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Author Topic: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023  (Read 13022 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2023, 04:59:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on December 15, 2023, 04:34:45 PM
    Here is the first conference where he made it evident that he did not accept Jorge Bergoglio as pope:

    Since his groundbreaking letter of June 9, 2020, he has not once referred to Bergoglio as the Pope, Holy Father, or even Francis (except once when it was sarcastic), and constantly referred to a Bergoglio Church as distinct from the Catholic Church.  I think he's been weighing this for a few years now and leaning in this direction until he could come up with a theological explanation for the position.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #46 on: December 15, 2023, 05:38:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on December 15, 2023, 04:33:30 PM
    Here is an X post Archbishop Vigano made on Oct. 3, 2023:



    Thanks CK. No doubt about it, the first speech was emphatic enough, but he covered himself by saying "I'm just asking the question". But he was clearly doing more than that. But now he has confirmed his position in no uncertain terms. It is not the position of the Resistance, which has clearly always been that not only can we not make the declaration due to lack of authority, but also we cannot make the definitive judgement which is also for the Church. Please don't make this a thread for debating that, I'm just stating the position. It is obvious from the fact that so many sedevacantists are getting excited about AB Vigano that his position is not the Resistance position. So, will they work together? Behind the scenes I think yes, but openly... hmmm... I think there will be another split if that eventuates. What do you all think?????
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    Online Persto

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #47 on: December 15, 2023, 05:50:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 15, 2023, 02:45:35 PM
    Here is what Fr Jenkins has to say about Vigano's announcement of his new seminary.  It is interesting that he doesn't even bring up the need for a conditional consecration.

    Around the 32:20 mark:


    Thank you for posting this 2Vermont. At mark 35:42 Fr. Jenkins brings up Vigano's Opus Dei relationships/contacts and the legitimate concerns on the part of people who think Vigano could be leading others down a dead end. He points out Vigano's involvement with the Cancelled Priests movement and its apparent disintegration. Mark 39:39 Fr. Jenkins says if OD is behind Vigano that is reason for serious misgivings about him.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #48 on: December 15, 2023, 10:46:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Persto on December 15, 2023, 05:50:24 PM
    Thank you for posting this 2Vermont. At mark 35:42 Fr. Jenkins brings up Vigano's Opus Dei relationships/contacts and the legitimate concerns on the part of people who think Vigano could be leading others down a dead end. He points out Vigano's involvement with the Cancelled Priests movement and its apparent disintegration. Mark 39:39 Fr. Jenkins says if OD is behind Vigano that is reason for serious misgivings about him.

    And the haters will keep hating no matter what +Vigano does.
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    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #49 on: December 16, 2023, 12:03:38 AM »
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #50 on: December 16, 2023, 08:22:16 AM »
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    • I would hesitate to call +Vigano a "Bishop for the Resistance", except loosely, as Father Chazal laid it out, in terms of what he believes, and the Resistance is a loose term to begin with rather than some kind of formal organization.  +Vigano doesn't quite mesh with the Resistance in having publicly stated that Jorge is not the pope.

    Father Chazal said that because +Vigano was "late to the fight" he's trying to be "as loud as he can".  I'm not sure it's due to lateness, but rather because +Vigano realizes that he has (or, rather, had) a public platform, since he was embraced by Trad, Inc. and the convervative Novus Ordites on account of the McCarrick issue.  He even had Trump re-tweet his letter one time.  So he's more "famous" than any of the long-time Traditional clergy are (except for the time when +Williamson gained infamy / notoriety over his h0Ɩ0h0αx comments).  +Vigano knew that he was in a position to influence the right-leaning Novus Ordites and did his best, but I think he realized that time was over when he broke with Trad, Inc. by blowing up Matt's "unite the clans" meeting.  Now that he's finally come out publicly with his conviction that Jorge is no pope, I think his days of fame and notoriety in those quarters is over ... a conviction I believe he's long held, since he's never referred to Bergoglio as anything but Bergoglio for the past 3.5 years (not Pope, not Holy Father, and only once that I recall even Francis, and that was sarcastic).  He'll no longer have a voice on all the Trad, Inc outlets but will be relegated to obscurity by them.  That's why I think he's decided to move on and try to set up that seminary.  In that regard, I think it is due to his regret over having come late to the fight, so he's trying to do what he can now to make up for it as best he can.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #51 on: December 16, 2023, 08:34:05 AM »
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    • In any case, what Fr. Chazal "implies" did in fact happen, as confirmed by multiple sources.  Since the details were told to me in confidence, I won't share them yet ... but the cat's largely out of the bag, as it were, that it did take place.  It's only a matter of time now that the details will become public without my having to put them out there.

