Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article  (Read 22654 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline confederate catholic

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 823
  • Reputation: +304/-44
  • Gender: Male
Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2020, 03:21:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The vaccine uses stem cells, stem cells also develop into specific cells in which one grows the material ( in this case viral RNA) which once used ceases to be cellular material from the original stem cell.  The genetic material from the original stem cell after being specialized no longer has the original material no matter what is being developed. 1st gen usage of the original stem cells contained all the material but after constant manipulation it's no longer the same
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #16 on: November 26, 2020, 03:22:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sean, a vaccine is made partially from a virus, so Confederate’s question is important.  
    .
    Honestly, we need a good, orthodox, Catholic virologist to answer these scientific concerns.    

    As far as I can tell, CC is suggesting the virus will change over time, thereby making the indirect voluntary act of using abortive vaccines less culpable (ie., more remote cooperation in evil than for those using the previous rendition).

    But I am saying that is irrelevant:

    The HEK293 remains unchanged, regardless of how many mutations the virus undergoes.
    PS: This logic is faulty anyway, as it would conclude that using abortive fetal cells in vaccines from the 1972 abortion is more remote (therefore less culpable) than using vaccines developed with the aid of aborted fetal matter from the 1985 aborted foetus.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline confederate catholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 823
    • Reputation: +304/-44
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #17 on: November 26, 2020, 03:27:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • These are important questions and unfortunately the only ones working in the field updating material are the National and Pontifical Bioethics institutes.
    I can say that science has created ethical questions which can not always be answered with my old medico-moral ethics books and learning. Most of the principals remain but many points of what can be done were based upon the limits of the day
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline confederate catholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 823
    • Reputation: +304/-44
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #18 on: November 26, 2020, 03:28:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes it does
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline confederate catholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 823
    • Reputation: +304/-44
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #19 on: November 26, 2020, 03:31:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If the 1st replication contained 98% of the original material and 20th contained 50% and the 95th contained 20% and the 200th contained 0% then yes this is the case. Virus use the genetic material available to replicate it changes everytime it makes a copy since it is in a new host
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #20 on: November 26, 2020, 03:41:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If the 1st replication contained 98% of the original material and 20th contained 50% and the 95th contained 20% and the 200th contained 0% then yes this is the case. Virus use the genetic material available to replicate it changes everytime it makes a copy since it is in a new host

    Even if it were true that none of the COVID19 vaccines were developed using HEK293 (which it is not), the entire discussion of remote/indirect cooperation in evil in this context is subterfuge:

    The cooperation is direct, as Fr./Dr. Peter Scott stated:

    “However, the vaccine is not just an indirect effect of the abortion.  There is, in fact, a direct line of causality from the abortion to the available fetal cells, to the development of the vaccine, to the immunization.  Therefore, the immunization is a direct consequence of the abortion, and not just an indirect effect.”

    The greater or lesser “remoteness” is irrelevant.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline confederate catholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 823
    • Reputation: +304/-44
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #21 on: November 26, 2020, 03:54:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No it's not. Again if no original material exists this is not the case.
    The argument that you wish to make is simple and valid if worded as 'the usage of any portion of an aborted child is repugnant" end of story end of argument.

    This however is not the way some see this and denying the usage of a thing is based upon principals of Medico-Moral teaching. Most are not equipped to do so, this the Church set up institutes to answer the questions.

    You can not pretend that a simple knowledge of Moral theology suffices,
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #22 on: November 26, 2020, 04:08:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No it's not. Again if no original material exists this is not the case.
    The argument that you wish to make is simple and valid if worded as 'the usage of any portion of an aborted child is repugnant" end of story end of argument.

    This however is not the way some see this and denying the usage of a thing is based upon principals of Medico-Moral teaching. Most are not equipped to do so, this the Church set up institutes to answer the questions.

    You can not pretend that a simple knowledge of Moral theology suffices,
    Fr. Scott is also a medical doctor.

    Additionally, none of the prelates (Vigano, Burke, Schneider, Strickland, et al) are seeing this issue from your perspective.  They are all saying we can never use vaccines which used abortive fetal matter at any stage of their development.

    That is a rejection of the remoteness argument you are making, and a complete disregard for how much HEK293 is in today’s vaccines.

    Ps: Not that it matters, but you also never proved your contention that today’s vaccines contain no HEK293.  You simply made the assertion.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11934
    • Reputation: +7294/-500
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #23 on: November 26, 2020, 04:17:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fr. Scott is also a medical doctor.
    With respect, Sean, I believe that Fr Scott was a medicine student at one point in his life, but did not complete the training. Not that that disqualifies him at all.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #24 on: November 26, 2020, 04:29:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • With respect, Sean, I believe that Fr Scott was a medicine student at one point in his life, but did not complete the training. Not that that disqualifies him at all.
    Oof, it seems you are right.  Thank you for that important correction!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline confederate catholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 823
    • Reputation: +304/-44
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #25 on: November 26, 2020, 05:27:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1 you do realize that the cells in question are  all from a cloned cell

    Quote
    After many attempts, cell growth took off only several months after the isolation of a single transformed clone.


    Hek231 is not used in the Moderna vaccine

    Quote
    293 cell lines are known to have been transformed with an adenoviral sequence that integrated on chromosome 19 (ref. 4 and see below). A 332.5-kbp genomic region containing the adenoviral sequence insertion site has been amplified in all sequenced 293 cell lines:

    Quote
    Many polymorphisms and several copy number alterations were found in these genes, sometimes in all of the 293-derived lines but mostly in just a few of them.

    This is before usage

    WI-38 and MRC-5 are much more problematic.

    Last time I looked the prelates you mentioned are NO, so you can quote NO prelates who agree with you but the theologians who actually deal with Bioethics we can just ignore



    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا


    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1589
    • Reputation: +1294/-100
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #26 on: November 26, 2020, 05:37:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • With respect, Sean, I believe that Fr Scott was a medicine student at one point in his life, but did not complete the training. Not that that disqualifies him at all.
    For the record, Fr Scott did indeed complete his medical training, but as you say, Nadir, this contributes little to the argument.

    Offline confederate catholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 823
    • Reputation: +304/-44
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #27 on: November 26, 2020, 05:38:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You have the cell
    The cell is cloned.
    The DNA of the cloned cell is replicated.
    The opposite DNA sequence is created
    This sequence is then used.

    All this happens before the new sequence is used to create another sequence with the desired characteristics for use to then replicate.

    This happens over and over.

    This can be done with any stem cell.
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline confederate catholic

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 823
    • Reputation: +304/-44
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #28 on: November 26, 2020, 06:02:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Again, I am not weighing in on objections to vaccines, not valid moral objections to them but I will object to badly thought out medico-moral theology 
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Fr. Chazal on SSPX/COVID19 Vaccinations Article
    « Reply #29 on: November 26, 2020, 06:52:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1 you do realize that the cells in question are  all from a cloned cell

    Hek231 is not used in the Moderna vaccine

    This is before usage

    WI-38 and MRC-5 are much more problematic.

    Last time I looked the prelates you mentioned are NO, so you can quote NO prelates who agree with you but the theologians who actually deal with Bioethics we can just ignore
    None of which would have been possible without an abortion.
    Umm, you know some traditionalist “bioethicists?”
    Who are they?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."