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Author Topic: Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson  (Read 10116 times)

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Offline John Grace

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Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2013, 04:21:11 PM »
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  • Traditionalist Catholics must have the courage to say to Indult folk "You are not one of us". They are Catholic if validly baptised but there must be charity too. Bishop Williamson made a good point of people looking down the nose at Indult or Novus Ordo folk.


    Offline Matto

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #31 on: August 28, 2013, 04:22:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace
    Traditionalist Catholics must have the courage to say to Indult folk "You are not one of us".

    I agree.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline John Grace

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #32 on: August 28, 2013, 04:33:04 PM »
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  • All our time must be spent on the resistance. Disputes among clergy are hardly new.

    Offline Adolphus

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #33 on: August 28, 2013, 04:44:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace
    I don't agree with Adolphus regarding attacking the Bishop but the point has been made.

    I can apply the same to myself regarding my valid criticism of the SSPX District Superior of Britain and Ireland. He is obviously brow beaten.

    Regardless of who is District Superior, the SSPX are dead and are no different to the FSSP.

    I think we need to put it in a different way: I am not attacking Bp. Williamson.  Neither are Fr. Méramo nor Fr. Ceriani.

    This is not to attack anybody, but just to point out some things which seem to be wrong.

    I said this before: nobody likes to see his/her moral leader being pointed out as someone doing wrong or at least as someone suspicious.  But that would not prevent us to examine such moral leader's behavior and, if finding something wrong, to warn others about it.

    I believe that was the process must of us follow to realize Bp. Fellay was betraying the Society and the Church.  And I am not saying that we will end concluding Bp. Williamson is betraying the SSPX as well, but that's a natural process and we should not be consider it as an attack to anybody.

    We have to keep in mind that even the popes have mistaken, so we have to keep our eyes wide open and keep praying.

    Offline John Grace

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #34 on: August 28, 2013, 04:45:02 PM »
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  • Quote
    Personally, pro-life activism in Ireland has blurred the difference between the SSPX and the Indult.


    What I mean here is usually SSPX youth work closely with the more charismatic JPII Youth 2000 brigade when it is for 'pro-life'. The Trad needs to be able to say to the charismatic types "Karol Wojtyla. Beatified? ... never!". Many will run a mile from you.

    I put my foot in it once when I was telling a girl how it was silly for women to be "theology students". It turns out she was a "theology student". These matters can be sorted out in a fun way. What would she think of Kinder, Küche, Kirche/

    Regarding Youth 2000, I was never in it but a few good sorts are emerging from it. It is necessary to "tradify them".


    Offline John Grace

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #35 on: August 28, 2013, 04:51:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Adolphus
    Quote from: John Grace
    I don't agree with Adolphus regarding attacking the Bishop but the point has been made.

    I can apply the same to myself regarding my valid criticism of the SSPX District Superior of Britain and Ireland. He is obviously brow beaten.

    Regardless of who is District Superior, the SSPX are dead and are no different to the FSSP.

    I think we need to put it in a different way: I am not attacking Bp. Williamson.  Neither are Fr. Méramo nor Fr. Ceriani.

    This is not to attack anybody, but just to point out some things which seem to be wrong.

    I said this before: nobody likes to see his/her moral leader being pointed out as someone doing wrong or at least as someone suspicious.  But that would not prevent us to examine such moral leader's behavior and, if finding something wrong, to warn others about it.

    I believe that was the process must of us follow to realize Bp. Fellay was betraying the Society and the Church.  And I am not saying that we will end concluding Bp. Williamson is betraying the SSPX as well, but that's a natural process and we should not be consider it as an attack to anybody.

    We have to keep in mind that even the popes have mistaken, so we have to keep our eyes wide open and keep praying.


    The point has been made.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #36 on: August 28, 2013, 05:40:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: Adolphus
    Quote from: Sienna629
    Quote

    In the case of Bp. Williamson, he already knew about Bp. Fellay's errors (Bp. Fellay seems to have changed the rifle to the other shoulder), Bp. Williamson had been warned about the summorum pontificuм and he persisted saying it had been something good, he knew the excommunications were invalid and inexistent, however he thanked their lifting and accepted them as being effective, etc.


    This is starting to sound like the Jєωs on Good Friday, "Crucify Him! Crucify Him!"

    As we say in America, "Let it go, man!"

