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Author Topic: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer  (Read 6335 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2021, 11:00:14 PM »
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  • Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Thuc line is just as valid as the Lefebvre line.

    There is a reason why "Thuc line" is not a stamp of quality.

    There is no one "Thuc line" consecration to scrutinize -- that's the problem. There were so many, and some are shaded in mystery, especially towards the end of his life. And it's not just those HE consecrated that are the issue -- how many of them are deceased as of 2021? --  but his "line". The doubt and shadow concerning validity multiplied exponentially as you got further from Thuc himself.

    Hence the reason "Thuc line" is a flashing yellow light -- if not a red light -- for most Trads.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #16 on: July 12, 2021, 11:13:19 PM »
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  • No problem. I’ve noticed that when you are proven wrong, which is quite often, you either retreat or resort to ad hominem attacks.
    This is the soma taken by all sedes (and Feeneyites) who prefer to win by stamina rather than argument.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #17 on: July 13, 2021, 03:21:45 AM »
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  • A practical question!  Does anyone have a list of the “priests” supposedly ordained by Fr. Pfeiffer?  (I don’t believe for a minute that consecration was valid, so I won’t address him as a bishop.). I agree these men need to be avoided like the plague.  If we don’t actually know them from the “seminary,” that’s very hard to do.  There’s no knowing where or when they may show up.  I wouldn’t like to accidentally attend mass or worse, receive sacraments from them.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #18 on: July 13, 2021, 09:32:05 AM »
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  • This is the soma taken by all sedes (and Feeneyites) who prefer to win by stamina rather than argument.
    Fortunately, not all R&R people act with pride and evasiveness.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #19 on: July 13, 2021, 09:37:33 AM »
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  • The Carmona, Zamora, and Des Lauriers lines are unquestionably valid. Yes, Archbishop Thuc wasn’t perfect and neither was Bishop Mendez. Archbishop Lefebvre was certainly the best of all, but he wasn’t perfect either. He ordained some less than perfect individuals and I will leave it at that.
    The constant anti-Thuc comments is annoying at best.  I am especially annoyed with Fr Jenkins regarding it.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #20 on: July 13, 2021, 09:39:12 AM »
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  • :facepalm: And “Rome” says the Paul VI is a saint. Yeah, I really care what the heretics in “Rome” determine. :facepalm:
    :laugh1: Right?  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #21 on: July 13, 2021, 09:45:09 AM »
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  • There is a reason why "Thuc line" is not a stamp of quality.

    There is no one "Thuc line" consecration to scrutinize -- that's the problem. There were so many, and some are shaded in mystery, especially towards the end of his life. And it's not just those HE consecrated that are the issue -- how many of them are deceased as of 2021? --  but his "line". The doubt and shadow concerning validity multiplied exponentially as you got further from Thuc himself.

    Hence the reason "Thuc line" is a flashing yellow light -- if not a red light -- for most Trads.

    There are a number of very dubious and shadowy +Thuc lines for sure, but they don't get any more "quality" than +Guerard des Lauriers' line.  That man was the personal confessor to Pope Pius XII and helped draft the dogmatic declaration regarding the Assumption, co-authored the Ottaviani Intervention.  Then Bishop McKenna was no slouch either, and from there you get +Sanborn.  On the other side, +Carmona and +Zamora were also solid.  There's no question about either of these lines ... except Bishop Kelly's nonsense about the mental state of +Thuc because he made some bad decisions on whom to ordain.  In point of fact, however, imprudence is no indication that someone cannot validly confect the Sacraments.  You'd have to be so far gone that you didn't know what you were doing.  Witnesses testify that +Thuc, AFTER these consecrations, could sit at table with priests who spoke different languages and switch effortlessly between languages and keep track of separate conversations.  His autobiography (also written later) is very articulate and moving.  Basically, so long as he was aware that he was consecrating bishops, those were valid.  Nor is there any canonical requirement for there to be a witness who knows the essential form and can attest to the fact that it was correct.  If the Bishop was properly trained (and +Thuc certainly had been and had performed other consecrations prior to V2), the canonical presumption is one of validity.  Between +Thuc (who had advanced theology degrees) and +des Laurier, it's laughable to suggest that they didn't know enough about the consecration to determine whether it was valid.  Fr. Kelly made up requirements for validity out of thin air.  Derksen's books exposes him as totally dishonest, taking quotes totally out of context and even using strategic ellipses to make the quote say something different than what it originally did.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #22 on: July 13, 2021, 09:55:06 AM »
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  • Mmm...not so sure: It seems Rome doubted them enough to treat their priestly ordinations as invalid:

    “Finally, as regards those who have already received ordination in this illicit manner, or who will perhaps receive ordination from them, whatever about the validity of the orders, the Church does not nor shall it recognize their ordination, and as regards all juridical effects, it considers them in the state which each one had previously, and the above-mentioned penal sanctions remain in force until repentance.”

    https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/docuмents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19830312_poenae-canonicae_en.html

    Did you even read this quote, Sean?  Sometimes I think you need a grammar refresher.  They were prescinding in this statement from judging the validity and simply declaring them illicit and not recognized "as regards all juridical effects".


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #23 on: July 13, 2021, 10:02:20 AM »
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  • Did you even read this quote, Sean?  Sometimes I think you need a grammar refresher.  They were prescinding in this statement from judging the validity and simply declaring them illicit and not recognized "as regards all juridical effects".

