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Author Topic: Fr. Chazal on Frs. Suelo, Elijah, Kramer, Hewko, and Bishop Ambrose Moran  (Read 6886 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Fr. Chazal on Frs. Suelo, Elijah, Kramer, Hewko, and Bishop Ambrose Moran
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2016, 06:55:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica
    What is confusing in this post is that Fr. Chazal says that he will agree with Fr. Kramer when BXVI passes away.


    I take this as a bit of a joke.  When BXVI passes, then neither Fr. Chazal nor Fr. Kramer will believe that BXVI is the pope.  So they would be in agreement then.  It's just like when a V2 Pope dies we all become sedevacantists for a brief time and everyone has non una cuм Masses.  I actually took some real comfort during the brief sedevacante periods between John Paul II/Benedict XVI and then Benedict XVI/Francis that all Catholics were united on the Pope question.  Felt really good.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Fr. Chazal on Frs. Suelo, Elijah, Kramer, Hewko, and Bishop Ambrose Moran
    « Reply #16 on: January 26, 2016, 07:01:06 PM »
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  • If +Williamson and/or +Faure feel the need to have a younger bishop join the episcopal ranks, then I wholeheartedly recommend Father Chazal.  He would have been my choice to head up the SSPX-SO (when first constituted after the "Vienna delcaration").  I personally know all but one of the priests in that first group and consider him the most qualified to lead.


    Offline Raphaela

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    Fr. Chazal on Frs. Suelo, Elijah, Kramer, Hewko, and Bishop Ambrose Moran
    « Reply #17 on: January 26, 2016, 10:02:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Paul FHC
    Indeed. I believe that this position is more in line with the thinking of St. Bellarmine, John of St. Thomas, and Suarez. That the Pope may very well have lost his papacy but that, he will not be deposed until some council comes along to depose him.

    The problem with sedevacantists, which they don't seem able to see, is that they take an opinion of Bellarmine's, for example, and reject the other theologians' opinions. They make a dogma out of Bellarmine's opinion and act on it, i.e. put it into the Church's magisterium on their own authority. This is what Archbishop Lefebvre refused to do, being a good theologian. His position wasn't his own choice, but a logical necessity.

    Isn't this simple and obvious?

    There are some sedevacantist priests in Europe who recognise this, but say that Traditionalists, being the only Catholics left, and there being no Pope or hierarchy, can really decide what the Church's magisterium now is and can truly add new definitions.

    Indeed, this is the only logical and honest way of being a sedevacantist (an ecclesiavacantist). Otherwise it's just the theological error of making a private opinion into a dogma.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Fr. Chazal on Frs. Suelo, Elijah, Kramer, Hewko, and Bishop Ambrose Moran
    « Reply #18 on: January 27, 2016, 02:06:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Centroamerica
    What is confusing in this post is that Fr. Chazal says that he will agree with Fr. Kramer when BXVI passes away.


    I take this as a bit of a joke.  



    Ok. I can see that. He has a good sense of humor from what I have seen. That makes sense.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Raphaela

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    Fr. Chazal on Frs. Suelo, Elijah, Kramer, Hewko, and Bishop Ambrose Moran
    « Reply #19 on: January 27, 2016, 02:58:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus

     He says that they have completely lost authority due to heresy.  He calls the V2 Popes heretics, says they have lost authority (formal possession of the papacy), but remain materially in the See until disposed of by competent authority.  


    This is sedeprivationism, a belief developed by Fr. Guerard des Lauriers OP, Professor of Marian Theology at Econe in the 70's. When he tried to teach it to the seminarians during the beginning of term retreat in 1977, Archbishop Lefebvre sacked him the same day, and he was never allowed back to Econe.
    He was consecrated a bishop by Thuc in 1978, having temporarily become a sedevacantist, then he returned to sedeprivationism.