    No, it is not about crucifying anybody.  But we have to consider the facts.  That's why Fr. Méramo was asking an explanation from Bp. Williamson.  I would love to hear or read a good explanation and realize that Bp. Williamson had good reasons to do what seemed to be wrong.

    But if there is not a good explanation, then how to trust someone who cannot see what is wrong in summorum pontificuм? how to trust someone who did not mind to sign a letter stating a lie?  how to trust someone whose behavior is not stable?


    This got three thumbs down because people don't like to ask difficult questions.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Charlotte NC Bill

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #37 on: August 28, 2013, 06:53:03 PM »
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  • Some people need to get a life outside of "hunting Williamson"....ala Elmer Fudd; "I'm hunting wabbit..'


    Offline Charlotte NC Bill

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #38 on: August 28, 2013, 06:55:15 PM »
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  • Tomorrow sometime after they hit the snooze button they'll scribble "williamson watch 988"......now THAT's erratic behavior...on display, everyday at Cathinfo.

    Offline Hatchc

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #39 on: August 28, 2013, 08:59:52 PM »
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  • Father Ceriani asks some fair questions.

    Offline Charlotte NC Bill

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #40 on: August 28, 2013, 09:13:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Hatchc
    Father Ceriani asks some fair questions.


    Wanna hear a really "fair question"? Huh? Well, When will Bp Fellay step down as Sup Gen and take Plueger, Nely and Krah with him?

    That's the only question I care about.


    Offline John Grace

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #41 on: August 29, 2013, 05:55:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: Charlotte NC Bill
    Quote from: Hatchc
    Father Ceriani asks some fair questions.


    Wanna hear a really "fair question"? Huh? Well, When will Bp Fellay step down as Sup Gen and take Plueger, Nely and Krah with him?

    That's the only question I care about.



    To be fair the questions have been answered in the alleged comment from Fr Laisney SSPX. I say alleged because Fr Laisney has never confirmed or denied writing the following. Of Dr Krah he wrote

    Quote
    Maximilian Krah is one of our faithful, and an competent attorney



    You will be waiting if you believe if Bishop Fellay and those you mention will step down.

    Those whom I admire are those who are with the resistance. Those who follow Bishop Fellay and his gang are a sad and rather pathetic lot. In my opinion they have no principle and I would question their integrity.

    My own experience with a cleric at St George's House (British District HQ) was that he would rather want me to believe I had read false information than him accept the truth. I still resent him making me out to be a liar. The first thing he said was "you must be careful what you read on the internet" I believe it was Fr Lindstrom I spoke to.

    As I stated to 'Raphaela' I will challenge when accused in the wrong.

    Offline Adolphus

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #42 on: August 29, 2013, 08:35:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat

    And when I ask about it, you, Adolphus, offer one thing to show what he was perhaps thinking about when he said "things precipitated," and what do you choose but "the lifting of the excommunications!"

    Perhaps you didn't notice (or maybe you did!) that the EFFECT comes after the CAUSE, and not before, which is why we say "CAUSE AND EFFECT" (instead of effect and cause).  Therefore, according to your answer, Adolphus, the CAUSE would be the publication of +W's Sweedish interview, and the EFFECT was the so-called "Lifting" of the Excoms.  

    Quote from: Adolphus

    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    What "things" happened rapidly?
    The context is obviously the SSPX and what is (or was) related to it.

    What things happened rapidly?  Probably Fr. Ceriani refers to the lifting of the excommunications.


    Obviously, I was referring to the decree of lifting the excommunications.  I never said I was referring to the excommunications being said to be "lifted".

    Quote from: Neil Obstat

    But the Excoms were so-called "Lifted" long before the Sweedish interview was published.  IN FACT, it was widely circulated by MANY divergent interest groups that had B16 known about this nefarious Sweedish Interview, he would NEVER have so-called "Lifted" the Excoms.  Therefore, for you to say, Adolphus, that Fr. Ceriani hints or implies or cryptically suggests or whatever terms you may prefer (something different than the terms he uses to criticize +W, for sure!) that the so-called "Lifting" of the Excoms "was precipitated by the publication of Bishop Williamson’s statements and the threat of the weekly Der Spiegel" would be utter nonsense, foolishness, drivel, contrived fiction, fantasy, pipe dream or flat out LIE  ... Take your pick .... Any or all of the above.

    None of them apply.  I already answered this in a previous post.

    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Please don't take this personally, Adolphus.  I'm sure it was an honest mistake.

    You are sure it was a honest mistake?  But few lines above you suggested it could have been a lie!