    Lad-

    Logic much?

    If they prescinded, but declare they will not recognize their orders, it necessarily means those ordinations are not certainly valid (ie., they are at least doubtful), since they could not refuse to acknowledge certainly valid orders (eg., Orthodox).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #24 on: July 13, 2021, 10:07:55 AM »
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  • There are a number of very dubious and shadowy +Thuc lines for sure, but they don't get any more "quality" than +Guerard des Lauriers' line.  That man was the personal confessor to Pope Pius XII and helped draft the dogmatic declaration regarding the Assumption, co-authored the Ottaviani Intervention.  Then Bishop McKenna was no slouch either, and from there you get +Sanborn.  On the other side, +Carmona and +Zamora were also solid.  There's no question about either of these lines ... except Bishop Kelly's nonsense about the mental state of +Thuc because he made some bad decisions on whom to ordain.  In point of fact, however, imprudence is no indication that someone cannot validly confect the Sacraments.  You'd have to be so far gone that you didn't know what you were doing.  Witnesses testify that +Thuc, AFTER these consecrations, could sit at table with priests who spoke different languages and switch effortlessly between languages and keep track of separate conversations.  His autobiography (also written later) is very articulate and moving.  Basically, so long as he was aware that he was consecrating bishops, those were valid.  Nor is there any canonical requirement for there to be a witness who knows the essential form and can attest to the fact that it was correct.  If the Bishop was properly trained (and +Thuc certainly had been and had performed other consecrations prior to V2), the canonical presumption is one of validity.  Between +Thuc (who had advanced theology degrees) and +des Laurier, it's laughable to suggest that they didn't know enough about the consecration to determine whether it was valid.  Fr. Kelly made up requirements for validity out of thin air.  Derksen's books exposes him as totally dishonest, taking quotes totally out of context and even using strategic ellipses to make the quote say something different than what it originally did.

    You need to read the article I supplied and explain how Thuc’s bizarre behavior does not call into question his “consecration” of des Lauriers et al.

    At a bare minimum, he was extremely unstable and unsure of what he was doing, consecrating everyone who asked, them repeatedly running back to Rome to beg forgiveness of JPII.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #25 on: July 13, 2021, 10:14:32 AM »
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  • More on Thuc’s exploits:

    http://www.tboyle.net/Catholicism/Thuc_Consecrations.html

    “Msgr. Ngo's lineage includes the broadest conceivable spectrum of theologies likely ever to be held by men all claiming to possess valid "Catholic" priestly and episcopal orders that are derived from a single prelate alive in their lifetimes. The spectrum ranges from the head of a French Satanist sect all the way to the strictest of Traditional Roman Catholics.
    Needless to say, there are critics of both the liceity and validity of the various "Thuc lineage" episcopal consecrations. Click here for a web site comprising arguments favoring and opposing the validity of the Thuc consecrations and another web site posting a recent essay denying validity. Also of interest is "Docuмent sur la mort de Mgr Thuc"
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #26 on: July 13, 2021, 10:52:28 AM »
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  • Mmm...not so sure: It seems Rome doubted them enough to treat their priestly ordinations as invalid:
    The Vatican issued at least two clear notices about Thuc.
    Do those decrees establish at least a positive doubt about Thuc's consecrations and derivative ordinations?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #27 on: July 13, 2021, 11:16:43 AM »
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  • You need to read the article I supplied and explain how Thuc’s bizarre behavior does not call into question his “consecration” of des Lauriers et al.

    I've already explained it.  But, as per usual, you ignore everything that doesn't fit with your agenda.  To validly confect a consecration, you merely have to be aware that you're performing a consecration (and of course have the requisite matter and form).  There's zero evidence that +Thuc was not competent to perform the consecration.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #28 on: July 13, 2021, 11:19:57 AM »
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  • Lad-

    Logic much?

    If they prescinded, but declare they will not recognize their orders, it necessarily means those ordinations are not certainly valid (ie., they are at least doubtful), since they could not refuse to acknowledge certainly valid orders (eg., Orthodox).

    :facepalm: ... all the quote is saying is that the Vatican holds that, regardless of whether they were valid or not, they have no juridical effect.  This simply means that they were prescinding from doing any investigation.  More than anything it's probably a question of "I don't want to spend the time and effort to investigate the matter because we don't recognize them as having any juridical effect anyway."  It would be in the event of a "reconciliation" where one of the consecrands were readmitted into the Church that they might investigate the question of validity.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Fr. Burfit (SSPX) Condemns Bishop (?) Pfeiffer
    « Reply #29 on: July 13, 2021, 12:12:28 PM »
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  • You need to read the article I supplied and explain how Thuc’s bizarre behavior does not call into question his “consecration” of des Lauriers et al.

    At a bare minimum, he was extremely unstable and unsure of what he was doing, consecrating everyone who asked, them repeatedly running back to Rome to beg forgiveness of JPII.


    I know of a certain Archbishop who changed his mind several times, but I don’t have the indecency to condemn his actions since I give him the benefit of the doubt. I realize that he was confused by the times as was Archbishop Thuc.

    You make an awful lot of judgements, Sean. Funny you can’t seem to make a judgement on a heretic who claims to be pope even though nearly every theologian disagrees with you.  :facepalm:
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?