    "He [Guerard des Lauriers] further developed his beliefs on the current state of the papacy, relying on Cardinal Cajetan and St. Robert Bellarmine, arguing that Pope Paul VI, as a result of his heresy, was not a true pope, being only pope materially (papa materialiter) and not formally, known as the "Cassiciacuм thesis".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel-Louis_Gu%C3%A9rard_des_Lauriers

    If Fr Chazal really believes this, he will have to abandon any belief in Fatima, as there is no Pope to consecrate Russia. A merely material pope won't do!

    It's a pity Fr Chazal has got mixed up in this.


    Offline Franciscan Solitary

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    Fr. Chazal on Frs. Suelo, Elijah, Kramer, Hewko, and Bishop Ambrose Moran
    « Reply #20 on: January 27, 2016, 03:35:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy
    Quote from: Franciscan Solitary
     there is then a great deal of hard work to be done.
     


    Can you explain what you mean?  What can be done that isn't already being done?

    An immense question and surely larger than life for a blog comment.  In general what is not being done is the embrace of the Holy Cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ.  It is a selfish refusal to face up to the role of tragedy in Christendom and her divine history.  It is the exclusion of the predominant aristocratic Roman element from our Catholic education and civilisation.  

    In our religion the Trinity is broadly present among us through the Roman Catholic Three Estates, in which the common people show forth the Holy Ghost, the clergy shows forth the Father and the nobility or warrior class shows forth Our Lord Himself.  Since the human race is redeemed and human beings saved specifically by Our Lord, for we humans He is much the most important among the three persons of the Blessed Trinity.  Especially in practical terms.

    Therefore for the Traditional Catholics noblesse oblige.   Much is expected from those to whom so much has been given.  Like it or not, we have the glory and burden of being the divine nobility of the sad and forlorn human race.  That is the actual reality of our situation in these singularly apocalyptic end times.  We are gravely duty-bound to establish a functioning Roman Catholic episcopacy with its associated Catholic education and civilisation.  Our laymen have the gravest possible moral obligation to ensure the military security of our entire Roman Folk or Christian People of God.

    Is that being done or do we instead see mostly clever manoeuvrings for career purposes showing little more intelligence than those who might have put their entire effort into rearranging the deck chairs on the inexorably sinking H.M.S. Titanic?  One must rest one's case.  The evidence is clear...

    We have sufficient numbers of Roman Catholic bishops, mostly outside the Novus Ordo organisation.  We have sufficient Catholic Nationalist leaders as well.  Therefore enough of this senile nonsense that so much resembles the counting of the numbers of angels on the heads of pins.  There is much serious work for adult Catholic men and women to be doing.  Episcopacy, education, health care, military security, the innumerable facets of our Roman Catholic civilisation, the work is there to be done.

    But that would require Traditional Catholics to abandon the illusory comforts of feigned fideist imbecility and to remove the narrow blinders placed on us by the sterile and cowardly false pride of rationalism.  In other words, by a virtually Anabaptist Pentecostalism and by Jansenism.  It would require the apostolic courage to be the true nobility of this world and thereby pick up our Crosses and follow Our Lord in His divine and fearless warrior nobility.

    In our time, in this fierce 21st Century, nothing less will do.

     

    Offline AJNC

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    Fr. Chazal on Frs. Suelo, Elijah, Kramer, Hewko, and Bishop Ambrose Moran
    « Reply #21 on: January 28, 2016, 12:02:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    If +Williamson and/or +Faure feel the need to have a younger bishop join the episcopal ranks, then I wholeheartedly recommend Father Chazal.  He would have been my choice to head up the SSPX-SO (when first constituted after the "Vienna delcaration").  I personally know all but one of the priests in that first group and consider him the most qualified to lead.


    I disagree. I experienced his apostolate first hand in India for seven years. That isn't to say that he did not have his fans here.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Fr. Chazal on Frs. Suelo, Elijah, Kramer, Hewko, and Bishop Ambrose Moran
    « Reply #22 on: January 28, 2016, 07:56:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raphaela
    This is sedeprivationism, a belief developed by Fr. Guerard des Lauriers OP, Professor of Marian Theology at Econe in the 70's.


