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Author Topic: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023  (Read 13036 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2023, 02:08:47 PM »
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    • Fr. Chazal says that Vigano agrees with the Resistance on the following essentials (26:10):

    1. He believes that "Bergoglio" is a heretic.
    2. He believes that a heretic must be fought until he returns to Tradition.
    3. He fights the Conciliar Church.
    4. He hate the New Mass.
    5. He condemns Vatican II.

    Fr. Chazal then throws up his hands and says "What else do we want?" He even calls Vigano as a Resistance bishop. 

    Indeed. And all Sedevacantists agree with these same essential points. So why doesn't the Resistance take the same stance with the Sedevacantists? 

    Hopefully, they will in the future.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #16 on: December 14, 2023, 03:13:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 14, 2023, 01:55:13 PM
    Time will show whether you are correct.  It would explain why Vigano hasn't stated that he was conditionally consecrated. 

    But taking the question about his consecration out of the equation, how would Vigano be a "Resistance" bishop?  He doesn't believe Bergoglio is pope. Since when was that the position of the Resistance?

    Many in the Resistance, unfortunately, incorrectly use Archbishop Lefebvre to defend their position that Jorge Bergoglio is pope because the Archbishop accepted all the conciliar popes as popes until his death.  They have made this some kind of universal principle that we must always accept a putative pope as pope.  Archbishop Lefebvre, on the other hand, taught that whether a putative pope is pope or not depends on the evidence of heresy.  See here.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #17 on: December 14, 2023, 05:34:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 14, 2023, 02:08:47 PM
    Fr. Chazal says that Vigano agrees with the Resistance on the following essentials (26:10):

    1. He believes that "Bergoglio" is a heretic.
    2. He believes that a heretic must be fought until he returns to Tradition.
    3. He fights the Conciliar Church.
    4. He hate the New Mass.
    5. He condemns Vatican II.

    Fr. Chazal then throws up his hands and says "What else do we want?" He even calls Vigano as a Resistance bishop.

    Indeed. And all Sedevacantists agree with these same essential points. So why doesn't the Resistance take the same stance with the Sedevacantists?

    Hopefully, they will in the future.

    I've seen a bit of a softening towards SVism by some of The Resistance.  +Williamson characterized the position as understandable, given the phenomenon of a Jorge Bergoglio and said it's possible that Jorge's not the pope.  Avrille also put out a statement that they too could understand why one would adopt that position.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #18 on: December 14, 2023, 05:48:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on December 14, 2023, 04:15:21 AM
    "The neccessary has been done"  suggests that they discussed the issue and decided not to consecrate conditionally .

    If Mgr Vigano is to be considered a bishop of the "Resistance", then there is no reason to claim that Mgr Huonder isn't a bishop of the SSPX.
    This is a strange way to interpret what was said, and surely the very opposite of what was implied.
    It is known to all that Bishop Williamson has repeatedly criticised the SSPX for allowing the doubtful Bishop Huonder into the sheepfold and casting doubt over SSPX sacraments. Likewise, he has promoted the study of the NREC by Fr Calderon which concludes that the new consecrations are not certainly valid and must be repeated conditionally to guarantee the validity of the sacraments. He has also stated in a past Eleison Comments that if he were Pope he may well require all new rite ordinations to be conditionally repeated.
    If Fr Chazal is saying that Bishop Williamson meets regularly with Archbishop Vigano, and is claiming him as a Resistance bishop, and then says 'the necessary has been done', that could only imply that he has indeed been conditionally consecrated.
    No doubt there will be reassurance given to the faithful should it become more public that he is indeed cooperating with the Resistance. Patience! This conference of Fr Chazal was before Archbishop Vigano's latest quasi-sedevacantist conference. Are they still on the same page? Can we expect public cooperation now??? Time will tell.
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    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #19 on: December 14, 2023, 06:19:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 14, 2023, 05:48:20 PM
    This is a strange way to interpret what was said, and surely the very opposite of what was implied.
    It is known to all that Bishop Williamson has repeatedly criticised the SSPX for allowing the doubtful Bishop Huonder into the sheepfold and casting doubt over SSPX sacraments. Likewise, he has promoted the study of the NREC by Fr Calderon which concludes that the new consecrations are not certainly valid and must be repeated conditionally to guarantee the validity of the sacraments. He has also stated in a past Eleison Comments that if he were Pope he may well require all new rite ordinations to be conditionally repeated.
    If Fr Chazal is saying that Bishop Williamson meets regularly with Archbishop Vigano, and is claiming him as a Resistance bishop, and then says 'the necessary has been done', that could only imply that he has indeed been conditionally consecrated.
    No doubt there will be reassurance given to the faithful should it become more public that he is indeed cooperating with the Resistance. Patience! This conference of Fr Chazal was before Archbishop Vigano's latest quasi-sedevacantist conference. Are they still on the same page? Can we expect public cooperation now??? Time will tell.
    Definitely see a unifying force in this development. Bishop Williamson recently acknowledged archbishop Thuc's Contribution
    To save tradition. It looks like bishop williamson is the man of the hour.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #20 on: December 14, 2023, 06:23:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gunter on December 14, 2023, 06:19:42 PM
    Bishop Williamson recently acknowledged archbishop Thuc's Contribution To save tradition.