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #43 on: August 29, 2013, 10:08:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: Adolphus
    Quote from: Neil Obstat

    And when I ask about it, you, Adolphus, offer one thing to show what he was perhaps thinking about when he said "things precipitated," and what do you choose but "the lifting of the excommunications!"

    Perhaps you didn't notice (or maybe you did!) that the EFFECT comes after the CAUSE, and not before, which is why we say "CAUSE AND EFFECT" (instead of effect and cause).  Therefore, according to your answer, Adolphus, the CAUSE would be the publication of +W's Sweedish interview, and the EFFECT was the so-called "Lifting" of the Excoms.  

    Quote from: Adolphus

    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    What "things" happened rapidly?
    The context is obviously the SSPX and what is (or was) related to it.

    What things happened rapidly?  Probably Fr. Ceriani refers to the lifting of the excommunications.


    Obviously, I was referring to the decree of lifting the excommunications.  I never said I was referring to the excommunications being said to be "lifted".



    So "obviously," you were "referring to the decree of" so-called Lifting "the
    excommunications" as being an EFFECT of the interview.  But it was not.  
    It  had nothing to do with the interview.  The decree would not
    have happened if the interview had been made public in November, when
    it was recorded, or in December, or for that matter, in the first week or
    two of January.  The Interview was published the day AFTER the so-called
    "Lifting" was announced.  The timing couldn't have been closer, really.

    I has been proposed that this was a HUGE EMBARRASSMENT for B16, a
    thing that made him look FOOLHARDY in his native Germany, and the
    Germans don't take well to a figurehead making them the laughingstock
    of the world - again!  Been there done that (check your history books -
    if you have any good ones!)!  In fact, the proposed scenario has been
    that this is what perpetrated his SURPRISE abdication the very next
    month, in case you've forgotten, Adolphus:  So-called "Lifting" January
    17th, announced on Jan. 24th, then Interview published January 25th,
    then SURPRISE ABDICATION announced Feb. 11th.  And in case you've
    forgotten AGAIN, most of the audience hearing the announcement
    didn't understand it because it was in LATIN.  And most of today's so-
    called Cardinals don't know any Latin!

    Or if they did, they've forgotten it - a lot like you, Adolphus!

    I asked "what 'things' precipitated from the Interview?"  And apparently
    you forgot that you had answered that you think Fr. Ceriani means that
    one of the "things" that precipitated from the Interview was the "lifting."  

    But that's obviously impossible.

    I know:  it's a difficult concept.


    Quote
    Quote from: Neil Obstat

    But the Excoms were so-called "Lifted" long before the Sweedish interview was published.  IN FACT, it was widely circulated by MANY divergent interest groups that had B16 known about this nefarious Sweedish Interview, he would NEVER have so-called "Lifted" the Excoms.  Therefore, for you to say, Adolphus, that Fr. Ceriani hints or implies or cryptically suggests or whatever terms you may prefer (something different than the terms he uses to criticize +W, for sure!) that the so-called "Lifting" of the Excoms "was precipitated by the publication of Bishop Williamson’s statements and the threat of the weekly Der Spiegel" would be utter nonsense, foolishness, drivel, contrived fiction, fantasy, pipe dream or flat out LIE  ... Take your pick .... Any or all of the above.


    None of them apply.  I already answered this in a previous post.


    Cause and effect ALWAYS applies.  FYI it is universal.

    Quote
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Please don't take this personally, Adolphus.  I'm sure it was an honest mistake.

    You are sure it was a honest mistake?  But few lines above you suggested it could have been a lie!



    If you insist, I grant you can have it you like it.  I was giving you a
    chance but you don't have to accept it.  

    So be it.




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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Fr. Ceriani answers Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #44 on: August 29, 2013, 10:36:25 AM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace
    All our time must be spent on the resistance. Disputes among clergy are hardly new.



    This is a good principle to keep in mind, from John Grace.

    Fr. Ceriani is trying to pick a fight with +W and it is not a good
    idea to make this stuff public.  The Faithful need to have
    cohesion in the clergy, for everyone's benefit.  

    That's one of the things that makes Newchurch so appealing to
    many:  even though there are a lot of things to argue about,
    the Newchurch bishops hold their peace with each other, because
    the APPEARANCE of cheerfulness is more important overall - it
    perpetrates the FACADE that keeps the crowd paying the bills.

    And +Fellay uses the same tactic.


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