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Author Topic: Fr. Chautard and the "Redlight" Position  (Read 443 times)

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Offline coeurvoil

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Fr. Chautard and the "Redlight" Position
« on: Yesterday at 10:25:32 AM »
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    • Below is a translated excerpt from Fr. Chautard’s article, “ Le combat pour la messe “ (The Combat for the Mass) which can be found in the November 2010 issue of Le Chardonnet (the monthly bulletin of St. Nicolas du Chardonnet parish in Paris). Fr. Chautard is presently the rector of the SSPX University in Paris (L’Institut Universitaire Saint-Pie X).

    Fr. Chautard’s explanation clearly shows why one should not attend SSPX Masses.




    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Translated by: Unbrandable @ Cor-Mariae


    Fr. Chautard:

    “…But some do not hesitate to go to traditional Masses celebrated by priests (belonging to institutes) officially recognizing the full catholicity and legitimacy of the Council, of religious freedom, of the new Code of Canon Law, etc.

    These faithful, and sometimes these priests, do not themselves adhere to the official directives of the said institutes. This scenario, unprecedented before 1984, more widespread in 1988, was further multiplied by the publication of the Motu Proprio Summarum Pontificuм in 2007.

    It was then realized – or at least remembered – that fidelity to the Mass of all Time did not automatically entail fidelity to the doctrine of all Time and that allegiance to the traditional Mass did not prevent allegiance to the Council and what comes from it. The combat for the Mass, formerly inseparable from the combat for the Faith, was no more, de facto.

    A Change of Emphasis

    From this day, the combat of the Society for the Mass was further refined to put the spiritual, moral and normally inseparable link between the combat for the Faith and the combat for the Mass, between the assistance at the Mass of all Time and the confession of the Faith of all Time. Without a doubt, we can argue about the congenital inconsistency between an anti-ecuмenical, traditional Mass and modern errors like ecuмenism. It is not only about that.

    For breaking the link between assistance at Mass and communion in the same faith with the minister of this Mass and his hierarchy rests upon a profound misunderstanding of the nature of the Eucharistic cult.

    In fact, assisting – in an active manner and not purely passive by civility– at the Mass of a priest (like at any other sacrament) amounts to professing the same faith of this priest and the authority he is under.

    Christian antiquity had a clear awareness of this reality. Individualism had not yet penetrated the sanctuary and Christian piety. Every baptized person knew that assisting at Mass meant publicly manifesting his communion in the faith with the celebrant. Whatever the individual reasons, they knew that participation at Mass is always a public confession of adhesion to the faith of the celebrant who presides over the Sacrifice and therefore to the sacramental and liturgical confession of the Faith. That is why they refused to assist at the Mass of a heretical priest. It would have publicly signified their communion in the same faith.

    Consequently, to say that assistance at a Mass does not entail of itself any adhesion to the doctrinal orientation of the minister or of his institute constitutes in itself a liturgical error and proof of an individualism foreign to Catholic faith and piety.

    That is why the combat led by the Society for the Mass [translator’s note: and now led by the true Catholic Resistance], far from being finished, has taken henceforth a direction that is more doctrinal still, manifesting more the narrow link between the virtue of faith and the virtue of religion, between doctrine and liturgy, between the Lex Credendi and the Lex orandi.

    Such is the course to follow in order to keep an authentic fidelity, complete, to the teaching of Jesus Christ and so as not to separate in our Christian life what must stay united: faith in Jesus Christ and the irremediable attachment to the inestimable treasure that He left us: His Sacrifice.”