    I have no information in this regard, and so it's pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if Fr. Chazal was also consecrated on his latest trip to the UK.  I'm hoping that he was, since he's IMO the best intellect in the Resistance and has come up with the most coherent and Catholic theological approach to the Crisis, once that both R&R and SVs can find to be very solid and Catholic.

    Now I just wish that the Trad clergy will start to realize the problem with EENS as related to the Crisis.  I think that +Vigano does at least on one level, since he concluded his initial June 30, 2020 rejection of Vatican II with this paragraph:
    Quote
    Last Sunday, the Church celebrated the Most Holy Trinity, and in the Breviary it offers us the recitation of the Symbolum Athanasianum, now outlawed by the conciliar liturgy and already reduced to only two occasions in the liturgical reform of 1962. The first words of that now-disappeared Symbolum remain inscribed in letters of gold: “Quicuмque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est ut teneat Catholicam fidem; quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternum peribit – Whosoever wishes to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith; For unless a person shall have kept this faith whole and inviolate, without doubt he shall eternally perish.”
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    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #52 on: December 16, 2023, 09:01:03 AM »
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    • "Those" Trad societies that are failing to respond with complete rejection of the novus ordo, are risking becoming like the Jєωs at the time of Our Lord, irrelevant!

    The Lord is asking the guests at the lower seat at the table to come and take a higher and more honorable seat.
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #53 on: December 16, 2023, 09:34:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 16, 2023, 08:34:05 AM
    In any case, what Fr. Chazal "implies" did in fact happen, as confirmed by multiple sources.  Since the details were told to me in confidence, I won't share them yet ... but the cat's largely out of the bag, as it were, that it did take place.  It's only a matter of time now that the details will become public without my having to put them out there.

    I have no information in this regard, and so it's pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if Fr. Chazal was also consecrated on his latest trip to the UK.  I'm hoping that he was, since he's IMO the best intellect in the Resistance and has come up with the most coherent and Catholic theological approach to the Crisis, once that both R&R and SVs can find to be very solid and Catholic.

    Now I just wish that the Trad clergy will start to realize the problem with EENS as related to the Crisis.  I think that +Vigano does at least on one level, since he concluded his initial June 30, 2020 rejection of Vatican II with this paragraph:
    Dear Ladislaus,
    I pray that what you say is true!  A clear and unambiguous announcement from Bishop Williamson would be greatly appreciated!  At that point, the SSPX would be forced to explain or re-evaluate taking in "Huondor the Trojan Horse" and all the novus ordo "priests" serving without conditional ordination.  Fr. Stehlen in Poland has stated that it would be a sacrilege to conditionally ordain the novus ordo "priests" pouring into SSPX chapels--who cares about Our Lord and the souls of the faithful who think they are receiving true and valid Sacraments!  Fr Chazal's statements regarding Strickland are very true--he is definitely not ready or willing to leave the novus ordo sect.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #54 on: December 16, 2023, 09:43:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 15, 2023, 05:38:54 PM
    Thanks CK. No doubt about it, the first speech was emphatic enough, but he covered himself by saying "I'm just asking the question". But he was clearly doing more than that. But now he has confirmed his position in no uncertain terms. It is not the position of the Resistance, which has clearly always been that not only can we not make the declaration due to lack of authority, but also we cannot make the definitive judgement which is also for the Church. Please don't make this a thread for debating that, I'm just stating the position. It is obvious from the fact that so many sedevacantists are getting excited about AB Vigano that his position is not the Resistance position. So, will they work together? Behind the scenes I think yes, but openly... hmmm... I think there will be another split if that eventuates. What do you all think?????

    You stated the following:

    "......not only can we not make the declaration due to lack of authority, but also we cannot make the definitive judgement which is also for the Church."