    When did that happen?  I must have missed that.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #21 on: December 14, 2023, 06:27:28 PM »
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    • So now that Francis is recognized as being so absolutely insane, sedevacantism has graduated to 'that might be acceptable'.  Just like the Remnant pointed out in their recent article?  Kind of laughable but nice progress and good to see.  
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    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #22 on: December 14, 2023, 07:10:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on December 14, 2023, 06:23:12 PM
    When did that happen?  I must have missed that.
    In a newsletters a few months back 
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #23 on: December 14, 2023, 08:19:03 PM »
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    • At one or more point during his talk Fr. C mentions two new priests in Australia. Does anyone know if these are exSSPX or come from the Novus Ordo? Do they need reeducation, conditional ordination, etc., etc.?
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    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #24 on: December 14, 2023, 08:37:41 PM »
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    • Thank you for posting the link because this was a very excellent talk. Father Chazal loves idioms and metaphors however he is always straightforward.  I believe we can trust what he says is accurate. I for one have had my doubts about +Vigano cleared up in the last couple of weeks. 
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #25 on: December 14, 2023, 11:53:16 PM »
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #26 on: December 15, 2023, 12:00:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on December 14, 2023, 08:19:03 PM
    At one or more point during his talk Fr. C mentions two new priests in Australia. Does anyone know if these are exSSPX or come from the Novus Ordo? Do they need reeducation, conditional ordination, etc., etc.?
    They are from the Conciliar Church but trained in Rome (or should I say and - gasp! - trained in Rome...). They appear, though, to have had a more conservative and classical formation. Bishop Williamson has seen to everything... Some discretion is still required for one reason or another.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #27 on: December 15, 2023, 12:07:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on December 14, 2023, 06:27:28 PM
    So now that Francis is recognized as being so absolutely insane, sedevacantism has graduated to 'that might be acceptable'.  Just like the Remnant pointed out in their recent article?  Kind of laughable but nice progress and good to see. 
    That is not an accurate interpretation of Fr Chazal's presentation. I understand why you would say this, however, given the seeming approach of the Resistance to Archbishop Vigano. However, keep in mind that this conference was given before Archbishop Vigano's statements that are so seemingly sympathetic to the sedevacantist viewpoint.

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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #28 on: December 15, 2023, 06:39:52 AM »
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    • Hey Plenus,

    No worries.  My comment was actually directed at Gunter's observation eight posts earlier regarding Williamson and Thuc (these discussions can so easily veer off the main heading).  Regardless, while it's still the early stages, I think Vigano comes across as one finding his way out of the New Order and is generally a needed breath of fresh air.  Only time will tell, of course.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Fr Chazal Conference in the UK November 2023
    « Reply #29 on: December 15, 2023, 06:55:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 15, 2023, 12:07:32 AM
    That is not an accurate interpretation of Fr Chazal's presentation. I understand why you would say this, however, given the seeming approach of the Resistance to Archbishop Vigano. However, keep in mind that this conference was given before Archbishop Vigano's statements that are so seemingly sympathetic to the sedevacantist viewpoint.

    Archbishop Vigano came out stating that he does not hold Jorge Bergoglio as pope due to a defect of consent BEFORE Fr. Chazal's November 2023 conference.
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