    laportelatine.org/district/prieure/stnicol/Chardonnet/Chardonnet262.pdf
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    Online Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Chautard and the "Redlight" Position
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 07:16:18 PM »
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    • I disagree that this demonstrates that one should not attend SSPX Masses. That is a gross exaggeration and distortion of the truth.
    Bishop Williamson also did not adopt this extreme red light position, and I think many have fallen by the way in adopting it.
    SSPX Priests are Catholic, and attending their Masses is in no way contrary to the profession of the Faith.
    They do not accept Vatican II, Religious Liberty, or the New Mass: it is a very different situation from the "Indult" communities, even if the SSPX seems to be heading in that direction.
    We are in a crisis. The Church even wants us to receive the sacraments from non-Catholic ministers in danger of death. Many are in danger of death if they cut themselves off from the sacraments because of this ill-conceived notion that you can't go to a Mass or receive sacraments from a priest unless he understands every aspect of the crisis as you do. It is dangerous and in my opinion not Catholic.
    Of course we agree that the Resistance is right. Fortunate are those who have a Resistance priest to give them the Mass and the sacraments. But don't condemn the rest of the world to a spiritual desert.
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    Offline coeurvoil

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    Re: Fr. Chautard and the "Redlight" Position
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 07:55:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on Yesterday at 07:16:18 PM
    I disagree that this demonstrates that one should not attend SSPX Masses. That is a gross exaggeration and distortion of the truth.
    Bishop Williamson also did not adopt this extreme red light position, and I think many have fallen by the way in adopting it.
    SSPX Priests are Catholic, and attending their Masses is in no way contrary to the profession of the Faith.
    They do not accept Vatican II, Religious Liberty, or the New Mass: it is a very different situation from the "Indult" communities, even if the SSPX seems to be heading in that direction.
    We are in a crisis. The Church even wants us to receive the sacraments from non-Catholic ministers in danger of death. Many are in danger of death if they cut themselves off from the sacraments because of this ill-conceived notion that you can't go to a Mass or receive sacraments from a priest unless he understands every aspect of the crisis as you do. It is dangerous and in my opinion not Catholic.
    Of course we agree that the Resistance is right. Fortunate are those who have a Resistance priest to give them the Mass and the sacraments. But don't condemn the rest of the world to a spiritual desert.
    The Faith is the condition for grace; the sacraments do not sanctify in union with error.
     
    The SSPX is under a practical agreement. They accept Rome’s jurisdiction. They accept Vatican II “in light of Tradition.” They declared the New Mass legitimately promulgated in 2012—and never retracted it.

    That’s apostasy in practice.

    > “Even if they give us everything—we refuse if they don’t convert.”
    — Archbishop Lefebvre

    This isn’t a question of sacraments. It’s a question of truth. You cannot drink from a poisoned well and call it grace.
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Fr. Chautard and the "Redlight" Position
    « Reply #3 on: Today at 01:28:01 AM »
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    • If at this point 13 years on, you are still going to the SSPX for Mass, you really need your head checked for sanity. 

    Nobody who goes to the SSPX ends up staying with the resistance. They end up like frogs in boiling water, becoming liberal over time. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Chautard and the "Redlight" Position
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 04:58:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on Yesterday at 07:16:18 PM
    I disagree that this demonstrates that one should not attend SSPX Masses. That is a gross exaggeration and distortion of the truth.
    Bishop Williamson also did not adopt this extreme red light position, and I think many have fallen by the way in adopting it.
    SSPX Priests are Catholic, and attending their Masses is in no way contrary to the profession of the Faith.
    They do not accept Vatican II, Religious Liberty, or the New Mass: it is a very different situation from the "Indult" communities, even if the SSPX seems to be heading in that direction.
    We are in a crisis. The Church even wants us to receive the sacraments from non-Catholic ministers in danger of death. Many are in danger of death if they cut themselves off from the sacraments because of this ill-conceived notion that you can't go to a Mass or receive sacraments from a priest unless he understands every aspect of the crisis as you do. It is dangerous and in my opinion not Catholic.
    Of course we agree that the Resistance is right. Fortunate are those who have a Resistance priest to give them the Mass and the sacraments. But don't condemn the rest of the world to a spiritual desert.
    Well said!
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr. Chautard and the "Redlight" Position
    « Reply #5 on: Today at 05:22:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: coeurvoil on Yesterday at 07:55:21 PM
    The Faith is the condition for grace; the sacraments do not sanctify in union with error.
     
