Author Topic: Has the Roman Rota ever annulled a SSPX marriage? (Read 19250 times)

Tiffany · « **Reply #120 on:** October 14, 2014, 06:58:23 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

* Note: Although it seems short-sighted or even unrealistic for a woman to commit to a marriage with another man which might interfere with spending sufficient time with her children, it is actually quite likely. Women are very emotional on a good day, but especially when in love. Recall that even MEN are emotional and irrational when they are in lust, love, or otherwise infatuated. Throw in some wild hormone changes, and all bets are off!

A horrible situation? Of course. Stupid for the Church to allow something like this? Of course.

But, unfortunately, it could happen again and again in the current system. The fact that something so evil and damaging to souls is sanctioned by the System demonstrates the evils of the System!

IMO men who would take the cake for being irrational about a woman (denying the reality of who the woman really was) were not in lust or love but holding out hope for a image they had of the woman, who was in their mind perfect and the "only one" they met so far to fulfill their life dreams.

Tiffany · « **Reply #121 on:** October 14, 2014, 07:03:43 AM »

Quote from: Pete Vere

Quote from: ggreg
Why would Pete want to marry Therese and take on 9 kids that are not his own, some of whom will hate him for running off with their mother?

You would be surprised, ggreg, especially if Pete in this scenario is a priest who has heard Therese's (and possibly Joe's) confession on numerous occasions. He may see himself as Therese's saviour from a life of drudgery and extreme penny-pinching with a husband who is frequently unemployed and wants to drag the family to yet another Shangri-Trad.

As Matthew points out, these often begin as emotional affairs.

We should be helping a father keep employment not blaming them for their wife's affair.

Tiffany · « **Reply #122 on:** October 14, 2014, 07:18:41 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

Single 40 year old women with no children and reasonably good bodies have a devil of a time finding a "Pete". Heck my wife has some stunning friends who cannot find a man for love nor money and believe me they AIN'T fussy.

I have a hard time believing a beautiful woman with a good character that is looking to marry cannot. I've never been stunning, and I've had descent men who I never dated propose.

ggreg · « **Reply #123 on:** October 14, 2014, 07:24:10 AM »

Are you married Tiffany?

peterp · « **Reply #124 on:** October 14, 2014, 08:37:47 PM »

The Society's position is here: http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/supplied_jurisdiction/validity_of_confessions_1.htm

Which is based on the the applicability of the suppletory principle and sacraments administered by "excommunicated" priests.

There are a couple of other things to note:

This "jurisdiction" isn't a real jurisdiction in the true sense. Since jurisdictional acts cannot be forced, Sanchez opined that a witnessing priest forced against his will to assist at a marriage would render it valid. Suarez felt the same way; the priest is merely a 'notary'.

In the case of supplied jurisdiction Miaskiewicz bundles common error with doubt of fact but notes that it is clear that the Rota has always sought for the objective motive before deciding to apply or not to apply canon 209 [old code] to a given case. Here's one case:
... a priest assisted at the marriage of one of his brothers, it is similarly to be noted that he acted only because he was certain that he was legally capable so to do. In fact, as further testimony bore out, this priest testified that the basis of this action was the assurance of another of his brothers, a priest, who told him that it was not necessary to seek the delegation of the proper pastor, because everything was already taken care of. But, again, the mere existence of certitude on the part of the priest who assisted was not considered enough. The Rota very carefully examined the details of the case; and, when it verified that the proper pastor did not give, and under the circuмstances could not have given, the proper delegation, it declared the marriage invalid.
He concludes that the Rota's decisions are founded upon a certain amount of objectivity. In other words, for the Rota to refuse to annul an SSPX marriage would be to conclude that the reasons for marrying in the SSPX in the first place are, at least to some degree, objectively true (and they would never do that).

clare · « **Reply #125 on:** October 17, 2014, 05:50:44 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: modofac
Can anyone name a diocese which will enter a SSPX witnessed marriage in its registry? Mine won't.

Then they are gravely derelict in their duty. Even if no harm actually comes, they are guilty of whatever harm COULD come. To give your imagination some help, picture a seminarian who was actually married getting ordained later on. All the evils that would flow from that would be this person's fault.

SSPX marriages are certainly valid. SSPX priests are valid priests, and it's the couple that confects the marriage.

But even if the Conciliar authorities disagree with the Traditionalist position and the justification thereof, they have to admit that a couple is married and go ahead and register them, so they can't get married again, etc.

To do otherwise, they don't have a leg to stand on. Vatican II or no, 1917 Canon Law or 1983 Canon Law. They can't even quote something post-Vatican II that would defend this behavior.

Our SSPX priest certainly sent information about my marriage to my wife's home parish, etc. It's not like my wife is from a super-Trad parish and/or with a traditionally-minded bishop or something. No, they are quite average. But they will certainly record a done deed like a marriage!

We're not talking about being in the "Parish registry", or even on the "good standing" list. That's a different matter. But they need to note that one of their former parishioners has been married, so if that person later tries to get ordained, the seminary will be contacting *that same parish* for the person's records. That's how it works. It's a question of organized, distributed record keeping. It's not some kind of "seal of approval".

Besides, the Conciliar Church is supposed to be super liberal now. They want to allow "civil unions" between ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, and virtually bless second marriages after divorce (without annulments) and give them communion.

Does the Resistance send sacramental records to the relevant parishes?

