That goes for everyone else here as well, right?

I get the distinct impression that some here are all talk and when push comes to shove they'll suddenly change their tune.

I've been thinking about the cloning aspect and I'm more inclined to think that cloning the aborted fetal cells is the difference maker.  You can't kill someone more than once, right?  So, you can't commit the act of murder more than once.
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1.  Abortion happens - Intrinsic evil, sin #1
2.  Body parts sold - Sin #2, but not intrinsically evil and a different type than #1.
3.  Body parts used by scientists to isolate fetal cells for various medicines - Morally a sin, but the purpose is for good.
4.  Fetal cells copied so they can be used many times in the future.  This would be morally wrong, but it's not murder.  It's immoral, similar to in-vitro fertilization.
5.  Fetal cells mixed with a virus to grow a strain for a vaccine.  This may not be wrong at all.
6.  Whatever fetal cell molecules still exist (? unknown?) in this new strain, this creates a vaccine.  May not be wrong.
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I know this is veering off the original topic of the thread, but my mind is still reeling at the thought that Catholics are so trying to find an “out” for taking this vaccine, (for which IMO there are many, many excellent reasons to refuse them, way beyond the question of aborted fetal cells) that the question has even arisen whether it was “mortal sin” or not to take the Oath under Henry VIII.  

Leaving aside the question of vaccines entirely, and leaving aside whether to take Henry VIII’s Oath was “mortal sin” or not, just a few considerations:

- I was always taught that it was better that the whole world should be destroyed than that one commit any sin, venial or mortal.  In better days of the SSPX, I remember the example a priest gave where if there was a button, and let’s say some evil villain said, “commit [some] venial sin, or I will press this button and the whole world will be blown to smithereens,” you are not allowed to commit even that venial sin.

- In hearing stories of martyrs throughout Church history, I’ve seen examples, e.g. in Roman times, where 9/10 accepted martyrdom, while the other 1/10 person accepted the promise of “we won’t kill you if you [commit this sin of apostasy]”, and then the Romans proceeded to kill that 10th person anyway.  I’ve heard similar stories from Communist revolutions such as Spain or Mexico.  The implication in these stories was such that the Communists wanted to kill said Catholic after committing the mortal sin, because they want the soul to go to hell.  Of course, God will judge / has judged where these individual souls went, but the point of the stories from the standpoint of the Church always seemed to me that we must stand firm, as Pax has said so well in his posts.  

- If we take the example of Henry VIII asking the bishops & others like Thomas More to take the Oath:  Was it posed thusly: “Take this Oath or you will be executed”?  Because even Bp. Fisher and Thomas More were put in the Tower for a while; they had to fabricate an excuse at TM’s trial to finally put him to death.  I don’t know precisely what threat was posed for not taking the Oath initially, but apparently it was not death.  

- Given how world history changed dramatically, and NOT for the better, after all the bishops except St. John Fisher took the Oath, are we really to sit around thinking, “well, those bishops didn’t commit mortal sin for taking the Oath. After all, they were ‘forced’ to do it.”?  [With some penalty less than death.]  Was it thus okay for them to do it?  How many souls have been lost since then, because those bishops (whatever their subjective level of sin, wherever they ended up in eternity) caved, and did not stand up for what they knew was right?  And even the average layman:  How many souls have been lost since then, because all of their progeny were protestant, because they were “forced” to apostatize?

- I could also mention that many people were martyred, not because of something ‘forced’ on them, such as “take this Oath or we’ll kill you”, but even just to receive Sacraments.  Given the Covid1984/AD2020 standard of “The Governor mandated that churches should be closed, so you are dispensed of your Sunday obligation, and thus can just livestream Mass or read your missal”, why would anyone have ever risked going into the catacombs or going to St. Edmund Campion’s Mass, or any other such “illegal” activity?  

In the movie A Man for All Seasons, there's a scene where Meg tries to get TM to take the Oath:

More: But look now: If we lived in a state where virtue was profitable, common sense would make us saintly. But since we see that avarice, anger, pride and stupidity commonly profit far beyond charity, modesty, justice, and thought, perhaps we must stand fast a little, even at the risk of being heroes.
Margaret: But in reason!  Haven't you done as much as God can reasonably want?
More: Well, finally it isn't a matter of reason. Finally, it's a matter of love.

Instead of always thinking, "is it mortal sin or not?" as some sort of fire insurance (i.e. avoiding hell), do we ever think of these things in terms of what would be most pleasing to God?   What does He really will?    

I do understand why folks want to know where is the cutoff between morally acceptable vs. sin (and I include here venial sin:  better to accept death, loss of livelihood, children taken away, or any other suffering, than to commit one venial sin).  I really do.  And they are important questions.  But I would prefer to see less quibbling to find an excuse to do whatever this antichrist NWO is asking us to do, as long as it is not mortal sin, and more encouragement to resist this antichrist NWO in every way possible, because we love Our Lord and His reign.  I would love to see threads asking 'what can we all do to resist this antichrist tyranny?'  Imagine if every Catholic in Henry VIII’s England had said, “No, I will NOT take the Oath.”  Imagine the difference then, and all the history since then.  Instead of thinking, “how far can I go individually, save my own individual skin, and still avoid the fires of hell?”  …  picture how much easier it is for this antichrist NWO to create the dystopia we’re facing if each of us individually goes along with it as far as we can without mortal sin/going to hell, vs how much harder for them if all Catholics collectively resisted it tooth & nail.  

Imagine Catholics actually standing up for the rights of Christ the King, because we love Him, instead of asking, “how far can I go before it’s mortal sin?”

This might be the most edifying and beautiful post I have ever read on Cathinfo.

God will bless you for having written it.

Yes, very inspiring. Thank you for that!

The above 5 steps are not dependent upon abortion.  For step 1, you could substitute "placenta taken from a live birth" and the scientific process of isolating the fetal cells would be similar.
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The point is, even if the intention of steps 1-2 is abortion, I would argue that after step 3 the intention no longer matters.  Once the fetal cells are isolated, then the connection to murder is gone.  The resulting fetal cells are just cells.  Morally indifferent.  They could come from the placenta or an abortion.  Steps 4-6 are just scientific experimentation; has nothing to do with the cells origin.

Because of Step 4...the cells are copied and mass produced.  A copied cell is not the same thing as the original.

Because of Step 4...the cells are copied and mass produced.  A copied cell is not the same thing as the original.