    The SSPX is under a practical agreement. They accept Rome’s jurisdiction. They accept Vatican II “in light of Tradition.” They declared the New Mass legitimately promulgated in 2012—and never retracted it.

    That’s apostasy in practice.

    > “Even if they give us everything—we refuse if they don’t convert.”
    — Archbishop Lefebvre

    This isn’t a question of sacraments. It’s a question of truth. You cannot drink from a poisoned well and call it grace.
    Yes, the SSPX has gone the wrong direction since after the death of +ABL, what else is new? Every one of the various trad groups out there are wrong-headed about at least one thing or another. That's the way it is in this crisis.

    The SSPX has thus far ordained for the world valid priests, so the sacraments are certainly valid - your opening sentence is ambiguous at best, as regards those who go to the SSPX, it applies only to those who receive them unworthily. 

    They still have a lot more very good valid, orthodox priests than any other group out there, and they preach the Catholic faith. Use them whenever you can for what you need, but don't paint with a brush so broad as to condemn them all.

         
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline StBoniface

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    Re: Fr. Chautard and the "Redlight" Position
    « Reply #6 on: Today at 05:57:39 AM »
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    • Your post is not correct. Canon 2261 of the old canon law allows the reception of sacraments of heretics if they are still uncondemned by church authority for any just cause. It even states, that you are allowed to receive the sacrements if they are otherwise non available.

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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Fr. Chautard and the "Redlight" Position
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 06:44:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on Yesterday at 07:16:18 PM
    I disagree that this demonstrates that one should not attend SSPX Masses. That is a gross exaggeration and distortion of the truth.
    Bishop Williamson also did not adopt this extreme red light position, and I think many have fallen by the way in adopting it.
    SSPX Priests are Catholic, and attending their Masses is in no way contrary to the profession of the Faith.
    They do not accept Vatican II, Religious Liberty, or the New Mass: it is a very different situation from the "Indult" communities, even if the SSPX seems to be heading in that direction.
    We are in a crisis. The Church even wants us to receive the sacraments from non-Catholic ministers in danger of death. Many are in danger of death if they cut themselves off from the sacraments because of this ill-conceived notion that you can't go to a Mass or receive sacraments from a priest unless he understands every aspect of the crisis as you do. It is dangerous and in my opinion not Catholic.
    Of course we agree that the Resistance is right. Fortunate are those who have a Resistance priest to give them the Mass and the sacraments. But don't condemn the rest of the world to a spiritual desert.

    Posts like this give the SSPX priests and faithful the encouragement to stay where they are.  This post should be red lighted.
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    Offline StBoniface

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    Re: Fr. Chautard and the "Redlight" Position
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 06:53:26 AM »
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    • PS: You should not go to the Indult Mass, because they dont have certainly valid sacraments. We cant approach sacraments that are dubiously valid. As for the other issue: your salvation is more important than faith-politics of some organisiations. If you dont have another mass option and there is only the sspx then it is a matter of prudence if you will assist or not. You should as best as you can remove yourself out of this situation in the near future.
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Fr. Chautard and the "Redlight" Position
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 07:02:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on Today at 01:28:01 AM
    If at this point 13 years on, you are still going to the SSPX for Mass, you really need your head checked for sanity.

    Nobody who goes to the SSPX ends up staying with the resistance. They end up like frogs in boiling water, becoming liberal over time.
    No. Not true. That is a generalisation not backed by statistical data. There are those of us who do attend Mass with the SSPX who will resist until the SSPX reverts to its pre-Fallay status or we are ejected from the SSPX chapels.
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    Offline coeurvoil

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    Re: Fr. Chautard and the "Redlight" Position
    « Reply #10 on: Today at 10:11:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on Today at 07:02:53 AM
    No. Not true. That is a generalisation not backed by statistical data. There are those of us who do attend Mass with the SSPX who will resist until the SSPX reverts to its pre-Fallay status or we are ejected from the SSPX chapels.
    You can’t resist what you continue to assist.
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