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Author Topic: Fr. Caldern Refutes Bishop Fellay  (Read 20202 times)

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Offline Tom

Fr. Caldern Refutes Bishop Fellay
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2015, 11:00:41 AM »
Quote from: Marie Auxiliadora

Canon 927 (1983) [817 (1917)] is an invalidating law.


No it isn't. Invalidating laws apply solely to juridic acts. Unlike, say, baptism the Eucharist is not a juridic act.

Offline Maria Auxiliadora

  • Supporter
Fr. Caldern Refutes Bishop Fellay
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2015, 11:17:29 AM »
The sacraments were instituted by Jesus Christ.  There are seven of them and no more.  Each sacrament has a form and matter.  The form and the matter is the sacrament by definition.  The form the Holy Eucharist are the words of Christ and the matter is bread AND wine.  This truth is of divine and Catholic faith even if you do not believe it.  It is your theology that believes that the pope can do whatever he wants regarding the sacramental form and matter, and regard the rite of the sacrament as accidental and entirely immaterial to the validity of the sacrament that is entirely responsible for the Novus Ordo corruption in Catholic faith and the corruption of Catholic morals that flow from the corruption of faith.  God said that, “He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:19.  It should be a warning to all that the commentary on this scripture quotation referenced in Lapide’s Great Commentary says that to be “least in the kingdom of heaven” means they will not inherit the kingdom of heaven at all.

PapalSupremacy, Your private opinion is not dogma. You have no way of proving that consecrating bread without wine, or wine without bread, is valid.
 
Your protest that I cannot prove that there is no consecration would be laughable if the subject matter was not so serious.  You cannot prove that there is a consecration.  As St. Thomas says the senses are deceived,  all we rely upon is the divinely revealed truth.  That is the ground of my faith but is it not the ground for yours or Bishop Fellay’s.  I quote to you DOGMA you reply with drivel.  

I have attended from time to time when necessary, indult Masses.  It is instruction to see that the majority of the faithful in attendance will invariably enter the communion line to receive from the ciborium that was consecrated at that Latin Mass and avoid the line from which communion is distributed from a ciborium taken from the tabernacle. These Catholics have at least a correct sense of the necessity of the proper form, matter, intention, and rite that you seem ignorant or indifferent about.




Offline Tom

Fr. Caldern Refutes Bishop Fellay
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2015, 12:01:12 PM »
Quote from: Marie Auxiliadora
The form the Holy Eucharist are the words of Christ and the matter is bread AND wine.


During the Middle Ages, in England (possibly elsewhere), Fr. Adrian Fortescue writes:
So also on Good Friday they insist that the wine is not consecrated, that the priest should not say : " Haec commixtio et consecratio etc."


Offline Maria Auxiliadora

  • Supporter
Fr. Caldern Refutes Bishop Fellay
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2015, 12:01:36 PM »
The sacraments were instituted by Jesus Christ.  There are seven of them and no more.  Each sacrament has a form and matter.  The form and the matter is the sacrament by definition.  The form the Holy Eucharist are the words of Christ and the matter is bread AND wine.  This truth is of divine and Catholic faith even if you do not believe it.  It is your theology that believes that the pope can do whatever he wants regarding the sacramental form and matter, and regard the rite of the sacrament as accidental and entirely immaterial to the validity of the sacrament that is entirely responsible for the Novus Ordo corruption in Catholic faith and the corruption of Catholic morals that flow from the corruption of faith.  God said that, “He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:19.  It should be a warning to all that the commentary on this scripture quotation referenced in Lapide’s Great Commentary says that to be “least in the kingdom of heaven” means they will not inherit the kingdom of heaven at all.

Quote from: PapalSupremacy
Your private opinion is not dogma. You have no way of proving that consecrating bread without wine, or wine without bread, is invalid.
 :facepalm:
 
Your protest that I cannot prove that there is no consecration would be laughable if the subject matter was not so serious.  You cannot prove that there is a consecration.  As St. Thomas says the senses are deceived,  all we rely upon is the divinely revealed truth.  That is the ground of my faith but is it not the ground for yours or Bishop Fellay’s.  I quote to you DOGMA you reply with drivel.  

I have attended from time to time when necessary, indult Masses.  It is instruction to see that the majority of the faithful in attendance will invariably enter the communion line to receive from the ciborium that was consecrated at that Latin Mass and avoid the line from which communion is distributed from a ciborium taken from the tabernacle. These Catholics have at least a correct sense of the necessity of the proper form, matter, intention, and rite that you seem ignorant or indifferent about.


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Fr. Caldern Refutes Bishop Fellay
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2015, 12:24:08 PM »
6. Taking up now the question of the validity of the Sacrament:
According to the theology of the True Mass, the presence of Christ corporeally is absolutely necessary, in order that under the species of bread and wine His Body and Blood might be offered in expiation for sin, and the Eucharist might be received as nourishment for the soul.

And, in case there is the need for a reminder: the mystery of transubstantiation does not occur accidentally, as a matter of course, or because it is generally assumed; it must be fully intended, by one who has the power to effect it; and that which Christ and His Church have stipulated must be done, or nothing happens. In the New Rite, it is a matter of little consequence whether transubstantiation takes place at all. Proof of this contention is to be found in the following facts:....... - Fr. Wathen