TradandHappy · « **Reply #126 on:** October 18, 2015, 09:57:54 PM »

My daughter sadly has struggled with her faith and marriage and has divorced. The FSSP priest helped her to receive a declaration of nullify from the Diocese. To my knowledge there was no formal investigation and her ex-husband was not aware that she had begun the process until he received the declaration in the mail. It was a two sentence docuмent that said since the marriage was officiated by the SSPX it was not valid. This IS happening in the NO realm. If the FSSP does not believe there is a crisis of faith that brings about supplied jurisdiction then they should be avoided.

Henry101 · « **Reply #127 on:** October 19, 2015, 12:17:39 AM »

If a couple wishes an annulment for a marriage that was conducted in an SSPX chapel, the prior of the chapel conducts an investigation and sends the docuмents to Menzingen. Menzingen then decides if the case is strong enough and then forwards the docuмents to "Rome." Rome treats the request as if the couple were married in Rome. Roman authorities grant the declaration for nullity. I believe the Latin American province has dealt with this a lot.

In a similar way, if a priest wishes to return to the lay state (due to previously unknown impediments, etc.), previously, his file would be sent to Menzingen which would then conduct a preliminary hearing and forward the file to Rome. Now, Rome has granted the authority for this particular task to Bishop Fellay because they believe that this would constitute an "internal matter" which could be handeled by SSPX authorities. The reason why marriages can't be annulled by Menzingen is because (similar to confession), the sacraments are "juridical sacremental acts" where "juridical" authority comes from Peter down to the Ordinary down to the priest. It's a little complicated.

Archbishop Lefevbre and Bishop Fellay have cited the above (^^) as one of the many reasons why it is important to keep a constant line of communication with Rome despite all the problems.

On a similar note, this same "privilege" is totally absent by other traditionalist groups because Rome does not recognize the validity of priests ordained by Thuc line bishops (after a certain time period) and, as a result, consider the marriages as equal to protestant marriages (as in, absent of form/matter of the sacrament = no sacramental ever took place). It's extensively docuмented that many "traditional" priests from the Thuc line that have left their religious communities, have appealed to Rome to be returned to the lay state. I know of a few cases, just from the top of my head, where Rome simply stated that, after an investigation done decades ago by Cardinals Ratzinger and Bertone, there is enough doubt to consider sacraments performed by such priests null.

I hope this ^^ helps with some of the questions/comments that were brought up.

Henry101 · « **Reply #128 on:** October 19, 2015, 12:31:25 AM »

Quote from: TradandHappy

My daughter sadly has struggled with her faith and marriage and has divorced. The FSSP priest helped her to receive a declaration of nullify from the Diocese. To my knowledge there was no formal investigation and her ex-husband was not aware that she had begun the process until he received the declaration in the mail. It was a two sentence docuмent that said since the marriage was officiated by the SSPX it was not valid. This IS happening in the NO realm. If the FSSP does not believe there is a crisis of faith that brings about supplied jurisdiction then they should be avoided.

I am very sorry for your daughter and will pray for her and her future.
However, I have a quick question. Why did she go to FSSP priest and not the SSPX chapel/priory/priest that officiated the marriage? Irregardless of her views of the SSPX, I believe the FSSP would have to send her and her husband back to that priory/priest/chapel because it's not a protestant marriage and the SSPX would have to deal with it. In that case, couples can just hop from one church to the other and ask for annulments and say "Hey, I'm part of your church now; give me an annulment because I don't think the other church was valid." Even the SSPX recognizes the validity of most marriages done in the Conciliar CHurch as long as both parties were Catholic and all the prerequisite checkups were completed correctly.

ark of covenant · « **Reply #129 on:** October 19, 2015, 11:22:26 AM »

Just a small but significant statement. Annulments are not GRANTED but are DECLARATIONS. Just a small technical point.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #130 on:** October 19, 2015, 01:13:15 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: modofac
Can anyone name a diocese which will enter a SSPX witnessed marriage in its registry? Mine won't.

Then they are gravely derelict in their duty. Even if no harm actually comes, they are guilty of whatever harm COULD come. To give your imagination some help, picture a seminarian who was actually married getting ordained later on. All the evils that would flow from that would be this person's fault.

SSPX marriages are certainly valid. SSPX priests are valid priests, and it's the couple that confects the marriage.

But even if the Conciliar authorities disagree with the Traditionalist position and the justification thereof, they have to admit that a couple is married and go ahead and register them, so they can't get married again, etc.

Well, both Traditional and NO Canon Law state that marriages between two people, at least one of whom was baptized Catholic, are not in fact valid if not witnessed before a Catholic priest with jurisdiction.

So that's the underlying question. Do they consider the SSPX priest to have valid jurisdiction to officiate at Catholic weddings?

SSPX priests are valid. Check.
Couples confect the marriage. Check.

SSPX marriages valid? This does not necessarily follow simply from your first two points. Baptized Catholics must be married in the Catholic Church. So the OP is undoubtedly asking the question of whether the NOM treats the SSPX as being outside the Church in the context of marriage.

covet truth · « **Reply #131 on:** October 19, 2015, 03:57:44 PM »

It is a fact that the Roman Rota does not recognize SSPX marriages as valid. When this happened in our family the diocese annulled the marriage for that reason alone -- because it was an SSPX marriage. An appeal was made to Rome and they upheld the decision made by the diocese.

Another more recent instance when a wife went to the N.O. priest at her parish and asked about her marriage which was SSPX, she was told "you are not married." She will easily get an annulment if she wants one. It's just that simple I'm sorry to say.
I don't agree with it, but it is a fact.