    I do not see these conjunct statements as two different things.  They are both related to authority.  Whereas it is true that we do not have the authority to make a definitive judgment, we do have in conscience the right to make a private judgment based on the evidence.  And the evidence is overwhelming that Jorge Bergoglio is not a Catholic, and therefore cannot be pope.

    The Resistance has to come to terms with the fact that Jorge Bergoglio is not the pope.  To continue to recognize and resist is not pleasing to God with the abundance of evidence of this fact.

    “The very act of submission to the pretended authority of an openly heretical enemy (i.e., Jorge Bergoglio) of the Catholic faith constitutes per se an objectively grave act not only of indiscreet obedience; but done in ignorance, constitutes an act of material schism as well. Thus, while the Recognize and Resist policy of Catholics towards the errant conciliar popes was morally justified from the time of the post-council up to the end of February 2013, when Pope Benedict went into what is increasingly seen to be a coerced retirement; it is no longer morally licit to adhere to it for so long as the heretical intruder (or another like him) remains in power, because it is morally wrong and schismatic to recognize and be subject to a manifestly formal heretic.”
    (Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope . Kindle Edition.)

    It is difficult to say what will happen in the long term because the next pope could very well be a holy pope and be able to bring all factions together.


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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #55 on: December 16, 2023, 10:00:13 AM »
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    • Yes, the cat is out of the bag!
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #56 on: December 16, 2023, 10:23:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Persto on December 15, 2023, 05:50:24 PM
    Thank you for posting this 2Vermont. At mark 35:42 Fr. Jenkins brings up Vigano's Opus Dei relationships/contacts and the legitimate concerns on the part of people who think Vigano could be leading others down a dead end. He points out Vigano's involvement with the Cancelled Priests movement and its apparent disintegration. Mark 39:39 Fr. Jenkins says if OD is behind Vigano that is reason for serious misgivings about him.

    Fr. Jenkins provides a good account of both the good things that +Vigano has said, and also of the problems with +Vigano. He doesn't make any judgement of +Vigano, but says that we must wait and see. It's quite balanced, though he didn't bring up the particular issues that I have with +Vigano, but that's okay.

    I listened to all of the video after 32:00 minutes. It's very good, but then I expect that from Fr. Jenkins. Though it's a different topic from what has been discussed regarding +Vigano, I liked his explanation of the need for custody of the imagination.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #57 on: December 16, 2023, 10:32:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 16, 2023, 10:23:59 AM
    Fr. Jenkins provides a good account of both the good things that +Vigano has said, and also of the problems with +Vigano. He doesn't make any judgement of +Vigano, but says that we must wait and see. It's quite balanced, though he didn't bring up the particular issues that I have with +Vigano, but that's okay.

    I listened to all of the video after 32:00 minutes. It's very good, but then I expect that from Fr. Jenkins. Though it's a different topic from what has been discussed regarding +Vigano, I liked his explanation of the need for custody of the imagination.

    But I thought you were Resistance, and the Resistance have clearly embraced +Vigano with open arms.  So you're siding with the "evil sedevacantist" against the Resistance?

    I never thought I'd see the day ... :laugh1:  

    You chimed in multiple times on the "The Nine" thread deriding all of the "wicked Nine", but now Father Jenkins is great and the Resistance is wrong.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #58 on: December 16, 2023, 10:36:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 16, 2023, 10:23:59 AM
    he didn't bring up the particular issues that I have with +Vigano, but that's okay.

    Ah, yes, the "Sol Invictus" and "Mason" nonsense.  Well, that's because Father Jenkins is actually rational.  Oh, and he doesn't condemn +Vigano's sedevcantism either, "but that's okay".
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #59 on: December 16, 2023, 10:38:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 16, 2023, 10:32:51 AM
    But I thought you were Resistance, and the Resistance have clearly embraced +Vigano with open arms.  So you're siding with the "evil sedevacantist" against the Resistance?

    I never thought I'd see the day ... :laugh1:

    I've always liked Fr. Jenkins. But then, he's not so pushy with the sedevacantism as some SV's, is he. He seems to care more about the Catholic faith and how to remain Catholic in a Crisis. I've said good things about Fr. Jenkins on 2 or 3 separate occasions on this forum, but I don't expect you to know that. Oh, and Fr. Jenkins is honest. That's counts for a lot, IMO. 

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29
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