    Of course it is.  I started a thread called something like "Father Chazal Sedeprivationist."  Father Chazal would never admit this even though the position he articulated is substantially identical to that of sedeprivationism.

    Quote
    If Fr Chazal really believes this, he will have to abandon any belief in Fatima, as there is no Pope to consecrate Russia. A merely material pope won't do!


    Silly.  There's nothing to stop a material pope from becoming a formal pope at any time.  That is in fact one of the most consoling consequences of sedeprivationism, which eliminates most of the objections against sedevacantism, and it's based on some very very solid theology by Bishop Guerard des Lauriers.


    Offline Raphaela

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    Fr. Chazal on Frs. Suelo, Elijah, Kramer, Hewko, and Bishop Ambrose Moran
    « Reply #23 on: January 28, 2016, 10:49:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Raphaela
    This is sedeprivationism, a belief developed by Fr. Guerard des Lauriers OP, Professor of Marian Theology at Econe in the 70's.


    Of course it is.  I started a thread called something like "Father Chazal Sedeprivationist."  Father Chazal would never admit this even though the position he articulated is substantially identical to that of sedeprivationism.

    Quote
    If Fr Chazal really believes this, he will have to abandon any belief in Fatima, as there is no Pope to consecrate Russia. A merely material pope won't do!


    Silly.  There's nothing to stop a material pope from becoming a formal pope at any time.  That is in fact one of the most consoling consequences of sedeprivationism, which eliminates most of the objections against sedevacantism, and it's based on some very very solid theology by Bishop Guerard des Lauriers.


    Not so silly. You make it sound as if the Pope can pop in and out like a man in a Swiss weather house.

    And the arguments are not so solid. Archbishop Lefebvre rejected it, writing that he preferred "a higher wisdom" to the "logical theories" of Guerard des Lauriers - he prefered "the logic of charity and prudence".  

    It became a sort of cult among the more intellectually ambitious seminarians at Econe in the 70's, but in the end, I think only four priests, all Italian, ever held the position, and one, Fr Nitoglio, gave it up and now supports the Resistance. The three others have the episcopus vagans Geert Stuyver as their bishop. That's as far as they've got after 35 years!

    Online Ladislaus

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    Fr. Chazal on Frs. Suelo, Elijah, Kramer, Hewko, and Bishop Ambrose Moran
    « Reply #24 on: January 28, 2016, 07:44:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raphaela
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Raphaela
    This is sedeprivationism, a belief developed by Fr. Guerard des Lauriers OP, Professor of Marian Theology at Econe in the 70's.


    Of course it is.  I started a thread called something like "Father Chazal Sedeprivationist."  Father Chazal would never admit this even though the position he articulated is substantially identical to that of sedeprivationism.

    Quote
    If Fr Chazal really believes this, he will have to abandon any belief in Fatima, as there is no Pope to consecrate Russia. A merely material pope won't do!


    Silly.  There's nothing to stop a material pope from becoming a formal pope at any time.  That is in fact one of the most consoling consequences of sedeprivationism, which eliminates most of the objections against sedevacantism, and it's based on some very very solid theology by Bishop Guerard des Lauriers.


    Not so silly. You make it sound as if the Pope can pop in and out like a man in a Swiss weather house.


    I don't make it sound like anything.  According to the principles of sedeprivationism any pope in material succession can at some point convert and resume formal exercise of the office.  So there's nothing to prevent a Fatima consecration in the sedeprivationist framework.  You're claiming that sedeprivationism rules out a consecration to Russia by a legitimate pope.  It does not.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Fr. Chazal on Frs. Suelo, Elijah, Kramer, Hewko, and Bishop Ambrose Moran
    « Reply #25 on: January 28, 2016, 08:12:35 PM »
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  • I have read the comments from Fr. Chazal that Ladislaus is referring to, but maybe Ladislaus would like to post them here for other readers who are reading his affirmations on this thread and thinking he is drawing up conclusions without any basis?
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...