His own image and likeness. It is absurd to say to public consumers that everyone must indefinitely use stolen work to help lessen the likelihood of a potential future problem even though a perfectly fine substitute can be easily and ethically provided. How much more with cannibalizing human remains obtained through violence. No one is bound to participate in one sin in order to avoid another. It is never permissible to do evil for a good purpose.”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #140 on: November 29, 2020, 12:31:48 PM »
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  • I don't buy the priest's logic that the cellular/DNA level is the same substance as the aborted child.  In my mind, it's arguable that the child's fetal tissue has undergone a substantial change and no longer exists. 
    .
    The Church teaches that 15 minutes after we receive Holy Communion, that Our Lord's body no longer exists, as it has been dissolved, and we can eat food.  But doesn't Our Lord's DNA still exist in our bodies, according to the priest's logic?  Thus, we can never eat food again?  Of course, that's ridiculous.  Once something undergoes a substantial change, then the original thing no longer exists.  As I see it, it's arguable that a baby's body undergoes 1 substantial change, and possibly 3!
    .
    1) fetal cells removed from the body.  Once a cell is removed from the body, it's no longer part of the human being.
    2) those fetal cells mixed with a virus to create a new strain.  It could be argued that the virus absorbs these cells, so the fetal cells no longer exist.
    3) the new virus is replicated many times.  This new substance is certainly not the original baby, even if the DNA is similar.  A copy is not the same thing as the original.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #141 on: November 29, 2020, 12:38:01 PM »
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  • I don't buy the priest's logic that the cellular/DNA level is the same substance as the aborted child.  In my mind, it's arguable that the child's fetal tissue has undergone a substantial change and no longer exists.  
    .
    The Church teaches that 15 minutes after we receive Holy Communion, that Our Lord's body no longer exists, as it has been dissolved, and we can eat food.  But doesn't Our Lord's DNA still exist in our bodies, according to the priest's logic?  Thus, we can never eat food again?  Of course, that's ridiculous.  Once something undergoes a substantial change, then the original thing no longer exists.  As I see it, it's arguable that a baby's body undergoes 1 substantial change, and possibly 3!
    .
    1) fetal cells removed from the body.  Once a cell is removed from the body, it's no longer part of the human being.
    2) those fetal cells mixed with a virus to create a new strain.  It could be argued that the virus absorbs these cells, so the fetal cells no longer exist.
    3) the new virus is replicated many times.  This new substance is certainly not the original baby, even if the DNA is similar.  A copy is not the same thing as the original.
    Keep reaching.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #142 on: November 29, 2020, 12:40:45 PM »
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  • It is difficult to imagine the SSPX panel actually considering they might be wrong, given all the SSPX has already done in enforcing the use of abortive vaccines.

    My own priest referenced the article at Mass today, saying it was good the article was removed, and that it caused much consternation, but not because it contained any errors, but because it was not comprehensive enough.

    This makes it sound to me like they are just going to fortify their position by addressing issues the original article did not, but we will see.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6826603/Kentucky-teen-refuses-chickenpox-vaccine-SUES-school.html?ico=amp-comments-addcomment#article-6826603
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #143 on: November 29, 2020, 12:41:09 PM »
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  • It’s basic philosophy

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #145 on: November 29, 2020, 12:51:09 PM »
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  • I’m not saying I disagree with the conclusion that using fetal cells is wrong.  I’m simply trying to understand the logic.  So far, none of the articles has satisfactorily explained the issue in the details required. 


    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #146 on: November 29, 2020, 12:57:50 PM »
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  • Here is another source that states that the Pfizer vaccine does not use fetal cells or any cells at all for that matter:  https://aleteia.org/2020/11/09/pfizers-new-coronavirus-vaccine-was-not-created-with-fetal-cells-from-aborted-babies/

    I think it's an interesting debate on the matter of cells, but this is the vaccine being approved right now, not the others, and it doesn't use fetal cells in its development or have fetal cells in it.

    Another debate could be whether the risk is worth the benefit, or whether there is something more sinister going on regarding vaccines, but the fetal cell debate is not part of the debate over this vaccine.   

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #147 on: November 29, 2020, 12:58:47 PM »
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  • The Church teaches that 15 minutes after we receive Holy Communion, that Our Lord's body no longer exists, as it has been dissolved, and we can eat food.  But doesn't Our Lord's DNA still exist in our bodies, according to the priest's logic? 

    Hardly.  Christ's DNA was never actually in us, since that pertains to the accidents and not the substance of Our Lord's body.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #148 on: November 29, 2020, 01:05:55 PM »
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  • Here is another source that states that the Pfizer vaccine does not use fetal cells or any cells at all for that matter:  https://aleteia.org/2020/11/09/pfizers-new-coronavirus-vaccine-was-not-created-with-fetal-cells-from-aborted-babies/

    I think it's an interesting debate on the matter of cells, but this is the vaccine being approved right now, not the others, and it doesn't use fetal cells in its development or have fetal cells in it.

    Another debate could be whether the risk is worth the benefit, or whether there is something more sinister going on regarding vaccines, but the fetal cell debate is not part of the debate over this vaccine.  

    Here's one acknowledging the exact opposite: https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2020/11/use-of-pfizer-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-is-morally-acceptable-say-bishops/

    “They are not completely free from any connection to abortion, however, as both Pfizer and Moderna made use of a tainted cell line for one of the confirmatory lab tests of their products."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #149 on: November 29, 2020, 01:07:56 PM »
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  • I looked up the new Pfizer vaccine and they don't use fetal cells:  https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/pfizer-covid-vaccine-not-created-with-fetal-cells/

    Yes, it does (and so does the Moderna one):

    https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2020/11/use-of-pfizer-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-is-morally-acceptable-say-bishops/

    “They are not completely free from any connection to abortion, however, as both Pfizer and Moderna made use of a tainted cell line for one of the confirmatory lab tests of their products."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."